Since when did deep thinkers become the crazy people?

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by yesIAM

 

originally, religion was not called religion, it was called the law. it was the same thing as the court system we have today, with the exception of citing an otherworldly authority as the basis for its construction. now we pretend our codified laws did not originally stem from the belief of an ultimate moral authority or authorities, outside humankind, and pretend the whole thing was our idea and has descended without flaw, from man's own inborn moral compass! ah how soon we forget our own history.

EXACTLY.

In order to understand why it exists, and even, some of the details that are more hard to swallow, a person needs to educate themselves on they way the world was. They way people were. The horrific things that were going on.

Originally posted by yesIAM
reply to post by CHA0S

 

Its a true pleasure to read your posts. I as well, feel ever so close to the universe after I let go of believing in a controlled god or system. I have no bars around me anymore. I look at everything so much different now.

Your posts seem very shallow, lacking detail or openness. The statements and facts that you are using or confined, finite and very main-stream.
Yet, here you are, "judging" and lecturing on a huge piece of humanity, that has many, many more layers and aspects than you seem to be aware of.

Again, very mainstream. Touching on the Catholic Church's interactioe with a handful of specific scientists, or the details of evil acts, perpetrated by PEOPLE whom were involved with the church, and the Bible.

Although this stuff is troubling, this is also just a fraction of the "reality" surrounding religion and the Bible.

But, you seem to have latched onto it, and are enjoying the bitterness, and the reactions you receive.

If a person only delves into one side of an argument, and cannot open themselves to ALL data, their position will be "crumbly" at best.

Trust me, I was surprised to find out that strong Christian country folk that reject or degrade anyone not white, male, straight, speak-right-English, Christian, strictly-meat-eating, American, and just human still exist. They strongly reject anyone or anything that not as "great" as they are because it's just the way they've been raised.

You can't change a stubborn idiot.

Take it from whom it comes.

Not sure I agree that religion was law. Before religion, we had morals and as Plato argued morals were law because we as humans are pack animals and need to get along with each other, especially in cities - hence the morals.

Interesting title "When did deep thinkers become crazy people?", I would argue perversely that being shallow is massively underrated! I look at young children who have a very simple outlook on Life and get lots of pleasure from Life, some of which we lose as we dig deeper.

What's behind the pleasure of climbing a tree? I don't know but I don't need to know to get the simple pleasure.

Originally posted by yesIAM
reply to post by undo

 

OK, I would have to debate this. Here is a theory. If you believe that god created the universe. Which if you believe is jesus, then we know you do. Here is a question for you. If god created everything, would that not make him everything? Thus making him the positive & negative force since he is everything? So why would it not be equally both? And would that not make us god. if he created everything?

NOW you are getting somewhere! But, more to the point, we are a PART of God.

We have a Universe of Positives and Negatives.
We have Free Will.

Our "job" is to find our way, and make our own paths.

And, just because everything is God, does not mean that it isn't going to hurt if I put my hand on a burning stove that is ALSO a part of God!

But, nothing, not even God, keeps me from doing just that, is I chose to do it. And, if I chose to do it, I can't blame God for making it hot.

Originally posted by templar knight
Not sure I agree that religion was law. Before religion, we had morals and as Plato argued morals were law because we as humans are pack animals and need to get along with each other, especially in cities - hence the morals.

Interesting title "When did deep thinkers become crazy people?", I would argue perversely that being shallow is massively underrated! I look at young children who have a very simple outlook on Life and get lots of pleasure from Life, some of which we lose as we dig deeper.

What's behind the pleasure of climbing a tree? I don't know but I don't need to know to get the simple pleasure.

I have to admit, that I kind of equate the jist of this thread with somebody saying, "Hey. I'm really, really smart. Why aren't I getting the respect I am owed?!".

reply to post by CHA0S


To OP (CHA0S):

BRAVO TO YOU!!!!! Thank you for expressing all the thoughts I never get the chance to express.

The ones considered "crazy" are usually the ones who are far more evolved and I think we came to this stupid planet in the hopes of bringing some light to it. But this planet is populated by so many DUMMIES or simply smart people who are CLOSED-MINDED that it makes life barely tolerable for you and me.

I know there's better places in the universe than here, because honestly, the level of stupidity, ignorance and limitation here on Earth cannot be where it all ends!

reply to post by templar knight


there never was a documented "BEFORE RELIGION" time because religion and law were the same thing for a very long time. the social fabric of society was composed of a series of laws, all based on religious mores. today we separate them and try to pretend they were never the same thing

reply to post by ThePublicSpirit


Are you implying that religion is a necessity for to have a moral compass?

i guess the issue is related to positive life wills and deep thinking or realities truth make conscious admit that existance is justified through powers wills and not objectively, and this sound crazy for others because they need to believe that their lives buildings are real on solid existing ground, so for them it is crazy i guess to consider realities not existing right

reply to post by SpectreDC


that also suggests you can be moral without law. if there's no law to tell you what's moral, will you consciously make moral choices across the board? how will you know what's moral? logic dictates some states of reality, left to its own devices, will always choose what's most beneficial for itself and no one else. i think this is called the natural man, and suggests the natural man doesn't understand why there might be several reasons to choose beyond personal interest. it separates us from the animal who almost exclusively chooses self interest.

