Since when did deep thinkers become the crazy people?

reply to post by undo


Seeing as I'm a spiritual atheist, I don't believe there's anything non-spiritual about the physical. I don't see a distinction, either. In my view, the spiritual is just the instinctual desire to be at one with your self and your surroundings. I can see we're not going to see eye to eye, and that's okay.

reply to post by CHA0S


oddly enough, that is paraphrased scripture. observe:

"for now we see through a glass darkly..."

these are subjects discussed by paul in his new testament epistles, which to me suggest that alternate reality has been deliberately darkened or veiled over by the physical body and to see beyond that veil is revealing. it also suggests that such revelation is outside the physical status quo and can be destructive if artificially induced or achieved without full knowledge of what is truly beyond that veil.

reply to post by CHA0S


You obviously abused them as well! You're the guy who thinks that you can gain awareness through having your neural networks sliced into little bits and pieces!



Please don't try and tell me because you only do them X amount per X time that you don't abuse them. I know better than that. You use them to escape reality. That's the truth you've yet to accept. Every drug user abuses.

reply to post by unityemissions


You know...I'd agree with you there...everything in this universe is essentially the same thing when it comes down to it...energy...but I believe, the term spiritual still has meaning...and you probably explained it best in saying spiritually is the ability to be at one with your self and your surroundings...and understand these things...which is being one with them...

You obviously abused them as well! You're the guy who thinks that you can gain awareness through having your neural networks sliced into little bits and pieces!

I haven't abused drugs at all...if taking them in anyway what so ever is abuse, then you're abusing drugs right now because your brain is producing chronic psychedelics as we speak...and not all drugs start slicing your neural network into bits and pieces...the chemical processes involved are extremely complex, and can potentially result in better cognitive function.

Please don't try and tell me because you only do them X amount per X time that you don't abuse them. I know better than that. You use them to escape reality.

I don't in fact use them to escape reality my friend...I've used them a few times to explore alternate states of reality, and I'm done...I don't take any forms of drugs anymore, so I'm obviously not doing it to escape reality. I have never abused drugs, and never will...by abuse, I mean frequent use, taking to much, and even addiction to said drugs...

As I edited into my post on the other page, which you may have missed:

As a psychonaut I can truly understand the importance of keeping the mind healthy and exercised...and abuse of drugs is one of the worste things you could ever possibly do...as I've been saying, a mature approach, moderation, and proper intentions is the key to unlocking the benefits of alternate states of consciousness, whilst not harming your mind.


EDIT: I find it funny how this turned into a debate about drugs..anyhow...I'm just waiting for a mod to come in and tell us to stop...so I just want to say...I'm not promoting drugs here...as I know that any drug, taken in any amount, can POSSIBLY cause harm to a person, as undo stated, we aren't hardwired to run perfectly on drugs, without risking something going wrong...I'm just stating, that not all drugs HAVE to be a bad thing, IF used properly, and they can POTENTIALLY have positive effects on the mind...

[edit on 23/1/10 by CHA0S]

[edit on 23/1/10 by CHA0S]

reply to post by CHA0S


Okay, I admit presuming and using absolutes and being in the wrong. Cool? It's rare that someone has such self-control and truly wants nothing more out of drugs than to experience their selves.

I'd like to say that out of all the experiences I had through the many psychedelic substances I took, nothing came close to the deep meditative sessions I had as a child. You really don't need any of these substances to experience ecstasy, nirvana, or enlightenment. It comes naturally when you're ready.

If you want to explore yourself entirely, I suggest using sensory deprivation techniques. When I was young, I would get into a closet, close the door, and "meditate". This before I knew what the term meant..Sit entirely still, make sure there's no sounds (earplugs if you must) , and go deep within. If you do this long enough, you'll create dmt and go for the trip of your life I was born a psychonaut.

reply to post by unityemissions

Okay, I admit presuming and using absolutes and being in the wrong. Cool?

