Why Roswell will never be solved: Redfern

Originally posted by FireMoon

The truth about Nazi science is. Aside from the rocket programme, everything else, post 1942, was pretty ad hoc and often run by a very small staff who were engaged in totally whacked out research, in an attempt to gain favour, if they succeeded, with Himmler and Hitler.

aboutfacts.net...

It turned out that the Nazis had built a secret underground base during the war in a mine. The name of the mine was the Wencelas Mine and was located in the Sudenten mountains between Poland and the Czech border. The entire complex was built by slave labor and sealed before we could get into it. The mine was located near the Polish village of Ludwikowice. Before the end of the war, photo reconnaissance photographed a strange structure above the mine. It received the name the Flytrap, due to it's odd shape. It was circular, hollow and about 12 feet high with open arches all round it. Many people claim that it was the place where the Nazis were testing their antigravity engine in round, saucer type craft. One person claims to have debunked this saying that it was nothing more than a cooling tower. This doesn't explain the channels under the structure with all the high output electrical lines going there.

reply to post by drew hempel


Yes and it was to build rockets. Your point being?

let me point out another glaring error in Ferrell's thinking.
I believe I’ve answered this in some respects with my Kecksburg and Roswell speculations. But to expand on it a bit, Paperclip was but the tip of the iceberg in post-war Nazi penetration of various departments of the American government. We must remember that long before President Truman had even signed the National Security Act of 1947, which created the CIA and NSA, their civilian character and charter was already severely compromised by the fact that the CIA’s predecessor, the OSS, had taken over, lock stock and barrel, General Reinhard Gehlen’s Fremde Heere Ost, or “Foreign Armies East”, the Wehrmacht’s military intelligence on the Eastern front, inside of the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe.

The truth is and i apologise because, right now, the guy's name escapes me is that. The guy the American's turned to, it is now known had lied to Hitler over several major military issues. He actually helped the Allies win the war, because he wasn't a Nazi and by, 1941 realised that Hitler was going to destroy Germany. I would guess the reason this was kept under wraps, as it were, for so long was simple. The USA did import a good number of card carrying Nazi's and had they discovered this guy had betrayed the Third Reich, they might well have taken their revenge on him. It makes a great sensationalist story that the CIA was set up under the auspices of an ex Nazi, but it simply isn't true.

Originally posted by drew hempel
ufocon.blogspot.com...

Nick Redfern goes to town on Roswell. This is an amazing analysis!

Redfern is just doing what all of the "popular" authors have done for decades, make money off the gullible. Only the gullible, the believers, keep the myth of Roswell alive. If you employ logic, common sense, and reason, you don't bother with Roswell.

I don't bother with Roswell, it's a waste of time.

reply to post by FireMoon


www.globalsecurity.org...

The Germans, worried by the damage done to their experimental factory at Peenemunde (and at Friedrichshafen, which had already been bombed) decided to put their rocket production underground and to move their experimental work to Poland....The most important V-2 production sites were the central plants, called Mittelwerk, in the southern Harz Mountains near Nordhausen, where an abandoned gypsum mine provided an underground cavern large enough to house extensive facilities in secrecy. Slave labor from Dora carved out an underground factory in the abandoned mine, which extended a mile into the hillside.

Sorry but the rockets weren't built at Wenceslas

But i do know that the Wenceslas mine is next to - and around - the Flytrap. I found another interesting thing: The Wenceslas mine was not for coal like mentioned everywhere but for Uranium...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Sorry but the rockets weren't built at Wenceslas


No, they weren't, nothing was ever really manufactured there, partly because of the continual flooding, partly because of sabotage by the slave labour workforce and partly because, by the time it was operational the Russkis were almost on top of it.

The Western complex has umpteen bits of old kit lying around in it. The Eastern one has virtually nothing and is, of the most part flooded. It's a wonderful blank canvas, on which, those who wish to can invent anything they like and pull out a couple of old party members, who worked elsewhere and then speculate..

