Phoenix Police pepper spray children at the anti Arpaio protest .

double-post. sorry.

[edit on 18-1-2010 by marsvolta]

Originally posted by johnny2127

So let me get this straight; what you are saying is that the police should not try to prevent a once peaceful protest from spiraling further out of control, because kids are there and may get mace in their eyes? Really? Thats your logic? You don't carry it the one extra step? Here is one extra step: if they didn't do anything and it got more out of control the kids could have been hurt badly or killed. Then if that happened, someone like you would post a link saying that police stood by and let kids get hurt or killed during a demonstration, and did nothing. With people like you, police cannot win. It is that attitude and those blinders that immediately clouds your judgment and perception of statements and events.

why kids only? how about people over the age of 21? they feel pain too. and who was out to hurt kids besides cops who actually DID IT? with people like you we get fukcs in uniform who think they are above the law and invincible and act accordingly because these badge-wearing thugs know they will be backed 100% by people like you no matter what.

[edit on 18-1-2010 by marsvolta]

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by Matthew Dark

 

Trust you on this one? WHY THE HELL SHOULD I TRUST YOU!

You shouldn't, read the links I posted. They're filled with facts. Educate yourself.

There must have been something.

Yes, a fairly large gathering of people protesting an openly corrupt sheriff who has a habit of terrorizing civilians.

I am getting so sick and tired of people spreading their emotions like it is fact.

Isn't that exactly what you're doing right there? Seems a bit hypocritical.

Their is a federal investigation, whoo hoo, good for the federales!

At least it's a start. If you're not in the area personally dealing with the situation, then why so hostile? Perhaps you should take some of that energy and focus it on proper spelling and grammar.

How about an investigation into why Federal laws are not enforced!

Yeah, okay, why don't you get right on that. You obviously seem to have all the answers.

Man, what propagandized drivel.

I'm fairly sure that I said that I'm not taking sides in this incident, no, in fact I'm absolutely positive I said that. If you rolled through here and wound up having to spend a week or two in 'tent city', you might begin to understand why the locals are so passionate about this subject.


[note: edited due to my lack of ability to use the 'quote' function properly...durr...]

[edit on 1/18/10 by Matthew Dark]

Originally posted by johnny2127


Here is how people like you think: he's corrupted the Justice System by actually enforcing the laws. How dare he!

Ah, so you profess to dictate to me how I think, eh? No, this isn't so much my opinion as it is documented. I personally have had no problems with cops or laws in Arizona, I'm what's referred to as a 'responsible citizen'. I am merely relating the emotions conveyed to me by my peers and reciting documented facts. It has nothing to do with if laws are enforced, it's how they're enforced.

The federal govt is investigating him for enforcing laws, and for not listening to them when they tell him not to enforce certain laws. He tells them, sorry but he doesn't take his orders from the federal govt.

Perhaps. Or, perhaps the federal government is investigating millions of dollars of public funds disappearing around the same time as whole chunks of land being bought up through channels that lead to the sheriff. Perhaps they're investigating people being mysteriously injured, some even winding up dead, during routine police questionings. Perhaps they're investigating how people in some of the local jails are under a COT and denied their medications. Perhaps they're investigating the tons and tons of meth that is produced right here, un-investigated and apparently unhampered, and shipped all over North America. Perhaps, and this may be a stretch, just perhaps the federal government would like to know why a major international human rights organization has taken a specific interest in the ways inmates are treated in these jails. I'm sure those are valid questions that the Justice Department would like to have answered.

Sorry, but he was elected as Sheriff and will be again. Why? Because he does exactly what you are complaining about...... enforcing laws. With the problems going on in Phoenix right now, I really doubt you want some touchy feely liberal police force down there. If anything you need more police, and more leeway to enforce laws.

I'm not complaining, I'm relating information. As stated earlier, I haven't had any issues personally with the local justice department, because there's nothing that I'm into that would warrant it. I didn't vote for the guy, and after talking to quite a few people, I can't really find anyone who has. Perhaps you can find some of them and relate their stories up here as I would be very interested in hearing about their motivations. I'm a firm believer in being tough on crime, but being tough on ordinary non-criminal citizens crosses the line and becomes tyranny. I suggest you read some of the aforementioned links. I'm not arguing with any of you, nor am I supporting the protesters bringing children to an anti-sheriff rally, but like I said, if you're not here and not seeing it for yourself, it's way easy to judge.

