Phoenix Police pepper spray children at the anti Arpaio protest .

My Big beefs with PHX in regards to Law enforcement...

1: MJ as a Felony while I am quite certain there is massive corruption in regards to the Blow and Meth Amphetamine trade from within the dept...

2: Among the harshest DUI laws in the Nation while public transit is unavailable after hrs... Given the size and land area of the city and the few numbers of dedicated spots, you need to be able to afford a 50.00 cab ride...or much higher to go out without risking being pulled into the system via dui...

I view this as financial intent... if you live anywhere other than down town Phx, Central Tempe or off the strip in Scottsdale you are forced to stay in unless your well off... that's 80% of the people (this leads to drug use and crime doesn't prevent it) given the Meth situation... it kills people

3: Curfew against Youth, arrest for being outside your house if your young after 10 at night

4: Lack of allowance of pedestrian Traffic outside of a few designated zones... You are not wanted on the street on foot at night, you will be harassed if you don't look like you have a few bucks... They also enforce street laws like J walking if your crossing the street...

5: Intolerance of bicycle riders under the influence, they give out dui's to people on Bikes which again is nuts if you can't catch public transpo...

Walking intoxicated is also a crime...



Like I said, it's great of your elderly or have money... or live right in a "zone" which I did...

You wouldn't ever want to be disenfranchised in anyway in that city...

From noise in your home, to walking somewhere to go out...if your poor Phx will screw you badly

"Come on Vacation leave on probation"

It's not the cities theme for no reason...

reply to post by mopusvindictus
Just going on record to say that I entirely agree with this post.

In a perfect world, if things worked as they "should" and not as the "do" this would be the case.

Realistically, this generally isn't the case (especially with highly tense protests)...

While I will never say that I support this as a status quo or say that as citizens we shouldn't continue to challenge this, I will firmly stand that children shouldn't be involved.

Simply because we know (we've been shown too many times before...) that it takes only one incident, one person to make a decision to act in a way that negatively effects the entire group.

Accepting police aggression (no) but anticipating it (yes) only makes sense. Especially, protests with large numbers of people. I'm not naive, I've seen it happen in my city, it's not pretty. Riot police and snipers on the roof tops. It can get ugly.

Why in the h*ll would someone put a child in the middle of that possibility? As an adult, stand up for what you believe is your right. I would argue however, that as you are doing so, bear in mind that one's first responsibility is to protect one's child. This before political dissent. All my opinion, of course.

I will say this in defense of Phx tho...

Hottest Women on the Planet I think...

But I always felt living there like they were cheese and I was the mouse... and getting back and forth at night entertained difficulties and risks and that the system was corrupt to get at the poor that way...

Parts of West Phx... and Mesa too... so Meth ridden that the crime rate is extremely high and I believe wholly, the transportation system and Police system are set up to Make Money that way at night for the city.

I don't believe so much of the city would be a ruination that way, if pedestrian traffic was allowed if kids could leave the house at night if noise ordinances in the home weren't so strict...

I think the setup is the cause of the rampant drug abuse...

and living there years...I knew one too many people who fell into Meth because they sat in the house particularly the further west and North you go if your not in Money, you have no options but to stay inside and one thing seems to lead to another

And this all began when Joe got into office... In College at ASU 20 years ago... I could have a party, i could ride my bike out at night a bit of MJ wasn't strictly enforced it was a liberal community...

Today tweakers and Blow are everywhere...

I blame the mans policies... of enforcing people into their homes at night and being overly strict on transportation down to a level of walking with a buzz on...

20 years ago before him, it was an Every mans society there, today it is largely a class society

Originally posted by mopusvindictus
My Big beefs with PHX in regards to Law enforcement...

1: MJ as a Felony while I am quite certain there is massive corruption in regards to the Blow and Meth Amphetamine trade from within the dept...

2: Among the harshest DUI laws in the Nation while public transit is unavailable after hrs... Given the size and land area of the city and the few numbers of dedicated spots, you need to be able to afford a 50.00 cab ride...or much higher to go out without risking being pulled into the system via dui...

I view this as financial intent... if you live anywhere other than down town Phx, Central Tempe or off the strip in Scottsdale you are forced to stay in unless your well off... that's 80% of the people (this leads to drug use and crime doesn't prevent it) given the Meth situation... it kills people

3: Curfew against Youth, arrest for being outside your house if your young after 10 at night

4: Lack of allowance of pedestrian Traffic outside of a few designated zones... You are not wanted on the street on foot at night, you will be harassed if you don't look like you have a few bucks... They also enforce street laws like J walking if your crossing the street...