[edit on 23-1-2010 by undo]

considering people as animals is the issue much more than animals beings themselves, unfortunately living through existance powers are the ways of the most intelligent conscious freedom

Certain circumstances can be understood not only on a purely spiritual level, but even in a logical fashion.

Let us return when Man were hunter-gathers. Besides spiritual reasons, which is not the same as religious because religious symbolism, ritual and dogma IS created by man, things such as murder and theft can be seen as immoral, or bad, or evil, because they harm to community. Especially in states where man did not have such dominance, the lost of a good hunter, or the theft of public food, hurts the community.

I believe we all come from the same thing. You can call it God (whether or not the God your worship is actually the end all be all of reality), you can call it Brahman, I'll call it The Source. Quantum Physics has even identified it in our physical reality, the latent energy field that exists everywhere. This is, in essence, the only traces of The Source in our reality. As we're all connected as we come from the same source, one can find morality to live by solely from within. And any truthful experience with proper understanding shows a Positive and a Negative, and that the Positive is needed to propel ourselves out of this trap we call physical reality and reincarnation, and that the negative only keeps us trapped here.

I do not know what to make of the Christian god, and in fact all beings that seem to demand worship. They do exist, in a sense, but they aren't fully what they say we are. And some are positive, some negative. But even the positive ones try to bring us and teach us, at least most do not, but rather they try to bring us from one state of being that just happens to be fought over and acts as a prison, to a state of being that is completely under their creation. Perhaps it acts as a state to continue to develop spiritually, but in the end it is not a necessity but rather just a helping hand. One you don't need, and shouldn't be afraid to turn down because if they are TRULY benevolent, loving beings, they wouldn't mind.

The point is, spiritual introspection can create ones law, a religions law is not needed and often just like our law has been manipulated over time. With one using their own will to develop spiritually and to discover the true nature of reality, you are not in risk of being manipulated by those that can manipulate religious law, whether it be beings we believe to be benevolent but may not be, or man himself.

We are all God, we are all Fragments, we are all the Creator; you just need to look inside yourself to find your way back. And I believe that this is, factually, what Jesus taught, what Buddha taught, what a variety of human beings who were no different then you or I, but practiced esoteric practices. Look at Greek philosophers, many of them denied the current beliefs but rather found belief from within. They observed the world, and questioned the ways were, and looked inside for answers and found them. Many were good, peaceful men that were all benevolent in their own right, and discovered this true.

Native Americans mostly didn't worship anything either but rather respected it, though their way of respect was very akin to worship. But they too believed in esoteric ways and wisdom, they just lived with harmony and in respect to the beings we shared reality with. They spoke caution of those that were negative and embraced the positive but only sought guidance from themselves.

Morality does not require religion. It does not require the law of any other being. It requires our own hard work in looking inward and finding the answer yourself.

what could be positive does not erase what is negative, and what is negative existance has no relation at all with what is right

the issue is the lackness of objective fact reference being existing, the neutral zero assertion of existance concept being real, surely from where all minds rely on opposites beliefs being the base of all reality ground assertion fact

opposites maybe mean zero source but then that zero is never while it is the source of any life expressions and even existance ones true interactions absolutely

reply to post by imans


1. Not according to most spiritual beliefs, specifically karma which is what I was talking about. It's essentially the same as karma at least.

2. I never said you had to be one or the other, but rather polarities create the basis of most phenomenon that WE view, and exists more like a spectrum for someone.

3. Negative energy is essentially "evil". It is spawned from acts we would consider evil. Intent is usually important in discerning this also. It's the basis of reality because it determines ones placement in reality. Negative energy brings you further from the source. Positive energy brings you closer.

Negative beings exist as that is their purpose. They choose to stay there and they prey on the ignorance of those trapped here in this physical reality to generate negative energy for them to feed on.

Originally posted by SpectreDC
reply to post by ThePublicSpirit

 

Are you implying that religion is a necessity for to have a moral compass?

I'm saying that there have been times when, yes, Religion was needed for just that reason.

To really get into this properly, it would take it's own thread.

Here is a good example. It involves the 10 Commandments. And, it does not matter whether you believe in God or not:
It has been theorized that the 10 Commandments, (whether Holy or man-made), were presented to the Jews after being freed from Egypt, for some very sound, logical reasons.

When the Jews found themselves free, except for a very small minority, they were without laws, education, boundaries, etc. Of course, there were some inklings of these signs of "civilization", but, for the most part, as with any slave-race, the Jews had been kept in the dark as much as possible.
So, here is this enormous mass of people, set loose in the middle of nowhere.

