Why Roswell will never be solved: Redfern

Perhaps interesting for the discussion here, listen for instance what these two first hand witnesses Jesse Marcel Sr and his son Jesse Marcel Jr say about their personal experiences regarding that object and its debris that they had even hold in their hands.

Major Marcel: It Was No Aircraft!



Rare BBC The Roswell Incident Footage 2/6



Regarding possible hard evidence, this is an interesting as well pretty disturbing video about a laboratorial inquiry from some part of assumed Roswell debris.

In the video, you see amongst others DR. Roger Leir, Lt. Col. Jesse Marcel SR deceased, and his son Col. Jesse Marcel JR retired who says very interesting things about that piece of debris, further you see also Dr. Russell Vernon Clark from the University of California at San Diego.

In 2001 DR. Roger Leir, other UFO investigators and those involved in the specimen testing planned a press conference to discuss their findings, but take notice of what has happened with that press conference.
It is in fact very shocking to hear what has happened with the people involved and all the information.







[edit on 13/4/10 by spacevisitor]

reply to post by kidflash2008


Oh yeah you're right -- you already know the secret military designs and therefore know they don't fit Roswell and therefore it must be extraterrestrial aliens!

Wow the logic here amazes me. Still no comments on Schratt.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Even George Knapp admits there were no aliens at Area 51.

reply to post by spacevisitor


Apparently you have not read Nick Redfern's book on Roswell!!

Here's a good overview of Redfern's Roswell book by Professor Heiser:

www.michaelsheiser.com...

Roswell was a PAPERCLIP screw-up. The “UFO” was in reality a wingless craft launched from a U.S. base in the southwest via a high altitude Fugo balloon. These craft were occupied by either a Japanese crew (no one over five feet tall) or human unfortunates being utilized for testing purposes. Two or more of these craft crashed at Roswell and other nearby locations, explaining the multiple site / multiple date problem pointed to by skeptics as conflicting (and therefore unreliable) testimony. The bodies were human, but physically unusual to those who discovered them. The victims were small, perhaps oriental, or perhaps unfortunates who suffered from progeria or Turner’s syndrome (which involved baldness, enlarged head, and even polydactylism). The UFO explanation was floated to the public to deflect attention away from the fact that Nazis and other Japanese war criminals were on our payroll. After the late forties, the UFO scenario proved useful for misdirecting the Soviets, and so the myth was continued.

[edit on 13-4-2010 by drew hempel]

Originally posted by drew hempel
ufocon.blogspot.com...

Nick Redfern goes to town on Roswell. This is an amazing analysis!

The reason the Roswell debate is ongoing - despite literally hundreds of people having offered testimony in varying degrees (first-hand, second-hand, third-hand, etc.) is because no-one has thus far delivered the goods. And by the goods, I mean, of course, a body, a body-part, undeniable extraterrestrial wreckage, or undeniable "Roswell UFO Files" that can be proved to have originated with one or more elements of the official world back in the late-1940s.

Pretty much sums it up for me and I think and I would apply this to ufology in general but there is nothing amazing about it, it is just rendering the subject down to the bottom line which is going to be a personal choice.

Having said that there is no harm enjoying the anecdotal components.

reply to post by drew hempel


Area 51 is a test base for our aircraft.

Also you misread my post as I stated the AF would not have any reason to hide the basic disk as they already admitted to using it in the 1950s. The AF would like nothing more than to stop the Roswell story in its tracks and would release the information if the disk was one of its own. (It has bee over 60 years now.)

Have you ever been in the military? If you have, then you should know how it thinks and does its business. There are a lot of questions about the Roswell crash that just do not make any sense.

But you are a debunker, so anything I say is either ridiculed or ignored if it makes sense. I am actually more of a skeptic than you think I am. In the Roswell case, I think we have the real deal.

reply to post by kidflash2008


www.michaelsheiser.com...

First, it would be unwarranted to argue that no evidence of an experimental balloon was found at Roswell. Kal Korff’s work has demonstrated this, among others. I am not suggesting that Korff is correct on all counts—but I am suggesting that he isn’t wrong on every count. Second, while Stanton may be correct (and I do not know for sure) that “most Horton craft were actually made out of wood,” Redfern isn’t claiming that the Roswell craft was “an original Horten”—the claim is that the Horten design was brought here via PAPERCLIP scientists and other intelligence channels and adapted.

Perhaps it's the aliens who requested it be covered up ?

Something definately happened at Roswell, people need to be asking what happened not if it happened and it must be something pretty big for it to have been covered up for over 60 years, you'd think after this time it wouldn't be a threat to national security and the information would be released, even if it was a secret test project unless it's something that would turn the nation against the government.

Sadly I doubt we'll ever know what happened until the US finally gets a government which serves the people (like a true democracy should work) instead of trying to control them

reply to post by drew hempel
Firstly, I'm relieved and impressed that you've made several consecutive posts without mentioning '___'

I respect Redfern's ideas, accounts and opinions. His blog post (your link) makes sense, although I'd come to the same conclusion already. The evidence strongly suggests that something wholly unusual occurred. Nevertheless, I doubt we'll know what happened at Roswell. There are too many voices to hear the one who's telling the truth. The incident is compromised beyond rescue...