5: Intolerance of bicycle riders under the influence, they give out dui's to people on Bikes which again is nuts if you can't catch public transpo...

Walking intoxicated is also a crime...



Like I said, it's great of your elderly or have money... or live right in a "zone" which I did...

You wouldn't ever want to be disenfranchised in anyway in that city...

From noise in your home, to walking somewhere to go out...if your poor Phx will screw you badly

"Come on Vacation leave on probation"

It's not the cities theme for no reason...

#2: So you think they should be more lenient on DUI's so that people feels less reason not to drive drunk and put others in danger? That makes no sense. You are more concerned with people being able to pay for a taxi than the lives driving drunk puts in danger. I for one, wish the rest of the country had the Phoenix DUI policies.

#3: We both know they don't just arrest youths for being outside. Come on man, be serious and intellectually honest. If any kids are out during curfew, the police tell them they have to get inside. If they can't the police call their parents and have them come get them. The only times arrests happen are if there are actual crimes beyond curfew going on.

#4: I still have no clue what you are talking about here. I have been all over that valley, and never see police harassing people for being outside. If there are groups walking through a neighborhood late at night, I see no problem with police asking what they are doing. I have never ever seen cops harassing anyone purely because they don't look like they have money. Never. ever.

#5: Same point, you care more about people's ability to pay for a cab than the danger these people put others in. You need to remember what the job of the police is. It is to protect the general public from danger and harm. DUI's whether in a car or on a bike endanger others, and it is the legal duty of police to protect the public from that

i know why police assault children. it makes them feel tough because they know theyd get their butt kicked without any backup.

Originally posted by mopusvindictus
2: Among the harshest DUI laws in the Nation ....... you need to be able to afford a 50.00 cab ride...or much higher to go out without risking being pulled into the system via dui...

Of course, the more sensible solution is not to drink and drive...

They also enforce street laws like J walking if your crossing the street...

Dont J wakj, you will have no problem...

Intolerance of bicycle riders under the influence, they give out dui's to people on Bikes

Simply dont drink and ride....

Walking intoxicated is also a crime...

Simply dont get drunk and walk...

So you think the public should have to put up with drunk drivers, who are far more likely to have a accident, drunk riders the same and being drunk in public....

It appears you have a major alcohol problem!

reply to post by mopusvindictus


Actually that other poster brought up a good point. You keep bringing up complaints about the police surround alcohol and drugs. I would guess that this is the main root of your complaint about them. Not to judge, but you seem more pissed off that the police harass you and/or your friends in the Phoenix area because of alcohol and drugs than anything else. Maybe the police knowledge of your group's alcohol and drug habits is why they gave you guys a hard time......

reply to post by LadySkadi


All we have is our opinions

I am very concerned that we are being conditioned to not protest anymore...

I don't believe this was a "highly volatile protest" there was no opposition from the public, no line to cross per say... I would agree if this was... an Abortion rally as example... where there would be a virulent side and argumentation going on...

But there wasn't...

I have no idea, what that cop needed to be doing IN the crowd...

Violence is a tricky word, not long ago if you didn't like a play, people threw tomatoes... (okay I wouldn't want a return to that lol) but plastic bottles to me... doesn't constitute a threat that requires escalation... it's more like aggressive Booing IMHO

And like i'm saying above...

Phx... particularly harsh city on the poor...

The worst in America IMHO

Right to work state... i.e. right to be fired without cause... little effective public aid... so how can the poor march without anyone to tend the children?

Sort of a Catch 22...

i'd like our youth to live in a world in which they understand they have the right to protest...

The crowd wasn't a danger to the child...

The police ended up being one tho...

Anytime you assemble a lot of people things can go wrong...

It is a risk, yes...

But you'd think... from that height and vantage point... if the officer wasn't in physical danger (which wasn't the case) you could see there was child present from that height...

Not sure exactly why... whomever threw the bottle wasn't specifically targeted either...

it reminds me of....

The habit of high speed car chases

I watched once on TV a chase in Cali, where a man had stolen an empty old mail truck... they pursued him through the streets and highway for 4 hrs, cost the State 12 Million dollars, someone died others were injured...

To reclaim a 12,000 vehicle that was insured...

Not long ago...we had common sense

We never USED to chase down a perp unless there was serious crime like Murder involved... because the pursuit wasn't worth the risks of the capture...

Likewise...

Was a plastic bottle worth spraying a crowd...maybe causing a riot...

no

Sometimes the Cure... is worse than the Disease is all i'm saying...

