Chronology of Creation in the Bible... it doesn't start in Genesis!

Great thread and I've been trying to say this for years. Discussion creation is not limited to Genesis when it comes to the Bible. Bits and pieces are told throughout the Writings, Prophets, Torah, and the New Testament. Genesis seems to be somewhat of a creation and recreation account and the others help fill in the holes of what Genesis does not mention.

Originally posted by Locoman8
***snip***
God saw good in his "re-creation" but his former angel Lucifer... now Satan, is the cause of evil and chaos due to his rebellion. God had to change plans but the all-knowing God was prepared. He had every contingency plan mapped out. If ___ happens then I'll place plan A in action. If ____ happens then I'll place plan B in action. The Goal has never changed..... just the road to that goal.

Had to change plans.
Not all-knowing then - is he.

If I recall correctly - free will wasn't an option untill later.

Why does satan posess so much power? and how can he? if we are told that god is the be all and end all, then how could satan possibly lead an attack to overthrow god? would'nt that be a waste of time?

It's just the way things are written/told is as if satan had enough fallen angels on his side, he could overthrow god? how can this be?

Why give lucifer earth aswell? and then send us here to be his playthings? why not send him to mars where their's nobody to harm? we create enough evil ourselve's without the aid of lucifer!

Originally posted by HolgerTheDane
I've learnt that the world is 4.500 million years old. If you're very religious it's not 4.500 million years old it is 6.000 years old.

Well, as a Christain let me say this. Science dates the earth to being 4.5 millions year old, and thats fine with me.

The ONLY THING WE KNOW TODAY THAT IS 6000 Years Old is Adam's Descendants.

This is part of what the Old Testament is an account of. The Begating from Adam, through to Jesus.

This is the ONLY thing dated in Human Years, unless of course you get into Prophecy, but that's another topic altogether.

Ciao

Shane

reply to post by Locoman8


I happen to have a Reese Bible. The order is:
John1:1,2
Paslm 90:2
Gen 1:1
Isaiah 14:12 - 17
Ezekiel 28:13 - 18
Gen 1:2
Jeremiah 4:23 - 26
Isaiah 45: 18
and then Gen 2:4
Then the creation begins.
Job and Luke aren't in the line up. I knew Bro. Reese personally. He was an ardent creationist. Layers of fossils is more likely from the great flood. Fossils creation depends on 1. sudden death, 2. rapid burial, and 3. a lot of pressure. Sound lit the flood to me.
As for the atmosphere thinning out - that was the flood again. IMO the green house theory is the most likely explanation for the difference in life span and all the extra water neeed to flood the earth. The Bible speaks of an huge amount of rain and the fountians of the deep as causeing the flood.
Why do you need evolution at all? Creationism seems so much more logical than evolution.

I am not attempting to pick on your post valiant. You along with various others have asked such questions, and have been left with a similiar impression.

So in an attempt to offer an answer, I chose your post, since it covered the majority of all of this line of queries, and asked in a manner which allows for a complete reply.

Originally posted by valiant
Why does satan posess so much power? and how can he? if we are told that god is the be all and end all, then how could satan possibly lead an attack to overthrow god? would'nt that be a waste of time?

Satan posesses so much power, because he was created this way. It truly is this simple. He held one of the Highest honours in Heaven and failed due to Vainity/Pride.

I think it would be a good thing to first see how Satan once appeared.

Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Now, to be clear, THERE are some, who suggest this passage was about Nebuchadrezzar, but he was never in the Garden. He never was a Cherub. He was not immortal. And only 1 (one) enitity at this point of time is now destine for the Firery Pits of Hell.

Here, we have all these things, that only Satan can standup and be accused of. He was all these things, and did these things, and will answer for these things WHEN hell consumes him infront of the people and "never shalt thou be any more'. (This is another topic)

We should also consider some of his Names.

Satan, Satanel, That Serpent, The Dragon, The Prince of the Power of the Air, The Abomination of Desolation that Daniel spoke of, Apollyon, as well as the questionable Lucifer, you note in the following. (I personally believe Satan is not the Morning Star, but again, that's another topic)

These are just off the top of my head. Are there other names? Just maybe.

Bael, Ishtar, Vulcan, Mercury, and such may well have Origins from Satan.

It's just the way things are written/told is as if satan had enough fallen angels on his side, he could overthrow god? how can this be?

Now, I wish to be clear I feel the Fall occured between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, but we can see references to the Fall, or a Second Fall within the Book of Enoch. 200 of the Angels left their place of habitation, namely being Heaven, and made a pack together. This figure represents 1/3 of the Sons of GOD.
Book of Enoch Chapter 6

Now, sit back and review some of the following.