Funnily enough, the most persuasive evidence for me comes down to a video. Yeah, I should know better and the documents should take priority...still, the video of Marcel Sr describing the debris touches a nerve. He was there, his credibility is good and his sincerity is moving.

reply to post by drew hempel


Again, why would they keep the experimental balloon a secret for over 65 years? They do not have to tell us of the material, but show us the balloon like they do stealth aircraft.

I am using logic here when I ask this question. I do remember when the Air Force proudly showed off its stealth B-2 bomber. But they did not tell what the coating was in their press conference.

reply to post by drew hempel


Probably best to read the whole book and study the reports before commenting on it.

Here's another good one about the high number of UFO reports in 1947:

Alfred Loedding and the great flying saucer wave of 1947 -

by Michael D Hall & Wendy A Conners.


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/70fbb924db7b.jpg[/atsimg]


Link (pdf)

This website compiled by Jan Aldrich is also an excellent one if you're interested in the subject.

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

reply to post by karl 12


So you want me to continue reading YOUR links while you ignore mine!

haah -- and I already critiqued the first book on the 1947 UFO flap -- I continued reading it btw -- and did not find anything that could be other than

secret military craft!

Big deal!

So now I'll continue with your links.

Originally posted by drew hempel
reply to post by spacevisitor

 

Apparently you have not read Nick Redfern's book on Roswell!!

Here's a good overview of Redfern's Roswell book by Professor Heiser:

www.michaelsheiser.com...


Roswell was a PAPERCLIP screw-up. The “UFO” was in reality a wingless craft launched from a U.S. base in the southwest via a high altitude Fugo balloon. These craft were occupied by either a Japanese crew (no one over five feet tall) or human unfortunates being utilized for testing purposes. Two or more of these craft crashed at Roswell and other nearby locations, explaining the multiple site / multiple date problem pointed to by skeptics as conflicting (and therefore unreliable) testimony. The bodies were human, but physically unusual to those who discovered them. The victims were small, perhaps oriental, or perhaps unfortunates who suffered from progeria or Turner’s syndrome (which involved baldness, enlarged head, and even polydactylism). The UFO explanation was floated to the public to deflect attention away from the fact that Nazis and other Japanese war criminals were on our payroll. After the late forties, the UFO scenario proved useful for misdirecting the Soviets, and so the myth was continued.

I have his book The F.B.I Files on my bookshelf but I did not have or read that book.

I am however very aware of what he claims in there and can say to you that I don’t buy that explanation in any way as being responsible for the so called Roswell crash.

I still like the idea that the whole thing had something to do with Von Braun and his Paperclip bunch testing a near-orbital rocket out of White Sands, perhaps with a glider-type lifting body re-entry craft pod attached. And maybe they were using either apes or small cadavers (children?) to test stress forces. They were launching into the east, as you would any rocket. Which is why it didn't come down in Phoenix.

Von Braun's goal in life was to send a man to the Moon and beyond. He sold out to the Nazis because they were ahead of the game. Then he went with the U.S., because they took over.

And the reason for the secrecy still is that the American public really doesn't need to know that the first attempts at manned spaceflight, and the beginnings of NASA and our glorious space program were done by an ex-Nazi blasting child cadavers into the air in rockets.

reply to post by karl 12


O.K. so I get to this point to the book and thus far it's an interesting compilation of sighting reports. As the author states most were probably balloons but some were inexplicable. But the author neglects to mention that Fred Lee Crisman was CIA!!

The author goes on to say -- too bad Fred Crisman took Kenneth Arnold into a hoax about UFOs... but without mentioning the CIA background of Crisman there's no CONTEXT to that pre-Roswell UFO "sighting" and other other pre-Roswell "sightings." And that the CIA brought over some 1,200 Nazi rocket and mind control scientists to work on secret technology, along with working with the Japanese Unit 731 -- is just a bit too much context to neglect.

The first well-documented UFO hoax in the early files concerns two individuals by the name of Harold A. Dahl and Fred Lee Crisman. They had made the claim that six low-flying UFOs hovered over their boat on June 21st while they were looking for floating lumber off Maury Island near Tacoma, Washington. Subsequently it became known as the Maury Island Incident when they confessed under FBI interrogation to a hoax. This occurred after the Brown and Davidson Army Intelligence team was tragically killed returning from Tacoma after interviewing Dahl and Crisman. Attributed simply to an unfortunate plane crash, their accident had no real connection to the case.

reply to post by Blue Shift


That is a crazy theory!

Originally posted by Gazrok

None of this goes beyond a military cover-up any more than it supports the ETH position. And a military cover-up is logically much more likely.

And your supposition is that the military project being covered up still needs to be classified over half a century later?

So, we're left with this (supporting an ETH position)...

