Since when did deep thinkers become the crazy people?

to answer the question of the topic....

it happened as soon as the masses stopped thinking for themselves and were from then on told what to think. lol

the nail that sticks out gets hammered....

even if you are one against many, the idiots could all be on the same side...

sometimes it takes a blind man to see the world for what it really is....


these types of saying are what keeps "US" deep thinkers alive within the crowd of ........zombies!



personally i am glad to see some are still putting their thinking caps on.
(i almost threw mine away after highschool)

Yea i hear this ... it feels like when you speak on things outside the box of our senses or everyday knowledge your quick to make someones comfort level dissapear.

after that ......... just watch out.......

Originally posted by SpectreDC
reply to post by ThePublicSpirit

 

That is nice. This doesn't change or even respond to anything I said though. Very VERY few people progress spiritually. With religion, or without religion.

But, even less without religion. I'm not sure how you are even able to argue that fact. To believe that zero path is better than no path is not a very good argument. Or, even worse, to end up on a misguided path to Spirituality, by following other misguided individuals.
Of which, I am seeing much evidence.

I said morality doesn't NEED religious guidance. It isn't a necessity. And there are examples throughout history where religious guidance is clearly ignored in these societies.

And I said that most of the time, it does. Then I gave an example. Then I went on to state that we have needed religion since man began building civilizations.
I even went on to explain how there may even be an aspect of this piece of human nature that is driven more by necessity, than by the divine.
You aren't really giving any examples of any moral societies without religion. And, the only societies that can officially be said to have no religion, have been some very dubious ones during the last century. And, even they had an underlying, hidden foundation of religion that the general populace drew strength from.
I would need an awful lot of room to list the civilizations that have religions, or had religions, that laid out the framework for moral behavior.
If you can't acknowledge such a self-evident fact, their really isn't any evidence that I am discussing this with an open-minded individual.
And, I'm not going to continue writing to myself.
I see people are bringing up philosophers such as Plato and Socrates, and offering quotes and statements about morals existing within every man, and there being no need for religion. But, do you honestly believe there was no religion or worship in Greece? Are you saying that?
Or that, even if a man refuses to acknowledge religion, that he still hasn't been exposed to it, and to some extent, shaped by it?
That's just not a logical conclusion.
And, please, don't call my opinion "nonsense", just because you don't understand it, or haven't had access to the same information I have had access to.

[edit on 24-1-2010 by SpectreDC] [/quot

What does "zero path is better than no path is not a very good argument." mean? Where have I illustrated or talked about zero path? How can you even talk about "zero path is better than no path"? What the hell is the difference from a "zero" path from "no" path? I've never promoted a "zero" path or a "no" path. I've promoted a path created from the self, observing the world and meditating. Astral Projection. Fasting. Promoting a positive experience.

Secondly, you yourself seem to be neglecting to recognize the atrocities a variety of religious states have committed. Look at the Vatican. Look at Israel. Look in the Old Testament and the systematic annihilation from the Israelite's. Look at the crusades. Look at the variety of the wars between Papal states. Look at the inquisition. Look at the genocide of various American natives from European conquest done in the name of God. Look at Tibet. Look in China and the variety of conflicts all sorts of religions have had in China. Look at Islamic conquests across a variety of regions. Are these enough examples, which should be more blindly apparent to someone who is clearly putting themselves as a superior over such historical events, than me purposely neglecting to talk about them to see if you were openly going to be blind and hypocritical, as you've routinely shown to be throughout this thread? If all religions are apparently so good and necessary, why then are their examples in all religions in societies built around them that go against their way? To neglect to even recognize such is pure bias.

