The Minaret Ban Controversy

Okay ya'll...
Folks, maybe muslim immigration is bigger than is the christian immigration into Iran- so no surprise the numbers of churches and mosques throughout the world don't match. You need to look at the size of the religious communities in each country and thus you can tell, wether muslims might be getting more buildings per head than christians do abroad.
Secondly, yes, it's got nothing to do with freedom of religion. Neither does it have anything to do with freedom from religion. They don't use speakers, the right-wingers only sought a soft way of taking away the manlihood to it all by cutting the size of these "erect" structures, if you catch my drift. Implementing a ban on anything that is muslim would be their ultima ratio I believe, but surely this would have outraged everybody. But this way people feel they are empowering themselves against a perceived threat while in fact their actions cast only very little consequence apart from disturbing the mindset of the people around the globe.

In what way do this actually unnecessary structures threaten european freedoms? They aren't used to call out propaganda because they're not even available to the muezzins.

It's only a genitals-oriented fixation of the right-wingers...It's a frigging building alright, it's not like it's gonna hurt anybody apart from their pride.

Anyway muslim immigration to europe is great because this increases the percentage of christians living in muslim countries. That's what you asked for, right?

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Parallex
SkyFloating, are you a Christian?

Just as importantly, where are you from?

My 'fundie' alarm has just been tripped.

Your first post assumes Im an Islamophobe, your second assumes Im a Christian.

A quick review of my thread-history will reveal to you that Im far from being a Christian. A review of my last post will reveal that Im not an Islamophobe.

Leave your prejudice at the door and discuss the points brought up.

Typical.

You've assumed my first post was aimed at you, NO it wasn't. You're over-sensitive and need a hug. I was making the point that Christianity or any other religion are all irrelevant, and should not be brought into policy making decisions.

Yes my second post questioned whether or not you were a Christian, and also asked where you are from. You answered neither question. You are also forgetting to use your non-moderator contribution tool.

I have no prejudices regarding religion, I just have a 'fundie' detector, and you're exhibiting some 'fundie' characteristics.

The Para.

Originally posted by zazzafrazz
Again you are basing your arguement on something that doesnt happen in Switzerland. They do not blare through loudspeakers and this was not in the referndum.

They intend to use Minarets in the same way they use them anywhere else. Minarets are used for worship.

The only reason they dont use them that way yet is because of opposition.

I never called you a right wing nut job? I'll leave my discussion at reiterrating the above point.. your kinda antsy tonight

Yes, I get antsy because this thread isnt even one page old and the labels fundie-christian, right-wing xenophobe and islamophobe have already been dropped at the mere questioning of intentions.

No offense though.

One more thing: Its a difference whether I hang up Christmas Lights in America or in Egypt.

Originally posted by Parallex
I have no prejudices regarding religion, I just have a 'fundie' detector, and you're exhibiting some 'fundie' characteristics.

You still havent answered the first question posed to you.

Another one: In opposing exaggerated religious fundamentalism, I am myself a "fundie"?

That doesnt make any sense at all.

[edit on 7-12-2009 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by Skyfloating

right-wing xenophobe

Unless your a member of the right wing party that sponsored the referedum which is who i was referring to and quoted, you don't need to take it personally as it was not directed at you.

Gnite, Im off to sleep, and heck I may even tune into Islamic radio...lol!

Originally posted by thricearound
It's only a genitals-oriented fixation of the right-wingers...It's a frigging building alright, it's not like it's gonna hurt anybody apart from their pride.

Yes, the psycho-spiritual symbolism is significant. What is being opposed is religious dominance.

We`ve overcome the age of religious bigotry and do not want succesors of it erecting their symbols of dominance

Originally posted by zazzafrazz
Gnite, Im off to sleep, and heck I may even tune into Islamic radio...lol!

Yes, the chanting of the Koran. Highly recommended. Gnite.

