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Why Roswell will never be solved: Redfern

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posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 06:08 PM
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Originally posted by drew hempel
www.youtube.com...

Roswell and the Reich.

Oh puh-lease, and this is the unassailable truth you are promoting? please hold on while I laugh and roll over the floor.


What's next? You're right and UFO "believers" are wrong because you have an MA degree?




posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 06:14 PM
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reply to post by drew hempel
 


Use the word believer to classify us all as one big group. I am skeptical of most cases like the majority here. When I find a very good case to support the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis (ETH), I show the evidence to defend it. As even the name suggests, it is a HYPOTHESIS, not a belief. Like any hypothesis it needs to be proven. We are looking for that proof, and finding much evidence out there to support it.

I guess Stanton Friedman was right about the debunker all along. And that is a shame.



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 06:26 PM
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reply to post by kidflash2008
 


So far on this thread there's been absolutely no engagement with the specific information I've presented. If you have any evidence for extraterrestials by all means it's relevant to Roswell since that's the holy grail of the extraterrestial hypothesis.



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 06:30 PM
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reply to post by jclmavg
 


I would definitely ignore Joseph P. Farrell's "Roswell and the Reich" research because it's a brand new book with new evidence giving details about the Nazi connection to Roswell.

Since Farrell presents new details connecting Roswell to the Reich it's not worth even mentioning -- much less listening to or reading about -- because we KNOW the truth already.

The truth is what is left over after we ignore all the other information:

Michael Schratt

Mac Tonnies

Joseph P. Farrell

Nick Redfern's Body Snatchers in the Desert book

All links I've posted on this thread that should be ignored so as to safeguard the true believers.

I'm here for you people -- I promise not to give any more links about Roswell because it's a big internet out there.

But if you give links I'll be happy to read them and comment on them as I have already done.

As for others' limitations -- that's fine -- we all have limitations.

[edit on 13-4-2010 by drew hempel]



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 06:38 PM
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reply to post by jclmavg
 


www.abovetopsecret.com...



He detailed a number of issues surrounding the Roswell story which suggest that the downed craft was of terrestrial, but non-American, origin. For instance, Farrell noted that witnesses, who saw the Roswell debris, observed numbers on the wreckage. This, he surmised, suggests an Earthly origin since it is highly unlikely that ETs would be using our symbols for there numeric system. On the subject of the beings allegedly recovered from the crash, he asserted that, based on the vast majority of the accounts, there is "nothing that compels to the fact that these were extraterrestrial beings. We simply have very odd looking humans." Apparently, this idea was shared by the Army personnel who arrived at the scene, since Farrell said that one witness claims that the recovery team attempted to speak Japanese and German to the crash victims. Taking these aspects of the event into account, Farrell advanced his alternative theory that the downed craft at Roswell was really a version of the erstwhile Nazi project known as The Bell. According to his research, work on the Bell can be traced from Germany to Argentina following World War II. To that end, he revealed that immediately following the Roswell crash, the US Army re-opened the security classification files of the former Nazis that were brought to America via Project Paperclip. Additionally, he cited the testimony of Col. Philip Corso, who Farrell contends, "hints, repeatedly throughout his book, that there is some apparent Nazi 'look' to the technology that they had recovered." Ultimately, Farrell theorized that the displaced Nazis were "sending a message to their former enemy that 'we have a technology that you cannot touch.'"



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 06:49 PM
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Sorry Drew, but the whole "Nazis had this uber technology" does not fly. There is no factual evidence for this, so I would consider Farrel's conclusions crackpotish. And Farrel is quite selective, like citing Corso to support the Nazi hypothesis when Corso himself clearly argues for an ET origin. Or like saying Roswell witnesses reported seeing regular numerical numbers on the wreckage when the actual witnesses made it clear that these symbols "were written out like you would write numbers in columns, but they didn't look like the numbers we use at all."



In short, Farrel is selective, guilty of quote-mining and misrepresents.

[edit on 13-4-2010 by jclmavg]



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 06:52 PM
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reply to post by jclmavg
 


Michael Schratt gives the evidence that the Nazis had this technology. That's why I posted the link to Michael Schratt.

Too bad the true believers are too afraid to actually comment on the details I've posted.

Notice how when someone else posts a link I give a comment with a detailed response -- a quote from the link they gave?

