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The Minaret Ban Controversy

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posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 04:22 AM
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The swiss Minaret Ban Controversy is the latest chapter in a war of values between the West and Islam. It raises many interesting questions that will be of importance in the Future:

What are the limits of Religious Tolerance?

Should we Tolerate Intolerance?

How will this issue be handled in other western countries?


Amnesty International termed the vote as a violation of freedom of religion and demanded from the Swiss Supreme Court to intervene and overturn the outcome before it is made part of the constitution.
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The PC and Human Rights crowd claims that banning minarets means the Swiss lack religious tolerance.

But Minarets are not Mosques. They are the towers from which very loud prayers, often using loudspeakers, are sung five times a day. For non-muslims and westerners this is seen as an intrusion and an obnoxious one for many.

How would Muslims feel if I cranked up some of my Rock or Electronic Music so that the whole neighbourhood could hear it?

And yet, outrage and pressure continues to be exerted from all sides, not wanting to allow Switzerland to make its own decisions as a sovereign nation.


the Secretary of OIC, called the ban an example of growing anti-Islamic incitement in Europe by the extremist, anti-immigrant, xenophobic, racist, scare-mongering ultra-right politicians who reign over common sense, wisdom and universal values.



the move was "at odds with the protection of Muslim citizens' civil rights and will hurt the feelings of Muslims across the world," according to Iran's state television. Calmy-Rey told Mottaki her government would "use all its means to support Muslims rights," according to IRNA.
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(The shiites of Iran fail to mention that the Swiss host many more mosques than Iran hosts churches)

I would venture a guess that if muslim factions and civil rights groups would be more friendly about it rather than try to force the issue or demand that it is their "civil right" to craft the soundscape and city-scape of Switzerland, Switzerland may have granted them their wish.

Any human being is more likely to grant a request that is politely asked for rather than demanded with force.

But calling anyone who does not want to be pestered by loud chanting 5 times a day and does not want to be forced to change their own property by force outside of that property a "xenophone racist" and "enemy of the muslim world" is just wrong in my opinion and sets a bad standard for the future of international relations.

If I were in charge I would have granted them their wish to have Minarets if they hadnt started forcing the issue in a fanatical manner.

Thoughts?

[edit on 7-12-2009 by Skyfloating]




posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 04:38 AM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 




The PC and Human Rights crowd claims that banning minarets means the Swiss lack religious tolerance.


the PC Human Rights crowd lack Religious tolerance.

In the city where I live they had a Tree lighting. not a Christmas Tree. not even a Holiday Tree. Just a Tree. All the signs said "Tree", all the public officials simply refer to "The Tree". They announce it was "for everyone" ....

two weeks later, they are having a chanukah Menorah Lighting.

NOT a "Candle Stick Lighting" ..

So they see a number of Swiss banning minaret as being intolerant .. while I agree, I also agree with the Swiss who want the ban, stating that the towers are being used as a political symbol, rather than religious. (They are supposed to be used to call out to the city for daily prayers) But there was no rules as to what could be said over their loud speakers.. religious messages, or political .. apparently, quite a bit of it was political.



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 04:45 AM
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I think this should be more about intolerance of architecture. Architects should be up in arms saying "How dare you limit our creative direction with some poxy law relating to obsolete religion?"

I don't think there should be ANY laws regarding a religious subject. All religion does is garner 'undue privilege' for a the few, against the many. In this case, Islamophobia from a deeply Christian nation has gone on the warpath and shows no signs of disappearing. It was the Jews in the second world war, it will be the Muslims in the third world war.

The Para.



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 04:55 AM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
But there was no rules as to what could be said over their loud speakers.. religious messages, or political .. apparently, quite a bit of it was political.


Blaring political messages out of loudspeakers is out of the question in western civilization. If muslims expect to be able to do that throughout the west, there is trouble coming up on the horizon.



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 05:00 AM
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Originally posted by Parallex
IIn this case, Islamophobia from a deeply Christian nation has gone on the warpath and shows no signs of disappearing.


So if I dont want to be pestered by loud chanting 5 times a day I am an Islamophobe?




It was the Jews in the second world war, it will be the Muslims in the third world war.