Thirdly, I thank you for openly showing your utter ignorance of Greek Philosophers, legends and belief. Greece didn't have a strong religious organization but rather a looser collaboration of held together beliefs, legends, and ethics. There really wasn't a strong central voice of religious dogma, belief was rather open. Early on, the belief in the gods was considered fairly important, which is why Socrates was killed for being blasphemous, but as time went on, after Plato and Aristotle, their philosophical beliefs because more acknowledged than the religious belief. And more and more, new belief groups sprung up throughout Ancient Greeks. Hedonism, and a contrast, Cynicism, were very wide spread. Belief in the gods still existed, but these philosophies were more important. Their beliefs had very little to do with their morality, which was not even widely shared any where in Greece. For many people, they found morality from within. The Greeks for the most part were incredibly open minded, because they did not uphill to a specific religious dogma.

For societies that have no real form of religion but great morality, look at Native Americans. Yes, they had a spiritual belief, but I wouldn't call it a religion. Again, very esoteric beliefs. Very little dogma. Ancient Tibet, before the creation of Tibetan Buddhism, again, was the same. Basically any society of people, that DID have a spiritual system, but a system that lacked a strong dogma, fit the creed here. Ancient India is another example, as the dogma their wasn't very powerful either.

This is going to be one of my lasts posts to you, Public. You have shown countless times you have ignored points and some posts entirely of mine, what you comment on clearly shows you either didn't understand or didn't accept to choose to understand, and you generally show yourself to be incredibly narrow minded in acceptance of others view points, generally being disrespectful, and being holier-than-thou.

I would suggest going back to your scripture and your priest and asking for proper guidance in being more open minded, accepting of other ideas and understandings, as your belief typically associates with you, so that not only do you shed your ignorance, but you yourself exemplify this "proper moral compass requires religious belief and structure", because I believe part of being positively moral is being open minded. Good Luck!

I said morality doesn't NEED religious guidance. It isn't a necessity. And there are examples throughout history where religious guidance is clearly ignored in these societies.

And I said that most of the time, it does. Then I gave an example. Then I went on to state that we have needed religion since man began building civilizations.

Not one religious text contains the word of God. It is the word of MAN. Man wrote the bible, and their initial intentions probably didn't involve money or enslavement, they most likely just wanted to create some order, and give people some guidance....but it has slowly turned into a system which only causes more damage than it prevents, and only works to keep people ignorant of the truth and essentially holds our entire society in the dark ages. Like I said, the bible contains some truth and good life lessons, and can teach morality....but those moral guidelines were derived from man, because deep inside us all, is the ability to distinguish right from wrong...but the bible also contains a lot of lies, and can lead people in the wrong direction, like hating gay people, or think they are wrong in some way for loving another person of the same sex...it turns us against each other in so many ways...because man is also not perfect, and we may sometimes interpret what our inner moral compass is telling us, in the wrong way...

I see people are bringing up philosophers such as Plato and Socrates, and offering quotes and statements about morals existing within every man, and there being no need for religion. But, do you honestly believe there was no religion or worship in Greece? Are you saying that?

So just because there existed a religion in the area these people lived, meant they had to be religious? Are you saying that? I can agree with you that man was once in need of religion so that we could develop some civility and order...but we are past that point now...and as I said, religion isn't being used in a way which will have positive effects for society as a whole, and instead is doing the opposite...it divides and enslaves us, causing more damage than it prevents...we are past the point of needing religion, it has done what it needed to do, which was show people a better way of living, and all it does now is mentally enslave and mislead people for profit...and in turn stop us from making the progress we should be making...

[edit on 24/1/10 by CHA0S]

Originally posted by SpectreDC
reply to post by ThePublicSpirit

 

In the end, whether they don't have any spiritual beliefs, whether they have religious beliefs, or if they are esoteric, it is all up to the individual. This is a fact. You can observe this throughout societies and individuals in history.

But, they only have the freedom to make those decisions, because of the society they have sprung from. Which, are religion-based societies.
I am not even saying that I like it, or want it, etc.
I am just saying that it has been that way. That's all.
But, whatever decision an individual makes, it is all redundant. He has already been shaped by these forces.
Whether we like it or not, it's everywhere. It's all around. In the laws, in entertainment, food, sports, literature and even government.
The individual SWAM in religion, before deciding not to be religious.
It's just the way it is.

