The Minaret Ban Controversy

Originally posted by Skyfloating


Im glad you managed to agree that the OP is a valid point for discussion rather than a "bait thread" as you originally said.

[edit on 7-12-2009 by Skyfloating]

Well, had you have read my posts properly instead of just picking out your one word then twisting it, you would have seen that i agreed and actually wanted to discuss this point, which i pointed out several times.


Not sure what your problem is but as Zazz said on page one..."you're antsy"

I'd say rude and obtuse... but hey... you wont read this anyway,
You'll stop after one word at the top.

Discussion-Points:

Not everyone who questions Islam is an Islamophobe.

Id grant it the right to build Minaretes if they can keep the noise down.

No I dont want to get earplugs.

No I dont think all the prayers and voices are beautiful.

[edit on 7-12-2009 by Skyfloating]

So we sit here and discuss what is right for a country who has taken a stand for what they will and will not tolerate in religious agendas. Shouldnt this be the right of the swiss people. If the sounds coming out of minerits are Arabic who will know what is being said other than than the Muslims who speak the language. Leave them alone and let the Swiss decide for themselves what is right for their country, if muslms dont like it..go elsewheres there is plenty of free land in Iraq and I'm sure they'll support the desire for minerits it makes a great sniper's platform.!

reply to post by jbmitch


They say its a "human rights issue" but seem not to care about the rights of the swiss.

Originally posted by Skyfloating


When called out on it, you say "Oh, I dont mean the OP"

Give me a break

Again context my friend.
I could go through your posts and make you out to have said stuff that wasn't quite how you said it.


Right.... Let's try and sort this out, i know you're doing it on purpose... I've seen you do it time and time again... and i ain't biting dude



I said you like to start these baiting threads... that comment was mainly about your "fanatical muslims vs the free world" which you linked as a related thread?

How the *Bleep* is that related to anything?
The thread was a joke... a twisted little experiment by you.


And when i said I'll leave you to the ignorance and pointlessness that is your thread... i meant previous comments... the ignorant fools that these topics usually attract, but you know that right?
That's why you started this thread.... because there was actually no need... already plenty of minaret threads....

I f i have to spell everything out i will.... i didn't realise that you had such difficulty reading posts either.
I had to state 3 times what my views were on your OP... and then you didn't even want to discuss it.. after trying to ridicule me for not wanting to discuss the OP?


Not sure what games you're playing or what you're trying to achieve... but it's pathetic, transparent and totally pointless.

If you want to discuss something.... let me know.

If you want to play games, which is apparent, carry on.


What a great example you set to us all Skyfloating.
You are such an inspiration...your maturity, your debate skills.... wow... I'm in awe.

[edit on 7/12/09 by blupblup]

If the people of Switzerland have voted in a referendum not to have minarets , for whatever reason , i beleive that is their right .

In the centre Edinburgh where i live no one is allowed to build tall buildings as it affects our so called famous skyline whether it is a monument to a god or to money . There is no uproar about this . This is what the people of Edinburgh have decided ,it is accepted , this is how we live .

Why is it so wrong for the Swiss to decide they do not want a certain type of building in their country ? Do not forget that all of the people who this concerns , ie the Swiss , have had a chance to have their say on this , not like the second gulf war .

As far as the Iranians are concerned what right have they to expect another country to bow down to external pressure ? It's not as if they are a shining example themselves , ignoring the worlds requests , rightly or wrongly , for assurances on their own nuclear project .

I beleive that the Swiss have a right to determine what is and is not built inside the borders of Switzerland just as i beleive the same of the Iranians .

Originally posted by blupblup
I said you like to start these baiting threads... that comment was mainly about your "fanatical muslims vs the free world" which you linked as a related thread?

Alright, if you say so. But I dont consider that a baiting thread either. It is my view that after the cold-war islam vs the-west is the next long-term world-issue unless we get some moderate people on both sides to speak up.

If that doesnt happen I think its going to get ugly.