Yes. It was the West vs Nazism in WWII, West vs East in the Cold War and it will be the West vs Mid-East in the next War.

Unless muslims learn some tolerance. It is not we that have to learn tolerance. We already grant freedom of religion (AND freedom FROM religion)

[edit on 7-12-2009 by Skyfloating]



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 05:06 AM
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People have a right to piece and quiet, and to be free to go about their business without being bombarded by religious or political propaganda. Muslims should learn to be tolerant of the ideals of those who allow them to be guests in their countries. If they feel the need to spew their dogma five times a day, there are plenty of Muslim countries that will let them do just that without question. It's called respect.



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 05:09 AM
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Hmm Christmas decorations, lights everywhere, forcing the communites to spend money that has nothing to do with prayer, can't walk down a street without the "spirit of Christmas" slapping budhists, muslims, jews, athiests, agnostics etc in the face.
Church bells ringing, all over Europe daily and several times a day.......
I could list lots

Why is one ok and not the other?
I dont think its a matter of a "draawing a line" of what you should accept visually from religions, this is more a matter of the Swiss drew a line over which Religions they would accept


What I cant find is was this a minaret ban or a call to prayer ban? They can still do the call to prayer without a minaret?

I personally think they look lovely, Islamic architecture is some of the most beautiful in the world. So if not about banning the call to prayer, the minaret ban is just vilification of Islam.



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 05:18 AM
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Originally posted by zazzafrazz
Hmm Christmas decorations, lights everywhere, forcing the communites to spend money that has nothing to do with prayer, can't walk down a street without the "spirit of Christmas" slapping budhists, muslims, jews, athiests, agnostics etc in the face.
Church bells ringing, all over Europe daily and several times a day.......
I could list lots

Why is one ok and not the other?


Because we are not forcing this part of our culture we have been accustomed to since hundreds of years down the throats of muslim countries by implementing it there.

We are leaving them alone and not demanding christmas markets be set up in Libya, Jemen, Iran.

We are not threatening muslims should they fail to set up Christmas markets.

We are not demanding to blare politics and religion through loudspeakers in their countries.

Its called respect.



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 05:21 AM
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Originally posted by zazzafrazz
What I cant find is was this a minaret ban or a call to prayer ban? They can still do the call to prayer without a minaret?


The west has a tradition of tolerance and would neither ban mosques nor islamic decoration nor calls to prayer.

It would ban blaring propaganda voiced from Minarets that, with loudspeakers, give your voice a range of a few miles.



he minaret ban is just vilification of Islam


Switzerland has hundreds of mosques and has been protecting Islam since ages.


[edit on 7-12-2009 by Skyfloating]



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 05:21 AM
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The minaret is "one part of our religion and culture, and we have the right to it," said Mutalip Karaademi. Minarets are not used to call Muslims to prayer in Switzerland.

www.latimes.com...

Ok found it

it was for minarets, not the call to prayer, so this was a useless excercise for a whole country to vote on other than if it was bigotted in purpose. Ok this is a far right sponsored xenophobic piece of nonesence. There a re four in switzerland, The minarets are hardly imposing and intruding on the average swiss persons life, I wish I could ban half the hideous arctitecture from the 70s and 80s, but i got not religion to vilify....so its not gonna happen




There are only four minarets atop mosques in the small Alpine country, but the two right-wing parties that sponsored the referendum cast it as a political question about the assimilation of Muslims into Swiss life. The minaret "is a political symbol against integration; a symbol more of segregation, and first of all, a symbol to try to introduce Sharia law parallel to Swiss rights," Ulrich Schluer said in a telephone interview. Schluer is one of the leaders of the Egerkingen Committee, which authored the bill, and a lawmaker from the conservative Swiss People's Party.





It would ban blaring propaganda voiced from Minarets that, with loudspeakers, give your voice a range of a few miles.


They can still blare through louspeakers on a wall, as this was not the referundum, it was minarets. but the point is in Switzerland they do not use the minarets for call to prayer....




[edit on 7-12-2009 by zazzafrazz]



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 05:24 AM
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[edit on 7-12-2009 by Skyfloating]



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 05:29 AM
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Originally posted by zazzafrazz
they do not use the minarets for call to prayer....