Sumerian Gods
Greek Gods
Roman Gods
Egyptian Gods

These are the fallen, doing exactly what the Bible expressed they did. Came to earth and have offspring with the daughters of man, and became GODS.

They also had "Gifts" of knowledge to give man.
Book of Enoch Chapter 8

So I would ask you two things.

1: If any of this is anything close to accurate, do you understand the reasons they are refered to as gods?

2: If this is the best Satan can manage to put together, what do you think the other 2/3s would be capible of. (Twice as much as the fallen could anyhow?)

So in light of your question here, I would offer this.

a: Satan KNOWS he can not win, but pride resists common sense from stopping him.

b: Satan will once again, have a free run for some 3 1/2 years to 7 years in a final attempt to win, during this earth age. Again, he knows he can not win. It even get worst than this. After the 1000 years of the Millenium Kingdom, he gets loosed once more, and again, he knows he can not win.

It still doesn't stop him from trying and trying and trying to take as many with him as he can.

And if I did not miss the point, it is actually one small thing he was trying to do in the Garden. Destroy the Bloodline so Jesus couldn't be born as prophecy declared.

Why give lucifer earth aswell? and then send us here to be his playthings? why not send him to mars where their's nobody to harm? we create enough evil ourselve's without the aid of lucifer!

I think if Satan and the fallen did not do as they did, this earth would have been quite a wonderful place. ALL of the problems this earth is currently going thru stem from the acts of the Fallen, and they are doing today, what they did in the days of Noah, only many refer to them as Aliens.

Matthew 24

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck.

Ciao

Shane

reply to post by gstrange42


No, it's not that people are "dum"; it's more like we are sticking to the point the OP made, and that was the timeline and how "off" it is according to the bible. The additional arguments are in accordance with how "off" or whatever you want to call it are. Everyone already knows books were left out, and for the simple reason of continuity, not politics. Please don't take this as an attack, but I'm only trying to refocus your point to the point made, and you're making everyone else "dum" according to a point that was never made except by you.
Maybe it's not everyone else?

reply to post by Shane


Thanks shane for putting the time and effort into your post!

I have not even given it a thought before, that the sumerian/roman/greek/egyptian gods could be the fallen angels, I am still going over this in my head now, very interesting!

I thought about satan just doing it through pride, but again I dismissed(maybe too quickly) the idea and and still thought 'but why?', I can see it, it's just something in my head saying there has to be more to this?

Again though, thankyou gave me quite a bit to ponder!

reply to post by Shane


I'm one of those people who would argue that Ezekiel 28 is about the King of Tyre and not about The Satan of Job. It clearly says at the start that this is about the "King of Tyre".

Now the real question should be is this about the human king of Tyre or is this against "The King of Tyre", as in the same kind of "Kings" that Michael and Gabriel struggled against in the book of Daniel?

There are 70 of these "kings" or chief princes. One for each nation descended from Noah. Only Jacob (Israel) belongs to G-d and is stewarded by its chief prince Michael. These chief princes are also known as Bnai Elohim or "sons of G-d" and interestingly they accompany The Satan of Job into the Adatel (The Court of G-d). In some Jewish lore, "The Satan", is considered the most powerful of the princes, the Prince of Rome.

Ezekiel 28 could easily apply to one of these "Sons of G-d". Interestingly Psalms 82 also mentions falling like one of the princes, who are cursed with mortality, and to die like Adam.

Psalms 82: 6-7

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Now I agree the Book of Enoch may have more value than we think. Just don't get confused and think all of these fallen "angels" are The Satan of Job. Clearly in Job, "The Satan" had yet to fall. Other satans on the other hand like Azazel and others hinted at in Revelations and elsewhere have fallen though. Some are bound on earth, some are like Abaddon imprisoned in the Deep, and some lost their garments of light for the mortal garments of flesh.

reply to post by zachi


I should have noted clearer what this timeline was. The timeline you refer to is correct in chronology. I only used that portion dedicated to the actual creation account from that bible chronology. I used my head with the order from the angelic rebellion to the recreation. Thanks for pointing out the accurate chronology though. Mine still kept in line with the chronology. Creation, rebellion, recreation. that's my main issue. That Genesis was not the beginning of everything.

Here's another interesting thing all found in the first chapter of Genesis.

God created Light the first day and called the light day but

The sun, moon and stars to light upon the earth, he created the fourth day.

Also the firmanent of heaven he placed in the midst of the waters to separate the waters beneath from the waters above. So apparently there is more water beyond the sky and space.

Originally posted by iamnot
Here's another interesting thing all found in the first chapter of Genesis.