You can continue to perpetuate this nonsense that it is a necessity, which whether or not you haven't claimed out right is what you are heavily implying, but you're ignoring instances where religious guidance does not bring about a positive morality in people

I am not saying that it always works out positively. I have just been saying that it has always been there. And, it is better than the alternative.

, where you have individuals you completely ignore spirituality all together and still are positively moral, and for the most part, a vast number of individuals who rely on esoteric guidance in history that have been the very pinnacle of positive morality on Earth.

You would have to show an instance of a moral individual growing up and developing in an environment that is totally isolated from religious exposure. Which, I don't think you can do. Even lands that outlaw religion, still have strong religious undercurrents and factions.

And how can you honestly say that the past was totally better then it was now? You had wide instances of racial dominance, gender dominance, and religious dominance, being preached by various religious teachers and spreaders of all creeds. Some weren't, but a majority did and the societies they were structured around were thus personifying a lot of what was preached. You can go back 50 years, 100 years, 500 years, or 1000 years. This stays the same. You can go as far back as the fall of Rome, you can possibly even venture into the ancient eras in some places and still morality of what is shown by a society does not mirror what the society preaches.

I understand what you are saying. And, I never said that religion creates a lack of evil. I just said that it provides a framework for morality.
Throughout history, each new civilization slaps up a list of laws, then details how they must be followed because they are dictated to do so by this religious text, or that religious leader, or those Gods.
It IS the way it is.

What I'm trying to illustrate here is that in the end, these widespread dogma's clearly don't hold a solid moral compass over people and that it is all determined by the specific individual. Which is why it is utterly ludicrous to hold the belief that morality requires religious guidance.

It doesn't make things perfect. But, it is a tool that has ALWAYS been used.
Of course there were horrors in the past.
But, never before have so many people been so lost.
Nothing to believe in, has created hordes of empty, searching people that have nothing to hold onto.
Just a big empty whole. No Faith at all.
I know I can't convince you, so I will stop trying. But, I am an old man, and I have personally walked a lot of bumpy roads. And, I can tell you, not using that "God muscle" that everybody has inside. Not using it seems to do something negative to us. Which might be why scientists are even starting to come forth and hint at the fact that we are "Hardwired" to believe in "God". It may actually be tied into our survival mechanisms.


[edit on 24/1/10 by ThePublicSpirit]

reply to post by SpectreDC

I've promoted a path created from the self, observing the world and meditating.

Yes, precisely, that is the path we need to start following now...and free our selves from the prison which religion has turned its self into...then we shall surely progress as a society a lot faster, stop a lot of the hate and destruction going on in this world, and lower the amount of ignorance that seems to be very apparent in the world...

reply to post by ThePublicSpirit

And, I can tell you, not using that "God muscle" that everybody has inside. Not using it seems to do something negative to us. Which might be why scientists are even starting to come forth and hint at the fact that we are "Hardwired" to believe in "God". It may actually be tied into our survival mechanisms.

This is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard. I'll just quote what I said earlier which make very clear my feelings on this:

On another thread of mind...someone was smug enough to state:

You will remain obsessed and tormented by not knowing Christ the rest of your life.

I replied:

I'm not obsessed and tormented by such a thing...in fact, I'm quite content with how I live my life, and my view on religion. There is no empty hole within my soul, something needing fulfillment through the Lord, I'm a spiritually fulfilled person in every way.

And what I say is very true...most religions do nothing for me...and in fact opens a hole inside of me that needs filling...that hole is where the truth should go...because most religions only work to make me feel like I'm missing something...and are only leading me into ignorance...I have never felt so fulfilled, as I did when I decided I'd be agnostic and look for the truth with an open mind, and do it by myself, and think independently...without everyone trying to tell me what's what when they have no freakin idea...

There is no "God muscle" and not using doesn't do anything negative to me, in fact, it does the opposite...maybe some people just cant exist in this world without some sort of faith in a higher being which stands for all things rightious and good...and that's fine...but you don't need religion to believe in a God(s) and have faith in such a thing...and not all people are "hardwired" to believe in "God"...absolutely ludicrous...I do not rely on such a survival mechanism...but as I said, some people may...not ALL...