It's not that hard people. Seriously try it!

www.reflectionsinthenight.com...

Now this link is from a woman who claims she WAS a grey alien CREATED by the Nazis!!

Again just another angle to consider but at least there's a bit more evidence than for any extraterrestrials.



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 07:01 PM
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reply to post by drew hempel
 


Wait, there's more:


File Six

File Seven

File Eight

File Nine



I don't necessarily agree with everything in the files but I do trust Robert Todd's judgement when it comes to government documentation and he makes some quite astute points about the Schulgen and Bolender memos (as well as doing some pretty exceptional work uncovering the FOIA Marcel documents).

I don't know if you've ever read the book 'Clear Intent' by Barry Greenwood and Lawrence Fawcett but here's what they had to say about the work of Robert Todd.




These folders are the background documentation for the book, CLEAR INTENT, co-authored with Lawrence Fawcett and the organizational files for Citizens Against UFO Secrecy (CAUS) from 1984 through 1998.
A substantial portion of the records are copies, and sometimes originals, of data acquired by researcher Robert Todd of Ardmore, Pennsylvania, who has had a huge impact on public knowledge of government UFO investigations from the mid-1970s until the late-1990s. Todd's legacy on this issue cannot be understated. Through his intricate knowledge of government agencies and their activities, he was able to pave the way to unearth more important records on this subject than any other investigator.

Link



As for labelling people 'believers' I think its just as bad as other people using the term 'denialists' -to my mind there are quite a few UFO cases out there which appear to defy rational explanation so its probably best to keep an open mind -I'm sure some reports are down to 'secret military aircraft' (and I will listen to that interview you posted) but I also suspect many are not and remain a complete mystery.



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 07:01 PM
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Rolling on the floor again, where's my ass?

Seriously, you believe that sort of nonsense and have the nerve to call others "believers"? My oh my.



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 07:11 PM
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reply to post by jclmavg
 


Oh wait -- I forgot that a big black equilateral triangle flew over our garage.

That's right -- I had a VERY close encounter with secret military technology using secret propulsion.

This stuff is real -- it's military -- and the technology is based on electrogravitic energy from Tesla's research and T.T. Brown -- and Nazi scientist building on Tesla.

Yeah it's real -- plasma electrogravitic craft from the military. I could have hit it with a rock but didn't want to have "missing time" so I didn't take my eyes off it.



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 07:51 PM
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reply to post by karl 12
 


Yeah I look forward to the Fawcett interview. I got it going right now. So I stopped the Ian Punnett interview of Joseph Farrell on Roswell and the Reich as I've listened to it before.

I've looked at Clear Intent before but don't remember much details. Still that Cow Turd zine is great -- or whatever Cow Flop? haha.

Anyway Roswell is like some legalistic byzantine Dungeons and Dragons module --

"denialists" is for people who claim something which is obviously real -- blatantly real -- to not have happened -- like AIDS or the Holocaust.

But there's nothing like that for Roswell -- no one has evidence for extraterrestrials at Roswell yet those who BELIEVE in the extraterrestrial angle IGNORE the loads of evidence that

1) the military promotes the E.T.s to cover-up secret military technology

2) This technology was based on a covert promotion of the fascists from Japan and Germany

3) Etc.



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 07:58 PM
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if "aliens" did lose the ability to soar near Roswell i hope they rose well and got better.



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by drew hempel
reply to post by jclmavg
 


www.abovetopsecret.com...



He detailed a number of issues surrounding the Roswell story which suggest that the downed craft was of terrestrial, but non-American, origin. For instance, Farrell noted that witnesses, who saw the Roswell debris, observed numbers on the wreckage. This, he surmised, suggests an Earthly origin since it is highly unlikely that ETs would be using our symbols for there numeric system. On the subject of the beings allegedly recovered from the crash, he asserted that, based on the vast majority of the accounts, there is "nothing that compels to the fact that these were extraterrestrial beings. We simply have very odd looking humans." Apparently, this idea was shared by the Army personnel who arrived at the scene, since Farrell said that one witness claims that the recovery team attempted to speak Japanese and German to the crash victims. Taking these aspects of the event into account, Farrell advanced his alternative theory that the downed craft at Roswell was really a version of the erstwhile Nazi project known as The Bell. According to his research, work on the Bell can be traced from Germany to Argentina following World War II. To that end, he revealed that immediately following the Roswell crash, the US Army re-opened the security classification files of the former Nazis that were brought to America via Project Paperclip. Additionally, he cited the testimony of Col. Philip Corso, who Farrell contends, "hints, repeatedly throughout his book, that there is some apparent Nazi 'look' to the technology that they had recovered." Ultimately, Farrell theorized that the displaced Nazis were "sending a message to their former enemy that 'we have a technology that you cannot touch.'"