Originally posted by Lillydale
I live all the way in NY and people here worship Sheriff Joe. He gets these hour long specials on MSNBC to tout his perfect little world. I know people here that will defend that man to the death and really have no idea what he is all about. They think he is an example to be followed. Sheriff Joe has a LOOOOOOOOOOOONG reach with much media support. I know about as much about him as you posted and what is seen on tv and it is clear that he is painted in a light rather different than reality seems to be discovering. My condolences.

Yeah, I actually moved here from NY last year, and, even living in NY, I'd heard horror stories about how things were run here. Don't get me wrong, I still moved here (for school...NO...NOT ASU!), but yeah...there's more to the story than we're all getting.

reply to post by felonius


You bring up a lot of good points.
I am ardently against people coming over illegally and claiming that their 'rights' have been infringed upon.
And I am absolutely for being tough on those who don't come to the US through the proper channels.
If you come over illegally, and don't contribute in a positive way in our society, then yes, you have no legal recourse for persecution and it's your own damn fault anyways.
However, there is more going on than just that.

reply to post by johnny2127


Your completely putting words in my mouth for the sake of argument...

I am not biased against the Police in general, many of my friends in fact from growing up are cops these days and many of them agree with me that they would rather be spending time going after career criminals than after ordinary people.

This is more than once because i'm defending those who are disenfranchised by the system as it is... you have made wrong assumptions about me verging on accusation about my personal issues, practically accusing me of having been a jail bird lol and other things...

When the reality these statements your making are simply untrue nor have you managed to address a single one of my arguments...


There is a litmus test for what I am really talking about and it's called Northern Europe... where decriminalization of drugs, accessibility for everyone and other factors have eliminated all of these problems...

A system of punishment doesn't work it only makes maters work...

You even admit you Know many people with Dui's lol

But yet you wont even recognize that the system barely makes it possible to go out and enjoy life a bit in Phx...

So while you accuse me of things...I have never done or said...

It's your pals paying the price and paying the money...

On the simplest end... rather than simply dismiss me...

try explaining why crime is so low in parts of Europe that advocate the polices I'm talking about yet rampant here despite these measures...

Or address how you pay TAXES yet they won't provide public transportation at night but rather fund hundreds of cops instead on a money making scheme...which has arrested your friends...

You walk in acting like the Police system in Phx does not affect you...

Yet talk out the other side of your mouth a minute later... and claim you know all these people that have been arrested...

Last I checked...

I pay them to make life better for me...I assume you do the same...

Yet the refuse to so much as keep a bus running at night then set up check points and support them when people protest the system out here...

In the middle of a recession... how do you think the Thousands that cost all of those friends of yours has affected the economy?

How much less do they go out and stimulate the economy... was it just their problem or were people laid off from the service industry this year?

What's the effect of that?

When you watch a totally different set of Laws Work in Europe how can you justify the need for this?

Aside from labeling people as "scum bags" for walking down the street, catching a buzz or simply wishing for a way to get home?

Would it cost the city money or gain them money to allow the bars t stay open until 5:00 when the buses run again? Bars don't pay taxes?

The obviousness of the purely financial nature of the way Phx is run is extremely apparent and all you want to do is argue for the cops... many of whom aren't thrilled with having been made into glorified meter maids either...

You want to make this an argument about the cops when it's really POLICY

Not every cop is unaware that they are being made to enforce things purely for financial gain...

#2: So you think they should be more lenient on DUI's so that people feels less reason not to drive drunk and put others in danger? That makes no sense. You are more concerned with people being able to pay for a taxi than the lives driving drunk puts in danger. I for one, wish the rest of the country had the Phoenix DUI policies.

#3: We both know they don't just arrest youths for being outside. Come on man, be serious and intellectually honest. If any kids are out during curfew, the police tell them they have to get inside. If they can't the police call their parents and have them come get them. The only times arrests happen are if there are actual crimes beyond curfew going on.

#4: I still have no clue what you are talking about here. I have been all over that valley, and never see police harassing people for being outside. If there are groups walking through a neighborhood late at night, I see no problem with police asking what they are doing. I have never ever seen cops harassing anyone purely because they don't look like they have money. Never. ever.