What it was really all about was simple. By 1943 the Nazis under Hitler had drawn up a secret contingency plan, for carrying the war on from the Mountains of Southern Bavaria across the border into the Sudetenland.The whole area is riddled with the remains of grand plans to build some sort of impenetrable barrier of fortifications and munitions factories etc. It was just another of the mad plans the Nazis came up with when desperation began to set in.

See the huge problem i have with it all is a simple one. The Nazis,by their very nature, were inveterate record keepers, more often than not, in triplicate. Yet, no-one can produce a single piece of paper to actually back the claims of their exotic technology, past that we already know of. That documentary evidence that has been presented has been, so far, shown to be fake.


It's human nature to big yourself up to a conquering regime in order to extract your ass from the mess you're in. I've no doubt many Nazi scientists made all sorts of claims in order to acquire a cushy job in the USA. I'd guess, it wasn't long before the Yanks worked out a lot of what they were claiming was just, pure moonshine. However, they had no intention of letting the Russkis find that out.

reply to post by FireMoon


Got any names yet -- there's plenty of documentation to dispute your claim that the CIA was not set up under the auspices of an ex-Nazi. The U.S. imported over 1200 Nazi scientists and helped many others escape to South America. The CIA then worked with the Nazis in the massacres -- genocidal -- in South and Central America. Noam Chomsky's book "Political Economy of Human Rights: Washington Connection and Third World Fascism" is an excellent source on the topic.

The truth is and i apologise because, right now, the guy's name escapes me is that. The guy the American's turned to, it is now known had lied to Hitler over several major military issues. He actually helped the Allies win the war, because he wasn't a Nazi and by, 1941 realised that Hitler was going to destroy Germany. I would guess the reason this was kept under wraps, as it were, for so long was simple. The USA did import a good number of card carrying Nazi's and had they discovered this guy had betrayed the Third Reich, they might well have taken their revenge on him. It makes a great sensationalist story that the CIA was set up under the auspices of an ex Nazi, but it simply isn't true.

Are you referring to Werner von Braun by chance? Or....?

[edit on 14-4-2010 by drew hempel]

reply to post by drew hempel


Ok here is my take on Roswell for what it is worth.

We do not need to find evidence more than we already have to prove that TPTB are lying to this day about Roswell. For sure I do not know what crashed but I do know what didn’t crash.

The whole thing starts with this

(RAAF Captures Flying Saucer On ranch in Roswell Region.)

Now for certain we know it was not any type of balloon, this was personal from the most elite air squadron in the world, the only one that carried nuclear arms. The very idea that Blanchard the commanding officer could misinterpret tin foil and balsa wood for an interstellar craft is ludicrous in the extreme. Can you imagine TPTB then going on to promote him to a 4 star general? Get real.

So no balloon but something very extraordinary.

Some paperclip project??

Well no not really, why?? Because they where not looking for it.

Simple as that, if you where head of such a project and you have something go missing what would be the first thing you did. You would be on to every base that could possibly have a report of something going down. For sure there is no other possibility. So it was something that no one in the USA knew about. Otherwise Marcel would have turned up at the site with a team to secure the area.

Nazis from South America

Oh please if this where the case where is the ongoing project to go after them. You think that the USA or any part of the allies of WW2 are going to let them infiltrate the only nuclear base and not mount a very large assault force 2 years after the end of WW2 if this where even remotely possible. Sorry not a snow balls chance in hell.

So that leaves us with very extraordinary.

reply to post by MAC269


The thing about the Nazi connection is the U.S. brought over 1200 Nazi scientists to work in the U.S. on mind control and secret propulsion technology.

Also the U.S. helped leading Nazi war criminals and scientists to escape to South America.

Later the U.S. worked with these Nazis in South America to commit genocidal wars -- in Bolivia, Paraguay, Uruguay, Chile, Brazil, Argentina, currently in Colombia and then in Guatemala, El Salvador and Nicaragua. Pretty much throughout the Western Hemisphere.

