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The Minaret Ban Controversy

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posted on Dec, 9 2009 @ 06:09 AM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


all fair Skyfloating - and you're right - it does go both ways

have you not noticed - not just here at ATS - but everywhere (everywhere) how much anti-Muslim rhetoric there is either floating around or shoved directly in our faces?

it's constant

and what are the sources?



It is apparent that here and in society in general, it is no longer allowed to reasonably and critically discuss issues that concern us all.


oh - but that's not true at all

you're just feeling it personally because people disagree with you

from your own OP:

Amnesty International termed the vote as a violation of freedom of religion and demanded from the Swiss Supreme Court to intervene and overturn the outcome before it is made part of the constitution.


that's what this is about

by the way - this is how democracy works – we get to question stuff

we all know what’s happened so far – seems fair

the reason it's not being discussed the way you think it should be is because then you went ahead and said this:



The PC and Human Rights crowd claims that banning minarets means the Swiss lack religious tolerance.


them is fightin’ words mister – and that is what set the tone :-)

seriously, Skyfloating ...The Human Rights Crowd?

really – what are we to make of that?


It is a suppression of this, that creates the hate-mongering-bigot. The "lets all be nice now and not talk like this"-PC-thought-police literally creates its polar opposite.


but why can’t we all just get along? :-)

it is also not what creates the hate mongering bigot – you want to blame that on the politically correct?

it’s like blaming Miss Manners for Howard Stern

the term Politically Correct became an insult instead of just a description a few years back

lets just say – I took it exactly the way you meant it


Throughout this thread Ive learned that maybe we need to be more wary of the PC than the muslim.


with one simple sentence – we now know how you see both the Muslim – and the Politically Correct

so in this thread – everyone gets to be offended

[edit on 12/9/2009 by Spiramirabilis]




posted on Dec, 9 2009 @ 06:53 AM
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A democratic decision by the Swiss electorate on a Swiss issue.

Should really be end of story.

But no, once again accusations of racism, (a misnomer) and bigotry by Muslims, their apologists and the PC Brigade.

Is it intolerance?
Certainly no more so than ignoring the wishes of the majority!

Islam is an all encompassing religion which dictates every action of it's followers and is the antithesis of free will, thought and speech.
None of the Islamic nations are even remotely democratic, and that is their choice and I have no problem with that.
Indeed we should stop trying to impose a political system on them which is so obviously alien to their culture's.

Due to one of it's basic tenet's which allows followers to use any tactic available to further the spread of Islam, followers use our freedoms to change the very society that we live in and to ultimately deny us those self same rights.

It is not Muslims per se that I dislike, rather the idealogical control system called Islam which makes people act as they do that I dislike and distrust.
I feel no sense of racial superiority over anyone and have many good friends of different race's and creed's.

But I am sick to the pit of my stomach over the activities of Islamic followers and apologists.
I for one will resist to my dying breath the spread of this odious and barbaric belief system.

Is that being intolerant?
I care not...I show them the same level of tolerance that they show me!

If that upset's anyone, tough...it is what it is.



posted on Dec, 9 2009 @ 06:58 AM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 





...it is what it is.


yup - you've made your position very clear

I make no apologies for trying my best to defend the rights of other people - all people



posted on Dec, 9 2009 @ 07:02 AM
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reply to post by Spiramirabilis
 


The rights of a minority over the rights of a majority?

A very tricky and complicated situation which philosophers and politicians have been arguing over since time immorial.

I tried to make it clear I have no problem with Muslims...it is Islam that is the root of my dislike and distrust.

All organised religions are controlling, Islam is particularly so and is barbaric and unwielding with it.


[edit on 9/12/09 by Freeborn]



posted on Dec, 9 2009 @ 07:21 AM
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I think people have missed the real issue at heart here. This is not about demonising Muslims or defaming Islam. This is about stopping people from trying to impose the values and customs of their native country or culture in a foreign country, usually at the expense at those already living there.

Please reverse the situation and you will see how ridiculous it is. British citizens decide they want to emigrate to Iran. After living there for a few months, they convince friends and family to come along....

Can you see where this is heading?

[edit on 9/12/2009 by Dark Ghost]



posted on Dec, 9 2009 @ 07:29 AM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 





The rights of a minority over the rights of a majority?

A very tricky and complicated situation which philosophers and politicians have been arguing over since time immorial.


the rights of people - human rights

if you work on human rights - you don't need to focus so much on that pesky many/few thing

until the many and the few start up again - there is that

but of course - this is just your standard PC clap trap

I believe in it though - silly me - I think it's a much better approach than war or genocide

it's funny - the people who always claim that war is unavoidable are usually the first ones ready to go to war

duh

I leave it to politicians (heaven help us) and philosophers to argue over the numbers, territories and who wins the pissing contest trophy

that would be a swell looking trophy though :-)


I tried to make it clear I have no problem with Muslims...it is Islam that is the root of my dislike and distrust.


is that anything like hating Zionism but tolerating Jews - as long as Jews don't have anything to do with Zionism - but then - how would you know which are which - so - you end up hating all of them anyhow 'cause it's just easier?