[edit on 7-12-2009 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by Parallex
Yes my second post questioned whether or not you were a Christian, and also asked where you are from.

My place of birth is the U.S., I live in Europe (Ive lived in Switzerland before).

But thats not relevant to not liking loudspeakers voicing politics and religion. My opposition to it does not come from being a Christian - I am not - it comes from being opposed to religious indoctrination.


[edit on 7-12-2009 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by thricearound
Okay ya'll...
Folks, maybe muslim immigration is bigger than is the christian immigration into Iran- so no surprise the numbers of churches and mosques throughout the world don't match. You need to look at the size of the religious communities in each country and thus you can tell, wether muslims might be getting more buildings per head than christians do abroad.


Anyway muslim immigration to europe is great because this increases the percentage of christians living in muslim countries. That's what you asked for, right?

These 2 parts of your post are ubsurd Islamic countries in no way see any increase in other religions because they are not allowed.

A. By law (lets see you try and build a christian church in Iran,Afghanistan, Sudia Arabia)

B. Complete hostility by the natives that are brainwashed into thinking all other religious types not of there own are sub human and must be killed.

These countries are often the worst examples of racisum and religious intolorance.

I have no issue with anyone practing there religion until they feel the need to ram it down my throat with loud speakers and bells if it happens at all times of the day. Or by trying to change the local culture to suit there own barbaric practises of hate against anyone that is not of there own.

Try going to live in parts of Bradford or london and see how welcome and safe you feel and I mean that for any of the relgious communites that segregate themselves form all of there neighbours.

reply to post by Skyfloating


This is a local government issue on public planning IMHO. This is not about Muslim rights but conscientious public planning with a whole community being the major value of importance.

We have similar issues with Muslim Schools and Mosques in Sydney. Councils will knock back building applications that create massive issues for local residents but the issue becomes a race or religious intolerance issue when these applications are denied. The rationale for these applications failing are always valid planning concerns that would relate to any type of development and how it impacts on local residents.

But this card is alway played, religious intolerance and racism.

I think it harms the cause more than solves any community issues.

Well, here's what one Swiss wrote to a Turkish newspaper:

It happened because of real and perceived fear but more importantly because it said 'we are not tolerating the intolerant anymore.' We are tired of the overt hypocrisy of the Islamic world when it comes to religious and human rights. We are outraged because:

1) Muslims are allowed to do dawa, build/repair mosques, and openly practice their faith in the West. Yet in the Islamic world these are severely restricted if not outright prohibited.

2) The Islamic world can bleat on and on about Israel yet ignore Turkey still occupies half of Cyprus

3) Again the Islamic world can fixate on Israel claiming genocide yet ignore an actual genocide in Darfur at the hands of their fellow Muslims. The entire Israeli Arab conflicts has claimed 50,000 lives while Darfur over 2 million since the early 90's.

4) The Islamic world says their religion is one of peace and tolerance yet every year Islamic states make up a who's who of the world worst human and religious rights abusers.

5) Turkey can make demands of Germany to import Islamic teachers and clergy but when a German MP suggests the opposite a resounding no is his the answer he gets.

6) The OIC can propose Defamation of Religions legislation at the UN despite its members clearly not believing it hold true for their own countries. Read the Cairo Declaration of Human rights and pay attention to what it says about religious freedom.

7) It is always the other guys fault for our societies ills. We in the West did not force the Islamic world to reject critical thinking(Greek thought.) It was the Islamic world who did this on their own basically saying imitating the infidel was tantamount to heresy. Read Al Ghazali's work 'The Incoherence of the Philosophers' for perspective.

8) Only one demographic group in Europe has created literally hundreds of no go areas. You don't hear about Hindus, Buddhists, or any other faith group creating these kinds of areas.

9) The fact that religious minorities get smaller and smaller each year in the Islamic world largely due to persecution.

10) Muslims can convert us but the other way around is viewed as a provocation.