Maybe Ferrell should have done his homework properly, The Bell experiment killed 5 of the techs working on it and was dropped because even the Nazis were a tad averse to killing their own scientists.

The intellectual dishonesty that goes on from people who are the first to jump on any claim it might not be man made, is astounding.

Foo fighters were all these Nazi bells. What they don;t mention is that. Foo fighters buzzed both sides, ex Luftwaffe officers, post WW2 asked the allies if they were theirs?. Foo fighters appeared in the Pacific Theatre, over water. The Nazi Bell experiment managed to levitate a ball directly above the power source, In doing so they killed their own techs. So truth is , one Nazi bell totally tied to one site in, from memory, Bohemia. However for the purposes of debunking, lets just ignore the actual facts and make up any old tat and pass it off as an investigative truth.

The links Kark 12 gives are interesting. only one problem. It's documented that ,the flyers and ground staff at Roswell had a mickey taking dialogue going on for a long time with the balloon people, who were always losing them. Again, that intellectual dishonesty raising its' head again. So if the guy is willing to leave out, a key piece of information, should anyone believe anything else he has to say?

See, it cracks me up, it really does. The same people who refuse to even countenance the possibility of visitations from elsewhere, in one breath. Are, in the same breath, only to willing to intellectually bend over and take it up the jacksie and without question, imbue the Nazi's with this mythical status that put them decades ahead of the everyone else in science.

The truth is, barring the swept wing and a gimbal system for rocketry, they were no more advanced than either the Brits or the Russkis. People tend to forget that, Operation Paperclip was far more political than practical. It was launched because they were determined to stop these people falling into Russian hands. The vast majority of those secreted over to the USA were no more talented or important than glorified clerks.

You can't have it both ways. You can't launch into some long diatribe about how "It's only one person's word", when the truth is . The whole Nazi saucer explanation is based on the testimony of one guy, who swapped sides, twice, post WW2.


So a bit more honesty from both sides would, maybe , help all round? It's no real use to spend endless hours, prating to camera or writing tomes about the Mogul balloon with its' radar train when , by the USA's own records , retrieved via the FOIA show, the one they claim they lost and was mis identified as a UFO, was never actually launched due to adverse weather conditions. That's there in the records for all to see. If a hole that size in Marcel's story was found, we'd never hear the end of it.

I agree with Nick, we will probably, never know the answer to Roswell. However it does a damn good job of wasting 1000s of hours of investigation time that, could be put to better use on cases where there might be some real return. In that sense, all these years later, it's still doing its', disinformation job, really rather well.



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 08:11 PM
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reply to post by Gazrok
 


KUDOS thanks for that breakdown... Wwll said, very well said



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 08:27 PM
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reply to post by FireMoon
 


Maybe you have not read Joseph P. Farrell's book that is completely on the Nazi Bell? SS BROTHERHOOD AND THE BELL.

www.americanantigravity.com...



I should also stress that I speak more about the Kammlerstab and its “method of operation” in the prequel to The SS Brotherhood of the Bell, a book called Reich of the Black Sun. Again, at the risk of being redundant, I don’t view these as “separated” projects but as interrelated projects, since they bear the signature of the Kammlerstab’s modus operandi of mapping out technology trees and putting into place the practical projects necessary to bring their ideas to fruition. Anyone approaching the subject of Nazi secret weapons has to bear this in mind, that while the various projects – sound cannon, wind and tornado cannon, disintegration rays and death rays, and lasers, grasers, EMP devices, endothermic bombs and fuel-air bombs – all of it, is not a messy or inefficient squandering of resources or duplication of effort, since these projects were coordinated at an extremely high level by the SS, which oversaw all patents applications in the Reich.



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 08:38 PM
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It's a good story and that's all it is. His evidence is as badly researched as they come. it owes far more to Harbinson and his Inception novels than it does to facts. In fact, parts of it seem almost as if they were lifted from Harbinson's writings

A couple of the surviving project members have done interviews on camera and they make no such claims. In fact they make it plain what a total disaster it really was.