So Chomsky documents this as I've mentioned. There's plenty of links about the Gehlen -- Dulles Brothers connection which created the CIA.

The CIA IS the Nazis.

So whether it was from the Nazis or from a secret U.S. collaboration with the Nazis -- the military is highly compartmentalized. Just because one part of the military does not know about it does not preclude it from happening.

reply to post by drew hempel


Ok so you are going with Nazis = CIA and from South America.

Just off the top of my head two things seam to contradict this because although Roswell 1947 is most likely the best known it was by no means the first.

So first I would site the Battle of LA in 1942 what ever that was the only thing they shot down after 1500 rounds was one of there own. This was well before any possibility of it being anything to do with the Nazis and you really do have to look at the whole picture.

The second is the flights over DC in 1952 do you think that the CIA = Nazis would be so blatant as that in board day light.

I did say only two so I will leave out Aurora Texas in the 1890’s

I admit that the Nazis S/A connection is appealing if you totally rule out ET but not if they had that capability in 1947 and have been bussing around in mile long ships since they would have taken the whole planet over by now. As I said you have to take it all into account.

99.9% = chance that the Roswell Incident was ETs.

.01% = chance that the Roswell Incident was anything other than ETs.

reply to post by Viper2

im interested to know your reasoning behind that. What makes you 99.9% certain it was ET?

Well, guys, regardless of the question if Roswell was an ET event, I think everyone concurs the nazi link is absolute nonsense. Heck, I'd even believe the Mogul story before I go with this crap!

Originally posted by drew hempel
reply to post by jclmavg

 

Oh wait -- I forgot that a big black equilateral triangle flew over our garage.

I don't doubt your sighting Drew. I doubt your inference.

And heck, I *wish* UFOs were merely ours, for the alternative I find far too dangerous and scares me. I don't want aliens flying around here while we have seemingly no defense against them. Yet the ETH seems to fit the foot, unfortunately.

[edit on 14-4-2010 by jclmavg]

Ha! I SAW a big black triangle craft UP CLOSE -- yes this technology is still classified!

Ok, so your contention is that we've had these black triangles (or the tech that enables them) for over 50 years (and of our own, terrestrial design), but STILL haven't made them a major part of our defense, or expanded the tech to the private sector?

Now who's making a leap of faith....

My point is that there is NO technology of our own make, from 1947, that would STILL be classified...it'd be way past obsolete...so whatever was recovered, is still worthy of classification and coverup, and not something we came up with....

[edit on 14-4-2010 by Gazrok]

Originally posted by Gazrok


My point is that there is NO technology of our own make, from 1947, that would STILL be classified...it'd be way past obsolete...

Or, would it be too potentially disruptive? I'm thinking Tesla stuff here, for example. I think it's a distinct possibility that there are technologies from that far back that are still classified. Of course, I can't prove it.

Or, would it be too potentially disruptive? I'm thinking Tesla stuff here, for example. I think it's a distinct possibility that there are technologies from that far back that are still classified. Of course, I can't prove it.

Possible, sure, but likely? Our military is usually a couple of decades beyond private sector tech (though I'd imagine that gap to be shrinking since the 80's)...I can't see them just mothballing a useful technology.... Having grown up in and around that industry, they are quick to seize upon any useful idea, even the outlandish....

reply to post by Gazrok


I don't disagree. The problem is (channeling Rumsfeld), "We don't know what we don't know".

I don't think it's beyond the realm of feasibility that there are technologies currently available far beyond what we believe exists. As Ben Rich, the guy from Lockheed's Skunk Works said:

We already have the means to travel among the stars, but these technologies are locked up in black projects and it would take an act of God to ever get them out to benefit humanity

Anything you can imagine we already know how to do.

Link

Of course, none of that speaks to the source. Is it ET? I'm not prepared to say that, but it doesn't stop me from looking.