11) Islamic scripture unlike any other faithactually defines Islam in terms of conquering and destroying other religions and abrogates to itself a moral purity in the course of doing so.

Maybe Muslims need to experience a 'Christian' version of Sharia to experience the full extent of the draconian laws our co-religionists are forced to live with every day. After reading the Quran, a Hadith source, and the Sira I often come to the conclusion it can't happen and that is the crux of the problem.

www.hurriyetdailynews.com...




[edit on 7-12-2009 by undermind]

As I said, if I were in charge I would have granted them their wish to have Minarets.

I only start getting pissed off when guests in the country begin to force the issue as their "civil right" and vilify any opposition as "Islamophobe".

I am truly shocked by the intolerance shown on this thread! How dare anyone deny Muslims their right to build Minarets in Western nations. What right do Westerners have to deny the construction of an Islamic religious monument on their soil? Isn't it 2009? Who cares if it leads to its intended purpose of emphasising the 5-times-a-day call to prayer? What difference does it make to your life? Just wear ear-plugs at times when those tones sound. Don't understand the language being spoken? Learn the language. Don't force English on others because they may be offended.

Those dam X-mas decorations are rammed down our throat. I cannot go to the supermarket without seeing Santa marshmallows everywhere! Please, I cannot take the unrelenting display of X-mas merchandise that is advertised in all the shops. What right does a Christian nation have to impose Christian traditions and customs on its citizens? And then to think they have the audacity to deny Islamic architectural expressions inside their own non-Islamic nations?

Disagree? Just look how tolerant, warm and receptive those Islamic nations have been to our displays of Western culture and identity in their nations. I think the facts speak for themselves...

[edit on 7/12/2009 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by Dark Ghost


You know I cant really tell if you are being sarcastic or not but I hope so because if not your post made no sense to me at all

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
I am truly shocked by the intolerance shown on this thread! How dare anyone deny Muslims their right to build Minarets in Western nations. What right do Westerners have to deny the construction of an Islamic religious monument on their soil? Isn't it 2009?

The question is: Who is more intolerant, the Swiss or the muslims who demand to build Minarets there?

I always wonder why the vanguards of human-rights and tolerance always speak in defense of non-moderate-muslims

[edit on 7-12-2009 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by Skyfloating

Blaring political messages out of loudspeakers is out of the question in western civilization. If muslims expect to be able to do that throughout the west, there is trouble coming up on the horizon.

I don't think Muslims are exactly striving to fit into the community, though, are they? They seem to like going against the grains of society, in the UK they establish their own neighborhoods, same in France, and in the US the mosques are often hotbeds for political ideology as well as religious.

However, in the US I believe the Mosques would have a Constitutional right to use minarets to announce daily prayer..

The basis for the Swiss ban is that the Minarets are actually unconstitutional (well, from one perspective I guess) ..

One thing I did find interesting, was the Catholic Church apparently was against the Minaret Ban.

Islam is growing, spreading and taking hold in the West. Christianity is dieing. Atheism is on the rise. It could lead to some major conflicts down the road.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
However, in the US I believe the Mosques would have a Constitutional right to use minarets to announce daily prayer..

Would you happen to know if there are Minarets in the US?

One thing I did find interesting, was the Catholic Church apparently was against the Minaret Ban.

Both Catholics and Jews are siding with the Muslims on this. Thats pretty interesting.

Islam is growing, spreading and taking hold in the West. Christianity is dieing. Atheism is on the rise. It could lead to some major conflicts down the road.

Christianity-haters, among them many atheists, have been defending Islam under the banner of "Tolerance". I dont think they are aware that Christianity dying and Islam rising will get them out of the frying pan into the fire.

reply to post by Skyfloating

Would you happen to know if there are Minarets in the US?

I've never seen one.. I have never even heard of one outside of the ME honestly.. and google'n didn't help, it's like the World just added the word to it's vocabulary and all searches lead to the Swiss lol..