Angry crowd, throwing some bottles... not the end of the world, not a need to be THE MAN (or woman) in this case and get all raw about it...

Back in the day...I have often seen in situations like this in NY.... the simple common sense exercised to BACK OFF and let the hostility die rather than prove a point...

To me it's a 2 wrongs don't make a Right situation

Just my opinion too of course in all friendliness...

If I saw an angry crowd...protesting the Police of all things and they are mad at the police...

If I was Sergent... I'd tell them to back off 50 yards and let them have their day... not enter the crowd... it's pushing an angry person, it can't end well...

Originally posted by mopusvindictus
reply to post by LadySkadi

 

Phx... particularly harsh city on the poor...

The worst in America IMHO

Right to work state... i.e. right to be fired without cause... little effective public aid... so how can the poor march without anyone to tend the children?

Sort of a Catch 22...

i'd like our youth to live in a world in which they understand they have the right to protest...

The crowd wasn't a danger to the child...

The police ended up being one tho...

Anytime you assemble a lot of people things can go wrong...

It is a risk, yes...

But you'd think... from that height and vantage point... if the officer wasn't in physical danger (which wasn't the case) you could see there was child present from that height...

Not sure exactly why... whomever threw the bottle wasn't specifically targeted either...

it reminds me of....

The habit of high speed car chases

I watched once on TV a chase in Cali, where a man had stolen an empty old mail truck... they pursued him through the streets and highway for 4 hrs, cost the State 12 Million dollars, someone died others were injured...

To reclaim a 12,000 vehicle that was insured...

Not long ago...we had common sense

We never USED to chase down a perp unless there was serious crime like Murder involved... because the pursuit wasn't worth the risks of the capture...

Likewise...

Was a plastic bottle worth spraying a crowd...maybe causing a riot...

no

Sometimes the Cure... is worse than the Disease is all i'm saying...

Angry crowd, throwing some bottles... not the end of the world, not a need to be THE MAN (or woman) in this case and get all raw about it...

Back in the day...I have often seen in situations like this in NY.... the simple common sense exercised to BACK OFF and let the hostility die rather than prove a point...

You're an interesting person. You choose at all turns in this conversation to blame the police instead of the criminal. Someone steals a car and police actually chase them and someone gets hurt, you blame the police, not the criminal that wouldn't stop. You think the govt should provide daycare so people can go protest against it. Someone drives drunk and gets arrested and you blame the police for have strict enforcement of DUI's. Someone gets drunk and bikes drunk and you blame the cops. Someone is hammered in public, you blame the cops. LOL.

You talk about how there used to be common sense in society, but how about these notions:

1) being accountable for your own actions
2) not committing crimes

Follow those two things, and I am pretty sure the police with MAGICALLY stop 'picking on you'.

reply to post by johnny2127


No you misunderstand...

The policies lead to more harm than good... I can get away with whatever I want, it's not personal to me.

What is personal to me...

Is the social situation it has caused and no the people it has caused it to aren't "my friends" per say...

It's economic... when half the city is spending money to get high in the house that's terrible for everyone because the money goes to Mexican drug lords not American bar and Restaurant owners..

It's criminal in that people drinking or partying at home are much more likely to end up in a violent situation than out at a nice safe place...Domestic violence goes up, murder goes up...

It's a Health issue via disease and behavior...

Those things all can affect me...

Take a ride through The Square, drive through Sunny side... anywhere mostly along central... or west or south where... the city disallows any kind of social activity and the cost is to high to take that cab out...

These people have been intentionally disenfranchised in order to fund the system via arrest

Phx is not ALONE in that but it's one of the worst places we have like that...

People need to get out at night... we are social creatures...

When they can't they look for alternative methods and those are almost always negative...

You can see where I'm coming from... or simply be happy to ignore it because you can get yourself to Scottsdale or wherever you frequent at night.... I could likewise do the same...

But I still have to live around those people or at least drive past the slums we create once in awhile and I'd rather they just be allowed to live... because what happens to them can come back to haunt me via real crime...

I just don't like to see people end up in jail, loose their jobs end up worse off... for essentially trying to do what I with a higher income can get away with all the time...

reply to post by mopusvindictus


So, let me get this right still..... you still blame these policies for everything, although Phoenix has one of the lowest rates of repeat DUI offenders in the nation. And you blame more drug use on the police even though drug use is a personal choice, that no one makes for someone else. What don't you blame on the police?