#5: Same point, you care more about people's ability to pay for a cab than the danger these people put others in. You need to remember what the job of the police is. It is to protect the general public from danger and harm. DUI's whether in a car or on a bike endanger others, and it is the legal duty of police to protect the public from that

well they Absolutely DO arrest you for being outside after curfew in Phx... absolutely, the very least will be taken home to parents the 2nd time you go to jail with mother rapers and father killers lol

A moment ago you felt free to explain that you went out to bars now you suddenly know what's going on during the same hrs your indoors to the youth on the streets right?

your one place at night or the other

Just like a moment ago you were unaffected by these laws... then you explain how many of your friends have been arrested but continue to contribute to society...

You seem to like to waffle back and forth simply to make a point...

But all I'm actually hearing is...

I'm not getting in trouble so those that are must be wrong...

I Loved Phx too when I got there...

Re visit the thread in 2 years after it has impacted you in a harsher way... it likely inevitably will.

You claimed before also btw...

You don't see people on the streets at night?

Why do you suppose that is if they don't harass you off of them... you admitted it just posts before...

Hardly anyone on the streets....

You are right these measures do reduce crime an accidents...

In a perfectly fascist State in which only those who can afford it are allowed on the streets at night...yes it's a very effective system against crime.... typical lame low level crime....

It doesn't catch serial killers tho, it doesn't banish drug lords, it doesn't stop the kidnappings....

It just keeps regular folk who are apparently as you put it (scum bags disobeying the law) for doing exactly what you do being slightly upper class then them from being outside


You did just explain exactly how you think about it though

It is to protect the general public from danger and harm.

Yes... those who have nice big homes and luxury of cabbing or limo riding around town.... need protection from the rest of those out there who might need to walk or ride a bike, their neighborhoods are off limits in Phx, congregating is not allowed...

The rich and the old always seem to need protection from the poor and the young

And so long as you have the extra few hundred bucks... a month to st with them you wont see the problem nor the dark side of that city...it's quite pretty when facing the right direction...

I had the Luxury of being a One block walk from the best place in town...

I even enjoyed the fact that yeah... by the Biltmore John Mc Cain and I at night both enjoyed the fact that no one else could get in and out of our neighborhood that "didn't belong there"

Didn't much personally have to worry about it being the kidnapping capital of the United States...

The cops were hard at work making sure that rif raff couldn't get in... and it is rather nice being on that end of the coin... really it is...

But it doesn't mean I don't know the truth... that Phx is a class society, that the poor are very abused... I'm not going to label them scum bags and support sheriff Joe lol

Because in the end...it might in the SHORT TERM be good for me...

But a gated community is a fish bowl...

I'd rather everyone else have a chance before one day my gate comes down...










[edit on 18-1-2010 by mopusvindictus]

[edit on 18-1-2010 by mopusvindictus]

Originally posted by Jordan River
that's nothing. I've been bear maced. Or it was the hottest ever mace out on the market.

Um, no one cares.
And considering some of your posts that I've read, you might have had it coming.

reply to post by Matthew Dark


I spent 5 years in Fresno, CA.

I wish we would have had someone that enforced immigration laws. I may not have had to leave.

Yes, any and all officials should be investigated.

I could give a rat's tookus if the illegals get their rights stomped on.

See that word there, illegal? Why must I follow laws and some people do not.

I see, some people are more equal than others.

This whole agenda of allowing illegal immigration is for the purpose of causing problems and division.

If you cannot see that there is no reason for further discussion.

reply to post by endisnighe


What the what?
Who said anything about being pro-illegal immigration?
Are you even reading other people's posts?

Yea I feel sorry for the kid. Child welfare services should be called in and the parents arressted for indangering the welfare of there child and let the parent of that child meet Mr. Arpaio in person while wearing some pink underwear.

[edit on 18-1-2010 by JBA2848]

Here is the real issue with this...do a majority of these protestors even have a clue what it is they are out there protesting?

If you ask many protestors these days their views or their reasoning for being out there marching, holding up signs, covering their faces, yelling, screaming, singing, or whatever else they are doing, MOST of them HAVE NO CLUE what the real issues at hand even are!!!! They normally repeat BS they heard on the MSM or through the rumor mill and look like fools.

If you want to protest, do some research and TRULY understand what your complaint is BEFORE you end up in the middle of a street...just a suggestion...

reply to post by mopusvindictus


They don't work in Northern Europe my friend. The rates of depression and suicide have sky rocketed in those area you talk about, mostly because the people there immediately tried escapism through drugs, booze and hookers. None of which them feel better, and actually most down there road it made to feel worse. But as I stated before, thats their choice and they have to live with the consequences.

