The Minaret Ban Controversy

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Parallex

In that case, we are both on the same side, but you seem to not be coming from a Secular Humanist Angle. Confusing.

Do you not agree that religion has no place in law or policy decision making? Therefore both sides in the Swiss argument are wrong?

What has worked in every other western country, also works here: Freedom of Religion AND Freedom from Religion. You can practice Religion as long as it does not intrude on others.

I live beside a church that rings church-bells every day. To me thats an intrusion. Ive gotten "kind of used to it", but its an instrusion nevertheless.
Its an even stronger intrusion if it coming from someone not native to the area.

Another point of objection is that it is not our right to interfere with what the Swiss vote on democratically.

I don't agree - it hasn't worked in every western country. In fact it barely ever works. Religious 'undue privilege' caused problems wherever it goes. If someone can garner 'undue privilege' because of a religious belief, it is unfair to those that can't because they don't hold that religious belief - whether they are religious or not.

In the Swiss case here, both sides are being patently unfair to everyone. They want this, they want that - I say neither should have anything - religion is dangerous and should be removed from public life. In that point, I do agree with you in that religion should not 'intrude' into other peoples lives. But I would go further and suggest that all religion be suppressed and removed. It's a sickness.

The Para.

Do you not agree that religion has no place in law or policy decision making? Therefore both sides in the Swiss argument are wrong?

The Para.

Wrong .

If the people who make and live by the laws and the policies are religous then it only makes sense that the way in which they live would be religious . We are talking of Switzerland after all and Switzerland is a democracy . The people of Switzerland have a right to live as they want . The fact that they saw this issue serious enough to have a referendum on the matter shows it is not taken lightly .

In a democracy the people have the power and the Swiss have chosen how they want their home to be . It is their right .

Originally posted by Parallex
religion should not 'intrude' into other peoples lives. But I would go further and suggest that all religion be suppressed and removed. It's a sickness.

Not workable, not reasonable.

It being none of our business what other people do in the privacy of their buildings is more reasonable.

reply to post by Skyfloating

Not workable, not reasonable.

It being none of our business what other people do in the privacy of their buildings is more reasonable.

AMEN

it's not workable - not now - not even in the near future

Plan B: we accept all of our respective nuttiness, put it aside and focus on reasonable solutions that work for all of us - now

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

Plan B: we accept all of our respective nuttiness, put it aside and focus on reasonable solutions that work for all of us - now

Its either that or perish.

At the end of the day the muslim just wants to be left in peace as well and be able to practice his particular lifestyle to the best of his ability. There is still a slight chance that sensibility will prevail

reply to post by Skyfloating

There is still a slight chance that sensibility will prevail

:-)

it's the only thing that gets me up every morning - this slight chance

that - and the birds

I think they should stay in their own countries if they want to build minarets. I'm sick of these people coming to europe and trying to enforce their views.

It is going to end in tears. Far right extremism is on the rise and is being fuelled by issues like this. I support some of the policies of parties like the BNP but I wouldnt want them running the country.

[edit on 7/12/09 by neformore]

reply to post by neformore

Is history repeating itself - are the muslims of today the jews of 1930's Europe?

yes

thank you for saying it

it's the subtle things - not the over the top messages - that contribute to the "feeling" that something is wrong with "these people"

Skyfloating should in no way take this to mean that I accuse him of sending this type of message - because I most certainly don't

we all need to slow down and think about what the other person is saying - really saying

I do feel very strongly however that every time an issue such as this is raised it's worth asking the question - what is this really about?

where will it lead us?



[edit on 12/7/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

Originally posted by neformore
If they are going to ban Minarets, are they banning church towers as well?

If the argument is about the call to prayer, will the church bells be silenced?

The comparison is unfair as certainly the west is as habituated to bells as arabs/persians are habituated to the chanting - which is also very much louder.

Whats more, some of us feel the bells are an intrusion too. Putting 5 chants a day on top of that is taking the intrusion a bit too far.

Is this about religious freedom, intolerance or simple ignorance?

Its about having ones piece and quiet from people enforcing their lifestyle on you.

I´ll take arab food over American food any day (and even more over British food, Im sorry to say) but I would not have that attitude if I were forced to eat arab food.

Lets face it, the absolute frenzied mistrust and (sometimes) outright hate propaganda against muslims and anything islamic is prevalent and obvious on ATS,

Being skeptical of Islams intentions in Switzerland does not equate hate-propaganda. Neither Islamophobia. Just pointing that out to make sure.

which is a snapshot of society as a whole - so will this kind of thing become a societal norm? Are people falling into a trap of their own making?

As time progresses you will see a LOT more of this coming up. And Islam-haters/racists are not the only problem here, neformore.

Those who try to paint criticism as hate-speech and suppress any sort of critical opinion towards the Religion are also creating a lot of hate.

As I said earlier, "I would be willing to grant Minarets and even Prayer had it not been forced down my throat"

Is history repeating itself - are the muslims of today the jews of 1930's Europe?

Not hardly. Muslims make up a majority of the worlds population while Jews made up a Minority.

Are they to be persecuted whereever they live because of the act of extremists on 9/11 (an act which an awful lot of people on ATS don't believe was carried out by muslims btw) and the highly dubious war in Iraq (and Afghanistan, if you believe 9/11 was an inside job).