Cool. It's good to know you understand what I'm trying to say.

It's rare that someone has such self-control and truly wants nothing more out of drugs than to experience their selves.

Yep...definitely a very rare thing...

I'd like to say that out of all the experiences I had through the many psychedelic substances I took, nothing came close to the deep meditative sessions I had as a child. You really don't need any of these substances to experience ecstasy, nirvana, or enlightenment. It comes naturally when you're ready.

Of course you don't need man-made drugs...the brain is the real drug supplier...and you can induce "natural" highs and moments of ecstasy without man-made drugs...and it doesn't even have to involve drugs of any sort, whether man-made or produced by the brain...but drugs are usually involved in such moments of enlightenment and alternate states of consciousness...

[edit on 23/1/10 by CHA0S]

reply to post by watchtheashes

It's fascinating that man won't take the free gift of eternal life.

Let me un-fascinate you. The reason why some refuse (or in my case, finally rejected) the 'free gift of eternal life' is because of religious nuts, people who have minds so narrow, it's amazing air can squeeze thru, much less a thought, and what you called the 'salesmen'. I cant even count how many times I have been called everything from an ignorant fool to even evil, just because I had a differing view, or in more than one case- my definition of a word was 'evil'. In one example, I am talking about the word 'evolved'! I used it in a sentence thus: 'My prayer time with God evolved'- and I was told flat out: 'There's no such thing as evolution! It's an evil word!' Allllrightty then.

When you get done with the general abuse, lies, thievery, pain, suffering, and not only lack of comfort, but people who are completely ignorant of your situation tell you 'it's your own fault, and your own choices' when said 'choices' made no difference- And then out of that same mouth comes 'Praise Jesus!', you stop and wonder mightily. When these people, who know the bible backwards and forwards (or so they say), are presented with something even slightly out of their 'realm'- it just simply doesn't exist, because it's not in the Bible. been there, done that- had to work thru something so frightening and upsetting, it's amazing I didn't end up going literally insane. AND I HAD TO DEAL WITH IT MYSELF. Because the 'believers' didn't even bother to think about the possibilities I was actually experiencing. When you get done with that- what WOULD want to you stay in the faith?

Is this ALL Christians? No... but it is a massive majority. I actually have met a few real people who really believe and try to live a correct life. and by 'few', I mean FEW. Very, Very few. Which to me says more that a true christian is a rarity, and it's a fluke, rather than the norm.

Which is why, after 21 years of actually trying, I gave up and rejected the Bible, God, and Jesus, and haven't looked back. God wants me back in the religion, he knows where I live.

[edit on 23-1-2010 by wylekat]

[edit on 23-1-2010 by wylekat]

reply to post by TarzanBeta

But I am curious if you could share some of your scientific facts that he couldn't grasp. I would also like to know your definition of abuse.

The short form: One which always stuck in my mind- we were both in his truck, it had rained, and the sun was out, making the road a blinding mess.

HE could see a bug parked at a car lot. I, being a few feet over, and dealing with a curved windshield, the sun hitting the road, and just being generally blinded by the angle, couldnt see squat. I explained why- and I was belittled. It was simple laws of reflection/ refraction and location, location location. Which he refused to grasp.

The abuse: mostly his mouth and belittling my talents, or almost anything that came out of my mouth. It got to the point where I didn't say or do anything, but his opinions of me kept on, to the point it's taken over a year for me to 'detox' and get back into the things I can do and enjoy doing. This man actually got happy when something I tried for fell thru miserably (moving and job wise), and was relentless when someone I really loved dumped me but hard.

There's more- but I think that'll suffice.