1. The testimony of high-ranking officers stating the recovery of otherworldly debris.
2. The official announcement of a recovered disc.
3. Flights of the debris to Air Materiel Command and Foreign Technology bases. (i.e. it wasn't OURS)...
4. The military story of Mogul and High Dive used as a coverup, and a needed explanation for alien "bodies", even though High Dive was 5 years after the event.
5. The rush to reorganize the Defense Department (National Security Act)
6. Alleged documents that spell out a timeline for the US response to the recovery, that name the individuals studying the phenomenon.
7. Right from the get-go, this was an ET event...

Is this all rock solid? No.
But not exactly the "leap of faith" you imply either...

I went into the Roswell case fully expecting to prove the Mogul explanation actually. Just that the evidence didn't fit it, and led in another direction.

[edit on 13-4-2010 by Gazrok]

The problem is the US Government has the evidence. Why they still want to keep it covered up, is the mystery.

When people say what really happened at Roswell; was it an ET crash or secret government experiment.

No. What really happened at Roswell...past ATS topics:

Ancient Astronauts or the rise of UFO's due to Nuclear Testing. Was the Roswell UFO shot down, or did it crash? Why would ET who can span the Universe, crash in the desert? Did ET phone home? Did the ET's have a giant mothership in our Solar System? Did the ET's crash on purpose? What really happened at Roswell?????

reply to post by game over man


www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

The Stargate Conspiracy exposes the most insidious, disturbing - and successful - mass manipulation of our times. Designed to bring us, hearts, minds and souls under the total control of the conspirators, this sinister programme has ruthlessly exploited our Millennial craving for signs and wonders - even hijacking the predicted return of the ancient gods. The Conspiracy... Its central focus is the belief that the gods of the ancient world were extraterrestrials who created and civilized the human race, that they’re back - and that, communicating through special chosen ones, they are actively directing the way we think. However, The Stargate Conspiracy reveals that this romantic and exciting scenario was in fact the brainchild of the West’s most powerful intellectual agencies.

Originally posted by drew hempel
reply to post by karl 12

 

O.K. so I get to this point to the book and thus far it's an interesting compilation of sighting reports.

Thanks Drew, it certainly is and there were an awful lot of UFO reports in that year - some of which describe highly unusual flight characteristics.

As for Roswell, it is a very messy one and I tend to agree with Kandinsky that the incident is 'compromised beyond rescue'.

Here are some other files you may be interested in from researcher Robert Todd - they appear to completely discredit the Roswell incident and have some interesting information about Major Marcel.


File One

File Two

File Three

File Four

Originally posted by drew hempel
O.K. so far in favor of the ETH replies we have

1) the military announced it was a flying saucer

2) it obviously wasn't a mogul balloon since so much effort was taken to move and store the parts

3) After the media covered Roswell the military was put on flying saucer alert and there was a subsequent wave of flying saucer sightings.

None of this goes beyond a military cover-up any more than it supports the ETH position. And a military cover-up is logically much more likely.

Still it's nice to see the true believers come out of the woodwork.

Of course Roswell was aliens -- what else could it be? haha.

Anyone else?

Ah great - another ATS feeble minded smart-ass. I'm sure you don't care, but flippant sarcasm generally undermines your argument and does nothing to lend credibility to your position. Believe what you want - that's all anyone here can do anyway - but I've never really figured out the preponderance of naysayers that just can't help but insult, mock, jeer, etc. while some others are attempting an intelligent dialog. It gets old, man.

reply to post by longfade


Ah no -- on the contrary -- I'm quite sensitive to the special needs of religious believers.

I actually think that ETHers should file as a religious organization -- as Paul Kimball calls it in the recent paracast interview:

The ETH Church

haha. I mean think about it - nonprofit status -- then your resources could be pooled.

And best of all there could be special rituals based on Rick Strassman's research -- you know his study also produced alien abductions.

Nick Redfern was commenting how when he wrote his Body Snatchers book on Roswell a couple other well-known "ufologists" were scared that if they wrote such a book which goes against the Church of ETH then they would lose their lecture speaker status for the alien conferences.

Still you gotta wonder how long it can play out -- I mean how long have the Trekkies been going?

reply to post by karl 12


That's some excellent cranky expose investigating. First you get the radar balloon versus weather balloon expose. Then you get the Robertson Panel as cover-up of a higher level continuation of UFO sightings -- plus the fact that "ufo" for the military does not mean extraterrestrial aliens. Then you get the dirt on Marcel -- how he's lied about his military training. Then you get the "wrong way" Randles expose -- which brings you back full circle to how the author started off on Randles promoting the Roswell Myth.

I listened to Randles on theparacast recently and then started a thread on that show on their forum. No one seemed to disagree much with what I had wrote.

Oh yeah I was mentioning Joseph P. Farrell's new book ROSWELL AND THE REICH!

www.theparacast.com...

I give the link on that thread -- a great interview. He was on coasttocoast after that I think....

yeah here it is --

www.youtube.com...

Roswell and the Reich.

[edit on 13-4-2010 by drew hempel]