Quite possible that someone benefits from a conflict between the West and Islam, from a Conflict between Soviets and Americans, from a Conflict between Nazis and the West.

But this should not distract from the very real fact that Islamic Values and Western Values are on a Collision Course and then it will get very ugly if there is not some form international effort at sustained Dialogue.

Where will this end? Gas chambers and liquidation? Nuclear annihilation?

It all begins with thoughts of hate and then escalates. It all begins with the thoughts we think right here.

This simple act raises some very difficult questions that society needs to face, because the many are being blamed for the actions of a few.

Most of us are able to differentiate between Moderate muslims and those who are not. I am.

And no, I don't buy the cherry picked scare mongering hate sites. I don't believe Islam is out to get me.

I dont think Islam is out to get me. But I do know that it is not true that we in the west are much more intolerant than the average muslim.

Ive spent entire vacations not as much as even glancing at women in muslim countries because I know its disrespectful to do so. I take my shoes off before entering a house in India.

Why? When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

I think this ban is petty and pointless - minaret building could easily have been regulated through an urban planning process.

Mosques arent being banned. Giant loudspeakers are.

That said, I dont really have a problem with Minarets being built.

I really do have a problem with all critics being silenced as "right wing nutjobs and islamophobes" because it sets a negative-standard for future international relations.

We should be allowed to criticise Christians, Jews, Muslims and anyone else for that matter without being stigmatized as a crazy bigot.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

I do feel very strongly however that every time an issue such as this is raised it's worth asking the question - what is this really about?

where will it lead us?

If differing sides get together and talk it out respectfully, a service to humanity has been done by showing that this is how things can be discussed.

Even if ATS is only a miniature, it still has an impact on mass-consciousness.

Sometimes this type of discussion (based on reason and fairness) is happening on ATS - sometimes not.

It is going to end in tears. Far right extremism is on the rise and is being fuelled by issues like this. I support some of the policies of parties like the BNP but I wouldnt want them running the country.

Personally I put distance between myself and right-wing parties - many of us are not political at all, we're normal folk who dont want to be pushed around by religion and politics.

[edit on 7-12-2009 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by Skyfloating


Sorry, but muslims don't "want to be left in peace...". They want to spread their belief and along with it, control of others, just like christians do. It figures, they're the same religion, just a different flavor.

I don't care for either verison of the same crap.

Mohammed belongs in the same nutjob bag as Jesus, except he's less tolerant and more murderous.

I have a neighbor who lights up a gigantic cross every night and disturbs my view of the stars with his pollution. It's fine if he wants to be Christian, but keep it out of my face, dammit, it's just rude. if your particular god needs the ego-stroking of tall towers, prayer calls, and light-up-the night displays, he's not a very mature god in my book.

If a religion's followers can't behave themselves and keep it in their pants and not wave it in my face, then by all means ban them.

I really get sick of three branches of the very same religion creating so many problems for everyone else because they each think the others are full of it. Guess what? They're ALL full of it.

They did not ban Mosques.

They banned Minarets.

The difference seems unappreciated here.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Those who try to paint criticism as hate-speech and suppress any sort of critical opinion towards the Religion are also creating a lot of hate.

Oh I agree. But those who try to paint hate speech as criticism are far, far worse, are they not?

We should be allowed to criticise Christians, Jews, Muslims and anyone else for that matter without being stigmatized as a crazy bigot.

I agree, if it stops at criticism only, the world would be a better place. Sadly many cross the line.

But if you think I was accusing you of hate speech, you are sorely mistaken.

I do understand the difference between the two.

I also understand that, for whatever reasons Islamic things are the bogeyman du jour, just as communism once was.
But most importantly, I think that suppressing one religious symbol, or belief system, is an attack on freedom of expression, an open invitation to extremists, and a catalyst for longer term problems in the future. Its not conducive to good community relations at all.

Originally posted by neformore
Its not conducive to good community relations at all.

Maybe so. In a good world, we agree to their Minarets and they agree to keep the noise down, especially in the early morning hours.

But those who try to paint hate speech as criticism are far, far worse, are they not?

Yes they are worse.

[edit on 7-12-2009 by Skyfloating]

Does anyone think this will become an issue in other countries too?

reply to post by Skyfloating

But Minarets are not Mosques. They are the towers from which very loud prayers, often using loudspeakers, are sung five times a day. For non-muslims and westerners this is seen as an intrusion and an obnoxious one for many.

Well I have to say I would agree with the Swiss, having to put up with that din would drive me crazy.Perhaps a compromise could be reached, instead of a loud prayers they could be persuade to play the announcements from M.A.S.H. In such a hostile world that would cheer me up no end.

reply to post by Skyfloating

If muslims expect to be able to do that throughout the west, there is trouble coming up on the horizon.

Don't know what it's like with you but with me if mohammed decides to pray loud enough for me to have to endure it, then a quick trip down to Environmental Health will sort it out a bit quick.

If they get planning permission to build these things then fair enough, no different to anyone else s planning application, but rock and roll, Allah begging or church bells is a bloody no no.

If some sod started doing that around me, I'd be straight round theirs at 3am with Slipknot blasting out the back of my car.