It's fascinating that man won't take the free gift of eternal life

I'll give my response to that...and that is: I already believe my soul is eternal and there is no such place as Heaven or Hell because I highly doubt the creator would send his creations to eternal torment...so...the question is...what makes your belief more correct then mine...your book of words? I don't think so...therefore, I don't need to accept the gift of eternal life...because I already have it...and for the Atheists (I'm agnostic)...they just probably don't even believe in eternal life, so therefore, there is nothing to take...they can't take something they don't even know is really there...I guess your question will now be..."Well, why not just try...you've got nothing to lose, and only eternal life to gain"...well, I'd answer, firstly, that wouldn't be a true Christian...they're only doing it for eternal life...secondly, to an Atheist, that'd be like saying "Why don't you try sitting there looking at the cup of water until you can move it with your mind, you've got nothing to lose, and only telekinetic powers to gain"...they wouldn't see the point, and would only see it as a waste of time where they accomplish nothing in the end, and instead could be doing more productive things...

[edit on 23/1/10 by CHA0S]

reply to post by CHA0S


Since the dawn of history, were people who rebuked the status quo system of belief, proven at the time,by only the word of the church thrown into the bunch of proverbial losers called crazy or devil worshipers and in the past were burned at the stake and thereby silenced.

Out of sight, out of mind.

This fundamental belief still holds true today. At least the labeling aspect as one as being crazy, and fortunately not the burning at the stake.



I look at these wealthy TV evangelists, with their huge mansions, private airports and jet aircraft.

Is it really all about God and the Word of God ? Or all about the people sending them their money, the 501c tax exempt status and the tax free money ?


A case in point:
The historical fact in which I often refer to is that at one time, we were told that the world was flat. Not only was the world flat, but if you ventured too far , you would simply perish by falling off the edge.

We know today that due to scientific proof, that this is ludicrous.

But at the time, when people had no information to the contrary, our belief system, which was solely based upon the word of the church, told of that the world was indeed flat.

And out of fear we dared not challenge this belief!

Nicolaus Copernicus for fear of being burned at the stake as a witch kept his scientific findings of the sun being the center of our planetary system a secret.

Even today, look at the association of "craze" with conspiracy theorists.

Look at the entire UFO "craze", or the 9/11 Truth movement "craze".

Its always been used by the system of control to simply discredit those who challenged their system.

Another example of this is how those former IRS agents, Joe Bannister and Sherry Jackson, who challenged the law requiring us to pay Federal income taxes are treated as being crazy and then as criminals.

First of course they are deemed crazy for even asking the question and then if they reveal too much truth , they too are silenced.

They're silenced because those in control do not want to lose the inherent money stream called tax revenue.
And that is why.

So once again, there is nothing new under the sun as far as people questioning the status quo being called crazy are concerned.

Its simply an inherent part, or the glue so to speak , of the system of control.

reply to post by CHA0S


that's a pretty good comparison. afterall, jesus was said to manipulate physical material reality, such as walking on water, walking through walls (without doors), controlling the weather and other aspects of the environment, levitating, healing the sick without medicine, creating duplicate copies of food / drink without a food replicator and so on. so yeah, moving that cup of water with the mind, kinda got the same feel to it if'n ya ask me.

i had discussion on this very topic with a Buddhist/Rosicrucian. we came to a similar conclusion: reality is a series of negative and positive forces that inevitably sides to the positive, and as such, positive will ultimately end up controlling the negative. i think this may be an example of how things work in general, not just religion specific but universally

[edit on 23-1-2010 by undo]

reply to post by CHA0S


I agree with you completely. Christianity or religions are the first to judge & cast the first stone. In history, religion has done nothing, but stop the growth of humanity. If a person was to think differently than the church, they were excommunicated or exterminated. Because the knowledge threatened their power. Every religions teachers even taught this. And look what happened to them they got exterminated.
Galileo discovered we revolve around the sun and not the earth the Catholic church [the power at the time] put him on full house arrest. what a way to treat someone so bright. Religion to me has done nothing but destroy our building of knowledge. It is the only way it can remain having control of the people. People truly love being enslaved by a system. The slave never realizes it is a slave.
Could you imagine how beautiful this living experience could be if people just used there minds. They did not fear what they think or the judgment of others. They could look at that rambling bum on the street & say "WOW he may have a point." If they looked at everything as equal. Everything. When people stop putting others or objects above themselves and start living for themselves and treating everything [not just people] like they want to be treated.
People if you have intelligence to read, PLEASE WAKE UP FRIEND do not be confined by religion. When you look outside the box it is so freeing. Religion loses its power over you then. Then you are taken full self ownership.