How the *Bleep* is that related to anything? The thread was a joke... a twisted little experiment by you.

Not at all. I stand behind the message of the thread.

the ignorant fools that these topics usually attract, but you know that right?

Yes. Its a difficult subject full of extreme viewpoints and charged rhetoric.

i didn't realise that you had such difficulty reading posts either.

Alright.

it's pathetic, transparent and totally pointless.

Alright.

What a great example you set to us all Skyfloating. You are such an inspiration...your maturity, your debate skills.... wow... I'm in awe.

Alright.

All personal-attacks and no substance.

reply to post by Skyfloating


I would agree with them if the Muslim population was the only human population in Swizterland. Are there native Swiss that have been in Switzerland for generations and they are just now getting around to wanting to change the landscape of their native country or are they muslim oppertunist who left their country of orign to find a "better life" only to change the one that they have infiltrated?
Talk about intolerant,,,
You want to know the future, look at the past, look at every "free" world that resorted to a Secatarian state (Iraq would be a good example), then look at an Arab (that is prodomiantly Muslim) country that has a non-secatarian government (Egypt). Big difference ..any wonder why the Swiss have no interest in being the next tolerant country to go in history as a Secatarian Islamic State. And YES this is where this minerit thing is leading over time.. What you want to eat Arabic Cheese and Mulism Chocolate Goats Milk! I guarentee you there are no blue eyed blondes under those Burka's

[edit on 7-12-2009 by jbmitch]

Originally posted by jbmitch
Are there native Swiss that have been is Switzerland for generations and they are just now getting around to wanting to change the landscape of their native country or are this muslim oppertunist who left their country of orign to find a "better life" on to change the one that they have infiltrated?
Talk about intolerant

Its a good question and I think I can answer it from what Ive heard from swiss people I know: It is more outside-influences than swiss-muslims campaigning for this.

reply to post by swiftfootedachilleus


And thats the core-issue of this thread. The right of a nation to determine their own ways.

My area also has a ban on high buildings and nobody is complaining about it.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Alright, if you say so. But I dont consider that a baiting thread either.

Er, even other mods and most members that posted on that thread felt the same?

Your maps were just stupid and your whole argument absolutely hollow.

I can't believe you even link to that piece of crap... i would ashamed and embarrassed of it.

Not at all. I stand behind the message of the thread.

I think the message got lost in the sloppy, ignorant and piss-poor presentation of the thread.

But that's nice to know that you stand by that

Alright.

Alright.

Alright.

All personal-attacks and no substance.

All astute and perfectly valid observations that are actually reinforced by your "display" in this very thread.

Man...

Why did i even bother..

reply to post by Skyfloating

The question is: Who is more intolerant, the Swiss or the muslims who demand to build Minarets there?

interesting question

the fact that Islamic nations are not even a little bit tolerant of our ways has been brought up - more than a few times

well - no kidding :-)

why all the immigration into the west do you suppose?

I wonder - why pretend that we are tolerant in the west if we really aren't?

why allow people to immigrate - but then ask them to check their person-hood at the door - leave it with the coat check girl - you can pick it up again on your way out...

I always wonder why the vanguards of human-rights and tolerance always speak in defense of non-moderate-muslims

because defending human rights - even the most extreme or even ludicrous cases - is what it's all about

it works for all of us Skyfloating - and I'm not telling you anything you don't know

as far as the basic points in your OP - I agree

but the basic points never end up being about what it's about - no matter what our intentions really are

like background radiation - even honest questions can end up contributing towards background intolerance

Originally posted by blupblup
that piece of crap... i would ashamed and embarrassed of it.

sloppy, ignorant and piss-poor presentation of the thread.

Alright.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Parallex
Yes my second post questioned whether or not you were a Christian, and also asked where you are from.

My place of birth is the U.S., I live in Europe (Ive lived in Switzerland before).