Ferrell made a nice few bob, I'm sure, but truth? yeah.. right..



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 09:04 PM
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Really? care to point out what specific pieces of evidence?



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 09:10 PM
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reply to post by FireMoon
 


www.americanantigravity.com...



Harbison’s Projekt Saucer novels are another case in point, as you observe. But what I find very interesting with his novels is that there is no real parallel with the Bell, while there are plenty of parallels with the Coanda Effect and Schuaberger devices. But Harbison is interesting precisely because his novels present the view that this type of research was continued by some independent group of Nazis after the war. Then there’s Martin Caidin’s novel The Mendelov Conspiracy, in which, again, an independent group of somewhat cranky scientists pursues their independent technological development of saucers.



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 09:56 PM
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This is intriguing, then, for yet other reasons, for as I make clear in SS Brotherhood, Debus was an ardent Nazi, and nearly created chaos in the Bell project by denouncing a fellow engineer to the Gestapo. One of the firms involved with the Bell, the Allgemeine Elektricitäts Gemeinshaft, A.G., had to intervene to free the man whom Debus had denounced to allow the project to continue. It is due to this intervention that we know that the Bell was given its own unique classification, the highest classification, in fact, in the Third Reich, a classification that made the Bell not only a Geheime Reichsache but Kriegsenscheidend, or “War Decisive”, a classification found in absolutely no other secret project in all of Nazi Germany, including its successful fuel-air, and its atom bomb, projects.

From the Interview with Ferrell. The Nazi A bomb was all but abandoned post the sinking of the ferry in the Norwegian fjord and the bombing of Heavy Water plant. In actual fact, one of the chief reasons the Nazis really weren't that bothered about Atomic weapons was because, it was seen as based on "Jewish Science". Therefore in the Nazi's eyes it was wholly suspect, to even work on such projects and required, the SS commanders to lie to their chain of command. Ergo it was, after about, 1942, virtually completely ignored and received virtually no funding. Therefore, to quite some degree, we can actually thank the fates that, because out of simple political dogma, the Nazis never really did get that close to developing the nuclear bomb.Military analysts have mentioned several times. That had the Nazis not been so hidebound by the doctrine of race hate, they might well have beaten the Allies to the Nuclear trigger, as it were.

Ferrell, falls for the same naive belief that the Nazi war machine was some well oiled vast complex all pulling in the same direction. The truth is, it was so damn riddled with self interest, political dogma, profit taking and personal feuds, it's amazing they managed to last as long as they did.

I'll give you a classic example of what an absolute mess the German research and design establishment was in. When the Italians withdrew from the Axis pact the Nazis were scared that they powerful Italian battle fleet would fall into Allied hands. They ordered it sunk and to this end they sent Heinkel 111s equipped with, fly by wire, missiles to sink it. They were that accurate that one battleship was sunk when the Heinkel crew member sent a missile down it's funnel. When the crew returned they were told to lie in their report and claim it was sunk by traditional bombs by their commanders. Why? Well simple, because the commanders were scared witless if Hitler and the Nazis found out how successful it had been they would divert huge resources into the project and leave the Luftwaffe in an even more perilous situation, vis a vie, aircraft, than they already were. As far as i know, the only other instance of this weapon being used, successfully, was in the sinking of a British destroyer, off the Normandy invasion beaches.

Several Nazis scientists really did believe that the world was contained in a sphere and because of this. They really actually did spend a ridiculous amount of time, attempting to bounce radar reflections off this *sphere* in order to attempt to spy on what was happening in England. So the *over the horizon* radar stories are, to some extent, not all granted, based on the SS and their scientists actually, being a bit mad.

The truth about Nazi science is. Aside from the rocket programme, everything else, post 1942, was pretty ad hoc and often run by a very small staff who were engaged in totally whacked out research, in an attempt to gain favour, if they succeeded, with Himmler and Hitler.



posted on Apr, 13 2010 @ 10:02 PM
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Well, for sure the proof of the cover up was in Jesse's hand in that famous photo. It has been examined and I firmly think it proves what we all know (or some want to know) and thats a disc crashed there and there were victims. Be them from space or Germany...it happened!

In the day the ARMY owned up to it but changed their story.





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