The only way they were going to survive, was to basically have the application of a structured society literally and instantaneous shocked into them. This included everything from respect for a man and woman marrying, to hygiene, to the need for abstinence while disease was rampant.
And, of course this is just the tip of the iceberg. But, I am hoping you can see the reasons for strict laws, and horrific punishment. At that time, there was no other way to pull it all together.
And, also, the instances I listed above were just the smallest fraction of a the larger picture that involved everything from morals, to hygiene to law, property ownership, and of course, how their God was to be worshiped, etc, etc.
From a religious perspective, the 10 Commandments were "divine law, given from God", but even non-Christian Scholars saw the use of the 10 Commandments as "Instant Civilization Shock Therapy".
Now, here is where the Christians will get mad.
As a non-Christian explanation-
Due to the situation they were in, and how far the people had been broken down, it was only through the hope and fear that walks hand in hand with religion, that the instantaneous changes and education were achieved.
Non-Christians would agree that if it meant the survival of 10's of thousands of people in a hostile environment, the use of "Religion" was justified.

And, of course, this is just one example of how Religion was needed, and in this case, it was to be the beginning of a "Moral Compass".

Without acknowledging the existence of God, Non-Christian Scholars said, "Hey! Pretty crafty use of religion as a tool."

Christians and Jews say, "It was sure a good thing that God came down and gave Moses the 10 Commandments".

Once a person does the leg-work, and seriously researches these issues through reputable sources, a new picture begins to form.

There were valid, realistic reasons for many Biblical details that anti-Christians toss around.

Some of the laws, rules, statements and circumstances that seem ludicrous when we read them now, may have had a logical origin, and addressed matters that a lot of people today, are just not familiar with.

But, if you buy a book titled "How the Bible is BS", you obviously aren't going to be reading about anything I am pointing out.

As a matter of fact, a lot of the information I got did not come from any Religious source either. It took a study of History, Culture, Social Studies and Anthropology, to name a few subjects.

And, knowing some very smart, educated professionals didn't hurt either.

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by templar knight

 

there never was a documented "BEFORE RELIGION" time because religion and law were the same thing for a very long time. the social fabric of society was composed of a series of laws, all based on religious mores. today we separate them and try to pretend they were never the same thing

True.
And, yes, Religion has been a pivotal aspect of a society's ability to build a Moral Foundation.

Again, whether a person adheres to a beleif in God, or not, there is no denying that religions have been popping up anywhere that man has chosen to beild a civilization.

A person can decide whether this has been a result of:

Divine Intervention
or
A Toll of Man

Either way, it is obviously an important component of our social structure, and not just random and unnecessary.

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by SpectreDC

 

that also suggests you can be moral without law. if there's no law to tell you what's moral, will you consciously make moral choices across the board? how will you know what's moral? logic dictates some states of reality, left to its own devices, will always choose what's most beneficial for itself and no one else. i think this is called the natural man, and suggests the natural man doesn't understand why there might be several reasons to choose beyond personal interest. it separates us from the animal who almost exclusively chooses self interest.

[edit on 23-1-2010 by undo]

An interesting observation is that today, more than ever before in Human History, people are questioning, and giving up their belief in God.

We have new Gods. We have ourselves, technology, wealth, and fear, for instance.

Does it really look like humanity is still even concerned with moral action?
It looks to me like we are in trouble, and we are lost.
Each new generation grows up in a more advanced stage of human despair, not even aware that just a few generations ago, things were somewhat better.

reply to post by ThePublicSpirit


That is nice. This doesn't change or even respond to anything I said though. Very VERY few people progress spiritually. With religion, or without religion.

I said morality doesn't NEED religious guidance. It isn't a necessity. And there are examples throughout history where religious guidance is clearly ignored in these societies.

In the end, whether they don't have any spiritual beliefs, whether they have religious beliefs, or if they are esoteric, it is all up to the individual. This is a fact. You can observe this throughout societies and individuals in history. You can continue to perpetuate this nonsense that it is a necessity, which whether or not you haven't claimed out right is what you are heavily implying, but you're ignoring instances where religious guidance does not bring about a positive morality in people, where you have individuals you completely ignore spirituality all together and still are positively moral, and for the most part, a vast number of individuals who rely on esoteric guidance in history that have been the very pinnacle of positive morality on Earth.

And how can you honestly say that the past was totally better then it was now? You had wide instances of racial dominance, gender dominance, and religious dominance, being preached by various religious teachers and spreaders of all creeds. Some weren't, but a majority did and the societies they were structured around were thus personifying a lot of what was preached. You can go back 50 years, 100 years, 500 years, or 1000 years. This stays the same. You can go as far back as the fall of Rome, you can possibly even venture into the ancient eras in some places and still morality of what is shown by a society does not mirror what the society preaches.


What I'm trying to illustrate here is that in the end, these widespread dogma's clearly don't hold a solid moral compass over people and that it is all determined by the specific individual. Which is why it is utterly ludicrous to hold the belief that morality requires religious guidance.

[edit on 24-1-2010 by SpectreDC]