And how can you honestly say that the past was totally better then it was now? You had wide instances of racial dominance, gender dominance, and religious dominance, being preached by various religious teachers and spreaders of all creeds. Some weren't, but a majority did and the societies they were structured around were thus personifying a lot of what was preached.

Why do you think that is public? Why do you think we are slowly fading out this sort of ignorance? It's only due to one thing: Our ability to stop blindly acting upon and "personifying what is preached" because our own moral compass is telling us this is wrong to do...we are exerting independence and freeing ourselves slowly from the steel grip of religion, and thinking for ourselves...

reply to post by SpectreDC


Yeah, there was no need for the disrespect or insults you gave. But, this is all you seem to understand.
I am sorry if I did not show enough respect to whatever path you seem to have thrown together for yourself. I am sorry you did not grasp the points I was making.
I am sorry that you feel it is acceptable to call names, curse and throw insults.
I did none of those things to you.

The points you presented as fact, including a "Religion free" and "Deity free" Greece, using Native Americans as a Religion-free society, just go to show that you are willing to sculpt history and information into whatever form you wish it to take.

We call that "Lawyering".

I remained detached, and even presented theories and information from non-religious avenues.

Your nastiness and inability to have a simple exchange of information and ideas is pretty much commonplace for individuals that are insecure about something that is very important to them.

You are obviously very sensitive about whatever belief system you are trying to puzzle together and rationalize.

In the meantime, my advice to you, is to try opening an actual "text book", and lay off the "conspiracy books" for a while. You have some really big holes in your information. And, they aren't going to get filled unless you can get into a more neutral position, and be willing to check out some sources that aren't inline with your perspective.

You are just an angry, disrespectful kid.

Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by SpectreDC

 

I've promoted a path created from the self, observing the world and meditating.

Yes, precisely, that is the path we need to start following now...

The sincere already are. The rest-- the ignorant and deceived-- are being given one final opportunity. Soon enough who is who will be laid plain. The path is created from the true self, not the illusion and awaits all those willing to embark.



Talk all you want...

Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by ThePublicSpirit

 

And, I can tell you, not using that "God muscle" that everybody has inside. Not using it seems to do something negative to us. Which might be why scientists are even starting to come forth and hint at the fact that we are "Hardwired" to believe in "God". It may actually be tied into our survival mechanisms.

This is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard. I'll just quote what I said earlier which make very clear my feelings on this:

On another thread of mind...someone was smug enough to state:

You will remain obsessed and tormented by not knowing Christ the rest of your life.

I replied:

I'm not obsessed and tormented by such a thing...in fact, I'm quite content with how I live my life, and my view on religion. There is no empty hole within my soul, something needing fulfillment through the Lord, I'm a spiritually fulfilled person in every way.

And what I say is very true...most religions do nothing for me...and in fact opens a hole inside of me that needs filling...that hole is where the truth should go...because most religions only work to make me feel like I'm missing something...and are only leading me into ignorance...I have never felt so fulfilled, as I did when I decided I'd be agnostic and look for the truth with an open mind, and do it by myself, and think independently...without everyone trying to tell me what's what when they have no freakin idea...

There is no "God muscle" and not using doesn't do anything negative to me, in fact, it does the opposite...maybe some people just cant exist in this world without some sort of faith in a higher being which stands for all things rightious and good...and that's fine...but you don't need religion to believe in a God(s) and have faith in such a thing...and not all people are "hardwired" to believe in "God"...absolutely ludicrous...I do not rely on such a survival mechanism...but as I said, some people may...not ALL...

And how can you honestly say that the past was totally better then it was now? You had wide instances of racial dominance, gender dominance, and religious dominance, being preached by various religious teachers and spreaders of all creeds. Some weren't, but a majority did and the societies they were structured around were thus personifying a lot of what was preached.