Where does personal accountability come into the equation with you? Because apparently, even if the police aren't there, if someone drives drunk or does drugs or is poor, its the fault of the police and their policies.



[edit on 18-1-2010 by johnny2127]

Originally posted by greeneyedleo
reply to post by Matthew Dark

 

Sort of like people will only video certain things or edit video to show certain things. Slanted like that?

Id say many people, other than just cops, act unjustly too. But for some reason, people just dont want to believe that citizens actually do behave badly. Nope, its only cops who behave badly.

Oh well.

The police chose that line of work. They knew the risk going into the academy. They are supposed to be professionals the people are just the people. The police are trained to do better than they are nowdays.

I see people behaving badly all the time....they get themselves hurt doing it and I come help them....I dont judge them for there actions though because they are just everyday people. You dont take a big honking industrial size can of pepper spray and shoot the crowd with it because someone behind you is shoving a flag at you. Where is the empathy? What if that cop sprayed someone that would have a respiratory reaction and die from it?

The police have changed....they have talked themselves into believing they are in danger at all times and that we are the enemy that needs to be handled like you handle and enemy instead of a citizen.

No excuses....they signed up for it but cant seem to suck it up.

We have a saying in the fire service.

"If you cant stand the heat, then get back in your cop car."

reply to post by johnny2127


This was never the policy in the past...

There are ways to investigate crimes... eventually the guy is going to run ouit of gas...

I don't think the guy should get away with it if avoidable...

The price in life and finance just isn't at all worth the cost...

It's not siding with the criminal...

Not AT ALL

But if someone might die in pursuit of a worthless thing... PARTICULARLY MAYBE THE COP

Where is the worth? Sometimes it's Just a BETTER Police tactic... to let a perp run pout of steam rather than enrage the person and make it worse...

How does closing a highway costing Millions in lost labor on a commute alone justify the retrieval of a vehicle... if the guy isn't doing 110 already and you chase him and he does aren't you just making MORE of a situation?

If someone is...getting High...do you really need to break in with an armored vehicle to stop them? Through the wall?

If someone did something wrong...can't you just take your time and get them later rather than FORCE a stand off at gun point in a residential neighborhood?

I'm NOT on the side of the criminal in these instances...

I just don't think in a day of computers, facial recognition, helicopters and radios... You actually need to play Cowboy like that.

Get the photo... I D the sucker... and catch him you don't have to tear up the streets like wild maniacs to prove a point by force...

I mean for Christ sake...

A guy pulls off during a pull over...

You have his photo and license plate... your going to get him... it's inevitable...

If a life hasn't been take the cops shouldn't risk lives that's all.

In a world like Cali for example... where a 3rd strike for something moronic like petty theft can land you life in jail...or a drug offense... These policies make people desperate...

Thieves or drug users are not worse than someone who will do anything to avoid arrest for a vial of dope or...lol a slice of stolen Pizza...

It's just a matter of priorities...

I'd much prefer to see the Cops...doing what they Became cops to do...

First and fore most go after murders, rapists, child abusers, hard core criminals...

Rocketing down the street at 110 after a guy who is fleeing arrest for dope... just isn't my idea of what they should be doing...

PHX is the kidnapping capital of America... It's Murder rate rivals Detroit...

I just think the cops have better things to do there...

Right now there are truck loads of Meth passing through PHX... a drug that WILL KILL A LOT OF PEOPLE

Somehow I rather them just track that stuff down... than apply 6 dudes on horse back to make sure no one has fist fight after closing hr at the bar...

Call me crazy lol

But there are a lot of unsolved murders and kidnappings in Phx... somehow I think they have no real priorities...

The second video is quite clear, in fact some of the stills are remarkably clear, the spraying was a random act and the camera was right on shot, in fact in the line of fire. There is no physical interference at that side, Miss squirty is out of line and should be sacked, in common with the officer, (in a unrelated case) who tipped a disabled man out of his wheelchair onto the ground, just to see if he was disabled.

reply to post by johnny2127


Of course they have one of the lowest repeat dui's in the nation... They are Draconian...

But track what happens to those people as a result... they never drive again, never reenter the system very often, forever a drain on society when 99% of them never would have even caused an accident... No Car in Phx = no work...

where do you suppose they go from there?

Back into the system of course...

If they put the same effort into the Murders and kidnappings and Meth trade... as they do social policing and dui's and curfews

They'd save a lot more lives...

And dui's again...

If they actually gave a damn...why not run the buses and light rail on the weekend until 3-4? or 24 hrs like the major metropolitan area it is?