But thats not relevant to not liking loudspeakers voicing politics and religion. My opposition to it does not come from being a Christian - I am not - it comes from being opposed to religious indoctrination.


[edit on 7-12-2009 by Skyfloating]

In that case, we are both on the same side, but you seem to not be coming from a Secular Humanist Angle. Confusing.

Do you not agree that religion has no place in law or policy decision making? Therefore both sides in the Swiss argument are wrong?

The Para.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
but the basic points never end up being about what it's about - no matter what our intentions really are like background radiation - even honest questions can end up contributing towards background intolerance

It has been suggested that for the sake of peace the whole matter should not be brought up. I dont know what to think about that though.

Id certainly feel better without this thread. But the issue will crop up again and again as muslims ask to build Minarets in other countries.

A compromise would be to have them build the Minarets but keep the noise down.

reply to post by Parallex

Do you not agree that religion has no place in law or policy decision making? Therefore both sides in the Swiss argument are wrong?

:-) thank you - there you go

all of this will be worked out - slowly, painfully - eventually

inclusion is the only way

when everybody leaves their beliefs outside the door and looks at the problem based on what is the most workable solution - for the entire community - then we'll have something

but - it's harder for any group of people to do what's best for their community if they feel persecuted - locked outside that community

it's up to everyone - the Muslims included - to accept all the differences and make it work

before we get to that point we have to start letting go of the pride and the fear

Originally posted by Parallex

In that case, we are both on the same side, but you seem to not be coming from a Secular Humanist Angle. Confusing.

Do you not agree that religion has no place in law or policy decision making? Therefore both sides in the Swiss argument are wrong?

What has worked in every other western country, also works here: Freedom of Religion AND Freedom from Religion. You can practice Religion as long as it does not intrude on others.

I live beside a church that rings church-bells every day. To me thats an intrusion. Ive gotten "kind of used to it", but its an instrusion nevertheless.
Its an even stronger intrusion if it coming from someone not native to the area.

Another point of objection is that it is not our right to interfere with what the Swiss vote on democratically.

The Technophobe

My neighbour plays loud techno music everyday. I dont like it and object. The house votes on it and bans it. He can still play it, but not for all to hear.

People from outside are outraged. "You're a technophobe!" they say. "You need to embrace differences, be more tolerant! Let go of your fear and pride!" Some say it is not for me to decide what happens in my apartment and want to set up speakers in my living room.

A Club on the other side of town is issuing warnings towards me.



[edit on 7-12-2009 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by Skyfloating

It has been suggested that for the sake of peace the whole matter should not be brought up. I dont know what to think about that though.

well - not by me - that's not what I'm hinting at

I've opened my big mouth enough times for everyone to know - I mean to talk about it

all of it - the good, the bad - and the ugly

just don't be surprised by what you get back :-)

(I know you're not)

from my point of view - and just mine - it is going to get ugly

what I see: every time the west digs in it's heels we contribute towards the very thing we'd most like to avoid

As I said, if I were in charge I would have granted them their wish to have Minarets. I only start getting pissed off when guests in the country begin to force the issue as their "civil right" and vilify any opposition as "Islamophobe".

I love this Sky - I do :-)

because I'm just like that

and this is exactly how it happens - it stops being about what it's about - and becomes about something else

Just wanted to point out that my previous post was sarcastic. Sometimes it is difficult to tell on the internet, so be assured that I was posting in a sarcastic tone.

My Previous Post

I support Switzerland's right to ban building any more minarets in their own country. This is not about intolerance on Switzerland's part, it is about failure of Muslim communities to integrate and accept Western culture & ideals whilst living in a non-Islamic nation.

For those who believe this is racist, Islamophobic, biotry etc. the question is: at what point will the line be drawn? At what point are the Swiss allowed to say "that would be against our culture and ideals" without being labelled intolerant? Do you think it would be a good time to question these things when bells start chiming 5 times a day and the country is under Sharia Law?

[edit on 7/12/2009 by Dark Ghost]