I submit this regarding Roswell: Inventor of the Jet brought to Wright Field in 1947 as a possible puzzle piece previously unknown to me, and appreciated.

I do believe it's in the military's and PTB's best interests to not completely discount the possibility of incorporation of ET technology, even if they know it to be complete hooey. It's perhaps another blind alley to throw everyone off the real trail. Allowing the air of mystery and fantastic tales into the wild only further obfuscates the reality, whatever it is. And if you don't want anyone to know the reality, it's a pretty good strategy.

reply to post by Gazrok

The military, via its own press release, stated it had a recovered disc. That is something right there, in black and white.

Having the public believe in flying saucers in the 50's and 60's helped the military to operate top secret spy planes - U2 and SR-71 Blackbird in secret. Could it have been the same cover story for Mogul to prevent the Soviet's from learning about Mogul, but then retracted in favour of a more down-to-earth cover-up - an ordinary weather balloon. At least this would have provided the flying saucer explanation to use as a cover-up for top-secret military planes later on.

[edit on 14-4-2010 by john124]

reply to post by drew hempel


No I'm referring to the head of Wehrmacht intelligence who was the guy who set up the CIA and who , in the final analysis, was a traitor to the Third Reich. I've got a mental block past the name Adenhauer and it wans't him.

No-one doubts, with half a brain anyway, that so long as you hated commies the Yanks would look after you. After all, we're in Afghanistan today, cos of that very policy in the 1980s.

However, anyone who claims that every scientist that was smuggled out under Paperclip was a card carrying Nazi , is telling a whopper. A good number of them were foreign nationals who, were blackmailed into working for the Nazis.

You want a classic example? How many people are aware that. When the Japanese surrendered , the Allies were so short of man power that, in some countries in the Far East. They gave the Japanese soldiers back their weapons and used them to police the local populations?

I've seen and I'm sure many others on here have, the most horrific films of Nazi experiments. However, the moment you get to the more *out there* claims no film and that to me, speaks volumes about the true level of research that was taking place.

Nick might be right about his glider with Japanese little people, my problem with that explanation is a simple one. There's no real reason for it to exist. It wouldn't have proved anything you couldn't have replicated, at a lot less cost, in a wind tunnel with a model. Before the days of computer modelling the step from the wind tunnel, involved, asking some highly qualified and extremely valuable pilot, to risk their life testing an idea. If they survived, their experience and understanding of the minutiae of flight, were absolutely vital to the project.

One thing that does tend to be forgotten amongst all this kudos given to Nazi scientists and their amazing technology. The Ruskkis beat them to it when it came to launching a rocket into space.

I don't normally venture into these threads, but I've done a bit of casual reading up on some of the evidence. I don't proclaim to be any expert, but there is something I have pondered, quite a lot recently actually.

What if the alien theory for UFO's is put forward as a distraction to lead away from military projects?

For some reason, this makes a lot of sense to me. I don't think we are the only life in this universe, by any means. But I definitely question the alien link to UFO sightings. After all, it is much easier to pretend you don't know than to face questions regarding superior technology.

I don't have any facts to back this up, but am willing to consider all sides to the story. Unfortunately, it has been so long that anyone planning a cover-up has had ample opportunity to provide misleading "facts" and theories. The power of the red herring is strong

Regarding the idea that they should have released information by now if it was a military craft, do you really think the government/military is going to just come out and say "Yes, we lied to you. Here's the proof. But don't worry, you can still trust us."?
I think that would be more absurd than intentionally pushing an alien theory, through proxies or various means.

Because right now, it's just a few "nutcase's" (like me, and probably you ) who actually bother thinking about Roswell. But if you declassified information, everyone will be thinking about how they were lied to...

Just my idea's, but I'd need to do much more research if I was trying to say this is fact. Also, when I first started reading the thread, I thought I'd mention the genius that was Nikola Tesla, and his research into creating a flying machine. How long was it since his death, when his work and ideas were taken, till Roswell? 1943-1947. About 4 years for a prototype??? Just a thought