Both Catholics and Jews are siding with the Muslims on this. Thats pretty interesting.

I blame a lot of encroaching Islamification and social abuse by Muslims on institutions like the Church, who have the power, the numbers and the money to combat them with a PR campaign of their own.. But, we live in an age where Pope's bow to Mecca .. soo...

Christianity-haters, among them many atheists, have been defending Islam under the banner of "Tolerance". I dont think they are aware that Christianity dying and Islam rising will get them out of the frying pan into the fire.

I agree. Though I must say I am biased, Islam is one of the very few religions I admit, I do not like one bit. I like nothing about it. And I am not being a red neck Christian, because I rant endlessly about Christians and their intolerance as well.

I am curious to know if there are many churches in places like Tehran and Riyadh etc and if they are allowed to ring bells etc?

For years I've been defending and supporting Palestinians/Muslims against the Israeli invasion of Palestinian lands


Then I realised what was happening -- what was going on

It shocked me to realise that even though I didn't believe I was a 'Sheepie' -- I nevertheless am. Or was

I've read in numerous sources ( including Zionists' diary excerpts) that the zionists and jewish heirarchy had numerous opportunities to get jews out of Europe -- yet refused, declined, failed to do so. Their diaries reveal that they believe it expedient to sacrifice thousands of jews to the cause -- the cause being the determination to wrest Palestine from Europe

And it worked. Without the claims of 6 million, the zionists wouldn't have been able to take Palestine or justify the genocide of Palestinians ever since

Why did it take me so long to work out that exactly the same tactic is being used right now --- only this time, it's Palestinians who are being sacrificed in order to justify what amounts to a Muslim invasion of the West ?

Why didn't I see it earlier ?

Oh sure, I knew zionists were behind the imposition of millions of muslims on Western populations. It could be no other group. After all, most Western governments are dominated by zionists, are puppets to zionist schemes

And zionists own/control 96% of the world's media and it's the world's media which focuses the Sheepies attention on Gaza, on the plight of Palestinian muslims

But they had us fooled, didn't they ? I mean how many of us were awake to the fact that the same zionists who imposed 'politically correct speech' on the West and turned 'racism' into a household word --- are in fact the orchestrators of the muslim invasion of the West ?

They've been playing a convoluted game and we've been falling for it. They've been perpetrating atrocities on Palestinians and stealing Palestinian lands and we've been up in arms about it. They focused our attention on Palestine to the point we've been blind to what's been happening to us !

While Israel's been invading and seizing Palestine --- muslims have been invading and seizing our lands and cultures !

Muslims scream that Israel and zionists are invading, seizing and destroying them. Yet Muslims are invading our towns, our cultures, our rights, our laws, our traditions

And zionists are working hand in hand with the Muslims they profess to oppose and Muslims are working hand in hand with the zionists and israelis they claim are their enemies

... when all along, WE are their prey, WE are the ones they want to destroy, WE are considered their mutual foe


I listen to muslims now, screeching in rage and fury because of a minor blip in the fast-moving grand plan

It's not the minarets they care about. Their rage is because for once, they aren't exerting that absolute control which they feel is their right .. the right to sweep aside everyone and everything, all the time claiming they are the 'religion of peace'

This isn't about religion. It's about control, invasion, domination


I'd like to see some respect shown by muslims. Not just the words which flow so easily from them .. no, some genuine respect for their HOSTS' cultures, rights, traditions, opinions

but I'm not seeing any


The other thing I'd like to see .. first priority .. would be for muslims to be clambering aboard planes and heading back from whence they came

because I don't remember ANY referendums asking if I would like millions of muslims in my land. In fact, I don't know anyone who invited muslims to their lands. The invitations were extended by those criminals posing as our elected political representatives who fudge the immigration figures. And my vote will be letting them know just what I feel about their extending invitations to a people who don't seem to have a clue that this is 2009, not 809.

[edit on 7-12-2009 by Dock9]