The only answer is Money and that's just corruption in my eyes...

Dui's net them a fortune in matching federal funds... they get like 100 bucks I think from the Feds every time they move a prisoner by bus lol...let alone incarcerate someone...

And catching drunks is easy...just hang out and wait for a car to go by...they KNOW you can't get home any other way...

Frankly I view it as entrapment the way it's set up.

Please don't get me wrong...

There is just huge manpower and resources used on people to prevent crimes that haven't actually happened yet....

You get drunk and kill someone ...your GUILTY of vehicular homicide... your done... same for dope, same for domestic violence if someone is seriously hurt and many other areas of the law...

And that's quite harsh enough... your life is over...

I just believe in innocent until Guilty

There are only so many REAL crimes in my book... a system wasting huge resources on catching people Before they actually do harm...it might save a few lives but it gives out Felonies to Millions of people who haven't actually done the deed yet... most drug users wont turn to a life of crime, most people coming home from the bar aren't going to have an accident...

I just think the effort should be spent on tracking down those that HAVE screwed up royally

Prevention by these measures Might lower this or that by x % (and it's not a huge %) but it also contributes to a massive economic drain... they must book 1000 duis for every accident prevented...

That's... by cost insanity... at maybe a cost per person of 5 G and loss of a job for someone who hasn't screwed up yet on an IF your taking Millions away from the private sector

Millions more then gets funneled into the pockets of dope dealers because these people now party at home... they murder a lot of people too those guys...

For those that don't... they have kids jobs... it just funnels people into the system... people that would have never been there

It costs more lives than dui's do...











[edit on 18-1-2010 by mopusvindictus]

reply to post by mopusvindictus


Buddy, I know many people in the Phoenix area that have gotten DUI's. They all have ended up in Tent City and then released. They all still have cars and their jobs, and they don't drive drunk anymore. And before you even start insinuating that they all must have money, I will stop you right there..... most don't make much money at all. So to say that the DUI stops end up ruining their lives is complete BS. Get 2-3 and yes they will take your license to drive away, as they should.

But then the other city I live in is Seattle, and I know many people up here that have had DUI's, get an attorney and get their charges reduced. Result, most still drive drunk. So let me ask, which city has the better DUI policy?

So if your argument is that the DUI policy works, and works so well that it should instituted as harshly in other areas, I agree. I will always err on the side of personal responsibility. Nearly all things in life are choices, and all these people knowingly choose to break the law. You aren't complaining that people break the law, but that police actually pursue and convict people for alcohol and drug related crimes. Talk about bizarro world



[edit on 18-1-2010 by johnny2127]

reply to post by johnny2127


I'm complaining that the law exists at all...

Funneling money at the Govt instead of remaining in the hands of people..

Dui is a Grey territory...

Yes there are people who will have accidents under the influence... people do get hurt...

But who is to say WHO the people who will cause that are unless they do?

I live in a society of prescription drugs... apparently 99% of people statistically are on something 10's of millions of Americans are driving right now... on head medications...

This says nothing of their ability to drive in the first place...

If you wanted to make a case against the elderly on impairment you easily could... why can they drive?

I could readily on a 5th of scotch drive circles around most 85 yr olds yet that's okay....

How about ht biggest ACCIDENT group?

18-25 yr olds...

Sheer recklessness... they pay a high insurance premium specifically for that reason...

should we not allow the old and young to drive since together they are worse than dui's?

I'm sorry...

It shouldn't be Law...

You haven't caused an accident until you've caused an accident...

I wasn't raised in a country where... What you MIGHT do was supposed to be cause for arrest. It just became that way over my lifetime.

And let me add simply to that....

We grew America to Super Power Status and were just fine before all these laws and wars against self, less poverty, less grief, less trouble for everyone...

it was more functional.... as we have waxed draconian America has declined...

it's not working...

reply to post by mopusvindictus


Well now the reason for your commentary is very apparent. You just made it clear completely. You are biased against police in general, and law in general. You would rather not police those most likely to end up hurting innocent people. If anything, a more reasonable opinion would be to ask for the elderly to take yearly driving exams, or to delay the driving age until later. But instead, you want the police to stop policing drunk drivers and druggies all together. You should go talk to the support groups whose family and friends were killed by drunk drivers and see if you still have the same opinion. If I were to guess, I would say you yourself have DUI's and instead of being accountable for your mistakes, chose to blame someone else. But I have to hand it to you, most people wouldn't have the balls to actually admit that they think drunk driving shouldn't be illegal. Kudos to you and your drunk balls.