God created Light the first day and called the light day but

The sun, moon and stars to light upon the earth, he created the fourth day.

Also the firmanent of heaven he placed in the midst of the waters to separate the waters beneath from the waters above. So apparently there is more water beyond the sky and space.

In creation of light on earth.... the greater light in day and lesser light in night, please note that we're talking about the RE-CREATION of earth which means the sun and stars were still in space because they were already created. In the Genesis account, darkness was separated from the light and the light was called day and the dark was called night. This means there were reorganizations of the earth's atmosphere to allow sunlight to shine through once again and allow eyes to see stars once again. Water was already on earth. The firmament.... or atmosphere separated the water of the earth and water of the sky. this represents the vapors taken up to the sky by clouds to create rain. No space water dude!

Originally posted by katoomer3

Originally posted by allgoodnamesaretaken
Thank you for a thoughtful and logical response to the people who blindly believe in evolution, the idea that everything has been created from a few billion chemical reactions that randomly produced life.

The Church of Evolution is a faith-based religion that requires tremendous amounts of bias, much like the religion of man-made global warming.

Good luck withstanding the slings and arrows that will come from the many ATS members who pride themselves on their hatred of God and particularly Christianity.

Please do NOT generalize everyone who doesn't believe in "your" religion of choice as hating God or Christianity. It's particularly absurd to believe someone hates a being that they don't believe exists. Not all of us non-believers are on a crusade against organized religion.

Please us a little more logic, knowledge, and respect in your future posts.

[edit on 30-12-2009 by katoomer3]

I agree with you 100% but logic is sadly missing when pure faith is needed to explain something. Religion depends on faith without substance and a book written by people 2000 years ago based on events occurring thousands of year before is NOT substance. They are parables , nothing more.

It's so easy to string a bunch of scripture together in such an attempt to make it logically palatable. However, there are enough logical holes in the bible to drive a fleet of aircraft carriers through when one is not subject to these 'confirmation bias' strategies. We could even start with Gen 2 which implies that there were no plants on the earth and no rain, because there was no man to till the ground. Yeah right, no plants or rain before homo sapien.

[edit on 1-1-2010 by whatsup]

This thread is smiply the GAP THEORY revisited. I understand nonbelievers wanting to reconcile worldly philosophy (Evolution)with Christianity, but why are you Christians trying to hold hand with the world? Even if you believe in RE creation, evolution doesn't fit in the gap. Why do think "cut down to the ground" and "cast into the earth" Rev 12:9 are the same event? Hitler was cast down from power, so was Sadam. Suppose instead of a gap, you just believe the Earth was created with apparent age - like Adam and Eve.
Then, you might ask, where did those events in Isaiah and Exekiel take place? In Heaven, of course. Heaven is a place. Perhaps its a planet like earth. Maybe it's near the North Star. Maybe Satan travels back and forth, trying to convince God that the people He created are a total loss. He is the accuser of the brethern, certianly made a lot of trouble for Job. Then, one day (soon) God will rescue all the believers from Earth and seal Satan and those nonbelievers here.
So who needs evolution?? Quit already. It's not a book written by men 2000 years ago, its QUICK (alive) and POWERFUL. You don't need the lame attemps of science (falsely so called) to make you look erudite. Just be wise toward God.

reply to post by zachi


This is not an attempt to join christianity with science or evolution. It's a way of looking at the chronology of the biblical account of earth.

SO, why would you put the temptation of Jesus before creation? God created man and gave him dominion. Satan tempted man and man fell, giving the devil dominion over the earth. The devil had the legal right to offer Jesus all the kingdoms of the world. Jesus refuses with the Word of God. The devil lost his dominion because of the resurrection. Jesus hasn't returned to take possesion yet, but He has the right to do so at any time.

Originally posted by whatsup
It's so easy to string a bunch of scripture together in such an attempt to make it logically palatable. However, there are enough logical holes in the bible to drive a fleet of aircraft carriers through when one is not subject to these 'confirmation bias' strategies. We could even start with Gen 2 which implies that there were no plants on the earth and no rain, because there was no man to till the ground. Yeah right, no plants or rain before homo sapien.

[edit on 1-1-2010 by whatsup]

Man was created last - after plants. No rain until after the flood, ut there are places on Earth tha exist completely on dew. What other "logical holes" do you think exist?

reply to post by zachi


The temptation of Jesus was used as an example of how the Devil works and why there was an angelic rebellion. The main point is to see the three stages of creation...

Creation, Rebellion and Chaos, Re-Creation.

That's the main point I've been trying to get across.

I think we are still in the chaos stage. Recreation will begin with the new heavens and the new Earth.