Ultimately, this all comes down to ones own choices. People can use to break the law, and they all know the consequences in the Phoenix area. Same way you can vote with your feet and leave the state, as it sounds like you have. And you can vote with your feet by leaving the country if you hate the legal system here so much and hate what they are doing with your tax dollars.

reply to post by johnny2127


Yeah... always the answer of those who have no actual argument...

"If you don't like it leave"

You managed to avoid actually addressing a single point for two pages to sum it up with that

Congratulations...

If they say it often enough it must be true... Himmler would be proud

Originally posted by johnny2127

They don't work in Northern Europe my friend. The rates of depression and suicide have sky rocketed in those area you talk about, mostly because the people there immediately tried escapism through drugs, booze and hookers. None of which them feel better, and actually most down there road it made to feel worse. But as I stated before, thats their choice and they have to live with the consequences.

where did you get your info? "mostly because the people there immediately tried escapism through drugs, booze and hookers." which is more sad, the fact that you fished it outta your behind or that it sounds like just another nonsense from a Bible-thumper? which country uses more drugs than USofA?

reply to post by marsvolta


LOL

TY Volta... I wasn't even going to look up those stats because it is so far beyond the reality of how nice it is now that they have eliminated this oppression of personal behavior it was a ridiculous statement...

Who Does more drugs than the USA Despite this mess... lol No One...

Who has a higher Teen Age suicide rate would be another good question? No One in the first world...

Some people just can't get that misery is worse than preventing a few accidents over all...people have to be allowed to live...especially the poor and down trodden...

Perfect example of how the strictness affects us...

I used to work as a camp counselor every summer 1.2 the others were from Europe half from America...

The Kids who were allowed to drink at 13 went out, KNEW HOW TO DRINK and were very nice to hang out with, the American kids restricted to drinking at 21... were imbeciles by comparison PUKE EVERY WHERE FIGHTS....you name it...

Making people into idiots makes them idiots...

LOVE the band btw if that is where you derived your name from.... they totally rock...

Mars Volta is simply Brilliant... great choice

That's another thing Sheriff Joe doesn't like...

LIVE MUSIC... Tempe was once right up there with Seattle now it's all about THE GAP and Barnes and Noble...

Guys a jerk off.... real stick in the mud...



[edit on 18-1-2010 by mopusvindictus]

Why would they protest Joe Arapio?

Outside of Arizona the Sheriff is quite the American folk hero. He's upholding the law, and doing a pretty good job at it. He's treating criminals like criminals. That's how it's supposed to be, right?

I am pro legal immigration, as a son of immigrants. You can't give those who cut in line a break, no matter how they try to game the system or game people's sympathy. They broke the rules, they have to pay a price. If they came here by cutting the line, don't let them try again for a decade. They ruined their chance.

Originally posted by Flakey

Originally posted by DataWraith
People only take children into that situation as a detterent to the authorities in reciprical actions.
"We can hit you but you can't touch us , we got kids" sot of mentality, and of course all you get is onesided propaganda from both sides, " we're the good guys, we were attacked first".
There is no impartiality from either side I'm afraid. I'm right , your wrong end of.

And in my humble opinion , taking shildren to use as shield is cowardly, if you have to go to a protest you book a childminder to look after the ones your protesting to protect ,you know with ANY protest it stands a chance of turning nasty.

That is some amazing word play but it is no where near honest. Just spin. Ladyskadi mentioned propaganda. Your words are propaganda.

The children were not used as shields. I doubt they were brought along for protections. More than likely the children were brought to share the experience of a peaceful protest. All of our parents put us into all kinds of situations as children and not all situations we were put into ended in the way they expected.

I agree that it is cowardly to use children or for that matter anyone as human shields. I think it is even more vile to blame the parents for the actions of the perpetrators. It demonizes the victims. The victims in this case have already suffered and you compound their suffering by blaming them for the actions of others.

I didnt blame them for their actions, my words are not spin as you suggest, they are my opinion and that is all, children SHOULD witness protests, but from a safe distance, and parents shouldn't put their children into harms way simply to make a statement. EVERY protester KNOWS that any protest no matter how peaceful the intention could turn nasty, some even go to make sure that happens, but to have taken your child to what potentially COULD BE another Tianamen square ( I admit a bit extreme but in this day and age?) is irresponsble on the part of the 'protective' parents.