Why do you think that is public? Why do you think we are slowly fading out this sort of ignorance? It's only due to one thing: Our ability to stop blindly acting upon and "personifying what is preached" because our own moral compass is telling us this is wrong to do...we are exerting independence and freeing ourselves slowly from the steel grip of religion, and thinking for ourselves...

Do you honestly not see how rude and close minded your posts are?
Just because you don't understand my point, or haven't read what I have read?

Instead, if there is something you don't believe, or need proof of, why not just ask?

Is this how you are promoting this new way? Is this your display of "Spirituality"?

You can't even have a discussion with somebody that is simply presenting their own view.

reply to post by ThePublicSpirit


I'll ask you one simple question; have do you practice meditation? If not, I think you'll find your "god muscle" is merely a much smaller portion of a larger muscle which does not require religious guidance once you have begun to flex and build this muscle. Just like how our physical body has an abundance of muscles that are rarely used or only partly used, this spiritual muscle is barely utilized and typically condemned in most mainstream religions; they just teach you to flex only a small portion of it.

Let me put it this way; I have been One with what you would likely identify as "God". I have experienced states of mind nearly absent of sense of self and have experienced being One with all. I've spoken to the dead, I've flown by heaven as I was astral projecting once (yes, heaven does exist, although this Oneness or phenomenon you would call God is not the Christian God). I've seen "demons" and other negative entities. Passively, every passing day, I can feel the deepest most covered up emotions people have inside of themselves. I'm almost always in a perpetually cheery state. I'm a pacifist, to the point where I avoid even killing insects for no reason and usually just move them out of my way.

I've experienced and done a lot in my still relatively short life. I used to be an Atheist, and in a sense of the word I still don't worship any personal god but rather believe in an entity or phenomenon that is essentially everything. Every entity, every bit of energy, every plant, rock, molecule, everything. And we are all part of this entity, we are in fact essentially this entity in fragmented form. I would be very weary of making hasty generalizations of what I do and experience, because it requires a first hand experience to even begin to rap your head around the CONCEPT of rapping your head around the experience. To fully understand what I am speaking would be for you to go to an Atheist and explain what it was like to having experienced your god, or having experienced Jesus Christ not just as a concept, but something much, much, MUCH, more.

Originally posted by ThePublicSpirit

Originally posted by CHA0S
reply to post by ThePublicSpirit

 

And, I can tell you, not using that "God muscle" that everybody has inside. Not using it seems to do something negative to us. Which might be why scientists are even starting to come forth and hint at the fact that we are "Hardwired" to believe in "God". It may actually be tied into our survival mechanisms.

This is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard. I'll just quote what I said earlier which make very clear my feelings on this:

On another thread of mind...someone was smug enough to state:

You will remain obsessed and tormented by not knowing Christ the rest of your life.

I replied:

I'm not obsessed and tormented by such a thing...in fact, I'm quite content with how I live my life, and my view on religion. There is no empty hole within my soul, something needing fulfillment through the Lord, I'm a spiritually fulfilled person in every way.

And what I say is very true...most religions do nothing for me...and in fact opens a hole inside of me that needs filling...that hole is where the truth should go...because most religions only work to make me feel like I'm missing something...and are only leading me into ignorance...I have never felt so fulfilled, as I did when I decided I'd be agnostic and look for the truth with an open mind, and do it by myself, and think independently...without everyone trying to tell me what's what when they have no freakin idea...

There is no "God muscle" and not using doesn't do anything negative to me, in fact, it does the opposite...maybe some people just cant exist in this world without some sort of faith in a higher being which stands for all things rightious and good...and that's fine...but you don't need religion to believe in a God(s) and have faith in such a thing...and not all people are "hardwired" to believe in "God"...absolutely ludicrous...I do not rely on such a survival mechanism...but as I said, some people may...not ALL...

And how can you honestly say that the past was totally better then it was now? You had wide instances of racial dominance, gender dominance, and religious dominance, being preached by various religious teachers and spreaders of all creeds. Some weren't, but a majority did and the societies they were structured around were thus personifying a lot of what was preached.