reply to post by undo

reality is a series of negative and positive forces that inevitably sides to the positive, and as such, positive will ultimately end up controlling the negative. i think this may be an example of how things work in general, not just religion specific but universally

You know...the probably one of the biggest philosophical problems I try to deal with...what is a positive force...and what is a negative force...is there a difference between them? Is it all just perspective and point of view...how do u truly define negative/bad and positive/good forces?

reply to post by yesIAM


originally, religion was not called religion, it was called the law. it was the same thing as the court system we have today, with the exception of citing an otherworldly authority as the basis for its construction. now we pretend our codified laws did not originally stem from the belief of an ultimate moral authority or authorities, outside humankind, and pretend the whole thing was our idea and has descended without flaw, from man's own inborn moral compass! ah how soon we forget our own history.

Why do people always have to believe there needs to be more positive. If you look at the universe as a whole. We must have a balance. Negative/Positive Lets take a straight line. In order for that line to be straight, it must not bend on either side otherwise it is not straight. Equal parts would make it straight.

There must be equals parts of both. If we have to much of positive without negative. The Program, The System,The Universe just would not grow.

reply to post by CHA0S


well being a christian, i tend to use jesus (i prefer to call him yeshua but some people don't recognize that name) as an example. he said that ultimately what matters is love (not sex in this sense but just love, generally speaking). he gave examples by showing that the law failed where it was less than loving. so i see that as the ultimate positive. most people do, if you think about it.

reply to post by yesIAM

People if you have intelligence to read, PLEASE WAKE UP FRIEND do not be confined by religion. When you look outside the box it is so freeing.

Yes, it extremely freeing and fulfilling when you come to this realization, that religion is nothing but a system to keep people enslaved...sure, it may have some truth right at its center...but as I said before...the entire truth exists deep within us all...and we don't need religion to find it, in fact, religion will most likely stop you from finding it, and I'd even go so far as to say, it's move you further from the creator, not closer, if there is a creator.

On another thread of mind...someone was smug enough to state:

You will remain obsessed and tormented by not knowing Christ the rest of your life.

I replied:

I'm not obsessed and tormented by such a thing...in fact, I'm quite content with how I live my life, and my view on religion. There is no empty hole within my soul, something needing fulfillment through the Lord, I'm a spiritually fulfilled person in every way.

And what I say is very true...most religions do nothing for me...and in fact opens a hole inside of me that needs filling...that hole is where the truth should go...because most religions only work to make me feel like I'm missing something...and are only leading me into ignorance...I have never felt so fulfilled, as I did when I decided I'd be agnostic and look for the truth with an open mind, and do it by myself, and think independently...without everyone trying to tell me what's what when they have no freakin idea...

[edit on 23/1/10 by CHA0S]

reply to post by yesIAM


but it sides to the positive, inevitably. it's ever so slightly, more positive than negative.

reply to post by undo

what matters is love
----
so i see that as the ultimate positive. most people do, if you think about it.

I guess you're right...so hate is the negative force of this universe? But then comes a question...if you kill a person because you lust for the taste of blood..not because you actually hate them...would that be a bad/negative thing?

[edit on 23/1/10 by CHA0S]

reply to post by CHA0S


Its a true pleasure to read your posts. I as well, feel ever so close to the universe after I let go of believing in a controlled god or system. I have no bars around me anymore. I look at everything so much different now.