Of course they do. Thats the whole point of Minarets. To get some religious and political handle over neighbourhoods, over the souls and minds of the people.

Those wanting to blare political propaganda over a mile-wide-radius are not right-wing-not-jobs, but us, who oppose it, are?

[edit on 7-12-2009 by Skyfloating]



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 05:30 AM
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reply to post by zazzafrazz
 


If the ban had nothing to do with the call to prayer then it is far from bigoted, in fact it has nothing to do with religion at all but everything to do with aesthetics. That being the case it also has sod all to do with tolerance and those complaining about the decision are just whining and latching on to the non-existent religious element in order to create an argument that shouldn't even exist.



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 05:36 AM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by zazzafrazz
they do not use the minarets for call to prayer....


Of course they do. Thats the whole point of Minarets. To get some religious and political handle over neighbourhoods, over the souls and minds of the people.

Those wanting to blare political propaganda over a mile-wide-radius are not right-wing-not-jobs, but us, who oppose it, are?

[edit on 7-12-2009 by Skyfloating]


Sky you've lost me, and misrepresented what I said by not including the "in Switzerland" part....in Switzerland they do not use the minarets for call to prayer which I what I was said.
"Minarets are not used to call Muslims to prayer in Switzerland."


As I mentioned they can still do a call to prayer without a minaret as this was not banned, so the whole excercise is pretty fruitless yes?.......as a side note, the call to prayer I love to hear whenever I'm travelling through the middle east its so relaxing. But guess its a matter of personal taste.
And here is some stunning Islamic Architecture, quite breathtaking, I dont see how it can be percieved as offensive. Aesthetics as I noted earlier there are far worse architectural crimes to humanity than a minaret, and believing its aestheitcs driven and not a far right dig at a religion is kinda like believing in the tooth fairy





[edit on 7-12-2009 by zazzafrazz]



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 05:41 AM
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I am a person who believes that any country I am in I should repect there values, there laws, there ways.

Yet All the pro islam people feel they we should change our ways to make them feel better.

Islam FORCES its self on the countries it is in and the people that live in those countries.

My personal feeling is if you don't like the practises of the country you CHOOSE to live you should leave.

Theres no getting away from the many so called immigrants running from oppersion, hate and political problems manage to some how make it across the whole of europe to the very back end to get to the UK.

Then when they are here they want us to change to suit them.



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 05:41 AM
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SkyFloating, are you a Christian?

Just as importantly, where are you from?

My 'fundie' alarm has just been tripped.

The Para.



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 05:43 AM
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Originally posted by zazzafrazz
Sky you've lost me....in Switzerland they do not which I what I was said.
"Minarets are not used to call Muslims to prayer in Switzerland."


Yes, they are not because us "right-wing nutjobs" oppose that.



As I mentioned they can still do a call to prayer without a minaret as this was not banned, so the whole excercise is pretty fruitless yes?


The Iranian threats are fruitless.



........besides the call to prayer I love to hear whenever I'm travelling through the middle east its so relaxing. But guess its a matter of personal taste.


I travelled Emirates Airlines recently. During that flight I chose a radio-channel that was featuring non-stop chants of the Koran. I listened to it throughout the whole flight because it was beautiful. I also like Islamic artwork.

But thats only me. Forcing what many consider an intrusion on the population in general has nothing to do with religious rights. If I consider techno beautiful, would it be OK for me to run it 5 times a day, for the benefit of the neighbourhood?



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 05:49 AM
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Originally posted by Parallex
SkyFloating, are you a Christian?

Just as importantly, where are you from?

My 'fundie' alarm has just been tripped.



Your first post assumes Im an Islamophobe, your second assumes Im a Christian.

A quick review of my thread-history will reveal to you that Im far from being a Christian. A review of my last post will reveal that Im not an Islamophobe.

Leave your prejudice at the door and discuss the points brought up.



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 05:51 AM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


Again you are basing your arguement on something that doesnt happen in Switzerland. They do not blare through loudspeakers and this was not in the referndum.

I never called you a right wing nut job? I didn't bring up Iran and thats kinda taking me completely different to this thread purpose so I wont address that if thats cool... I'll leave my discussion at reiterrating the above paragraph... your kinda antsy tonight




[edit on 7-12-2009 by zazzafrazz]






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