Why do you think that is public? Why do you think we are slowly fading out this sort of ignorance? It's only due to one thing: Our ability to stop blindly acting upon and "personifying what is preached" because our own moral compass is telling us this is wrong to do...we are exerting independence and freeing ourselves slowly from the steel grip of religion, and thinking for ourselves...

Do you honestly not see how rude and close minded your posts are?
Just because you don't understand my point, or haven't read what I have read?

Instead, if there is something you don't believe, or need proof of, why not just ask?

Is this how you are promoting this new way? Is this your display of "Spirituality"?

You can't even have a discussion with somebody that is simply presenting their own view.

I'm glad you think so. Now try to understand that for me, what I just displayed towards yourself has been in great part what you have been displaying towards many others in this thread.

reply to post by CHA0S


This is the result of a 10 second search I just did.
If you are really interested in the truth, you start doing some of your own research, before ridiculing other members.
Humans are hardwired to believe in God

reply to post by SpectreDC


Say what you will.
I didn't tell you to believe in anything.
I didn't even say there is a God.
I purposely stayed away from that area, and concentrated on Religion, Morals and Society.
Honestly, I don't care what you believe. I'm not THAT kind of Christian.
I was just having a conversation.
And, it is obvious that I may have had access to information that you haven't. And, I was sharing it.
This apparently bothered you a great deal.
So, no problem. I won't do it anymore.

Originally posted by ThePublicSpirit
reply to post by CHA0S

 

This is the result of a 10 second search I just did.
If you are really interested in the truth, you start doing some of your own research, before ridiculing other members.
Humans are hardwired to believe in God

Did you really just post a link to the dailymail and in passing reference called it research?

Really?

as i read the many different posts... i see alot of new ideas and lifestyles and....
frankly i'm ashamed for anyone would choose not to think for themselves.
we have gotten this far in progression and developement because of "crazy people" like EINSTEIN!!!(it could have been just the hair that made him crazy)

BUT....i also see that there are others trying to tell someone that the ideas they have are either wrong or stupid. why???

is it because we can't grip the concept ourselves or is it that we haven't been told to think that yet?

some believe there is a GOD and some DON"T. its ok to disagree, in fact, i agree to disagree!

P.s. anyone who has posted something...even the stupidest idea to you, may actually be something of intelligence, just not to you YET!!!

please be respectful of others so that they may exercise the same.

And one more:


TimesOnline:
We are born to believe in God


Now, if there are any other details that anybody would like me to elaborate on, or give sources for, all you have to do is ask.

It would be nice if you could do so without cursing, calling me ignorant, ridiculous, or any of the other wonderful things I have had thrown at me.

reply to post by ThePublicSpirit


See, you're holding a speculative belief in your mind that this is information I do not have, when anyone who has had even a minor experience in talking about religion has come upon the topic you have brought up, and none of this information is at all revolutionary or new to myself, or even particularly factual.

Do you not see the faulty reasoning of all this? I'm not "mad"; I typically try to mirror how others treat me albeit as kindly as I can, so when they are not happy with how I'm posting to them, I kindly point out that I was merely doing to them what they were doing to me, and that if you truly want me to respect your opinion you first admit your hypocrisy and sillyness, and move on respectfully. I do so as a means to weed out ignorance, stupidity, and trolls. Not that I'm saying you are any of them, on the contrary I believe you are not, I'm just trying to explain to you why I react the way to you I have in this thread, and the purpose behind the why.

Originally posted by thatJESTERjustin
P.s. anyone who has posted something...even the stupidest idea to you, may actually be something of intelligence, just not to you YET!!!

please be respectful of others so that they may exercise the same.

This thread had much potential. Instead is seems to have degraded into a talk about religion and drug use and was set along that path right from the original post.

Just what is deep thinking? I cannot say I even have a good grip on the meaning of that. Think it's obvious? Well, then.