I think it must be something like that


All organised religions are controlling, Islam is particularly so and is barbaric and unwielding with it.


so - in a world that's being controlled by organized religion - you've decided to specialize?

sorry - every religion has blood on it's hands

try focusing on doing what's right for all of us - that's even less thinking

it doesn't mean that the problems will go away - I am aware

it's still a better approach than the alternative

[edit on 12/9/2009 by Spiramirabilis]



posted on Dec, 9 2009 @ 07:39 AM
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reply to post by Dark Ghost
 





I think people have missed the real issue at heart here. This is not about demonising Muslims or defaming Islam. This is about stopping people from trying to impose the values and customs of their native country or culture in a foreign country, usually at the expense at those already living there.


I understand what you're saying - but these countries are not made up of all one type of people - they are a mixture of peoples and cultures - have been for quite some time

if you live in a country that claims to be a democracy - that accepts different people and allows for freedom of religion - you don't get to pick and choose

you do get to vote - that's how it works - that's how it should work

I hear people use the words "guests in our country"

well - if they are citizens - they are not your guests

they are just like you

but they aren't - are they?

so - let's be honest about what people are really saying: we like our culture - we like our ways - we like us

and if they come here - they have to be just like us

regardless of what we pretend to be - this is what we really are - and it has nothing to do with freedom of anything


[edit on 12/9/2009 by Spiramirabilis]



posted on Dec, 9 2009 @ 07:45 AM
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reply to post by Spiramirabilis
 


But that is the very crux of the matter with Islam and those you are supporting.

They want to use 'human rights' to get into a position so that they can deny me my 'human rights' as they do not recognise 'human rights' but are willing to use them and exploit them to get what they want.

Human Rights and Islam are at extreme opposites to each other.
Islam controls every aspect of a followers life; human rights allows for a certain amount of freedom of will and thought...the very antithesis of Islam.



posted on Dec, 9 2009 @ 07:49 AM
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Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
have you not noticed - not just here at ATS - but everywhere (everywhere) how much anti-Muslim rhetoric there is either floating around or shoved directly in our faces?


I, like many others, have denounced such rhetoric and the political scene that promotes it. Has nothing to do with us or the OP.



Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
have you not noticed - not just here at ATS - but everywhere (everywhere) how much anti-Muslim rhetoric there is either floating around or shoved directly in our faces?


Oh those poor abused muslims!

...not.

The West, and especially Switzerland, have treated them with utmost respect and tolerance. In Europe we protect their religion. We support their integration. We reach out and extend a hand, try to learn from their culture and show them ours. This is the factual reality of the situation. To imply that we or the Swiss are muslim-hating bigots is distortion.

What approval ratings do extreme-right-wing-parties have? Usually around 1%, 5% at the most.

So why then is it pretended that these 1% are representative of the overall attitude toward muslims?



by the way - this is how democracy works – we get to question stuff


The Minaret Ban was democratically chosen. Thats how democracy works.




seriously, Skyfloating ...The Human Rights Crowd?


Yes, exactly. The "Human Rights" crowd, the crowd that says those poor muslims are being abused and persecuted by the Swiss because they wont allow them to blare religious propaganda from towers.



but why can’t we all just get along? :-)


The swiss and the muslims got along just fine until outside political-agendas began trying to interfere.



posted on Dec, 9 2009 @ 08:05 AM
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Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Please reverse the situation and you will see how ridiculous it is. British citizens decide they want to emigrate to Iran. After living there for a few months, they convince friends and family to come along....


Oh thats nothing. Wait til the British start playing cricket on holy muslim grounds.



posted on Dec, 9 2009 @ 08:13 AM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


it's interesting Skyfloating that your entire response to my having taken offense - at an offense that was clearly given - to be defensiveness

how about - I didn't really mean it like that Spira

:-)

I'm guessing it's because - you really did mean it like that Sky LOL!

sorry - no quarter - you didn't have to go about this one the way that you did

I've already said - I have no problem with how it was resolved in Switzerland - bully for them!

and I mean that - sincerely



I, like many others, have denounced such rhetoric and the political scene that promotes it. Has nothing to do with us or the OP.


don't i know it - I have never once said otherwise - or implied it for that matter

my entire presence in this thread is only because - I have an issue with the entire attitude (not just yours) against - the PC thing

it is not wrong to put a system through it's paces or hold people accountable for their actions - in fact - it's the only thing that keeps it all in working order

it's the pesky, whiny human rights nut jobs that ensure that it gets done

PCs are annoying - yes - I know

PCs are bleeding hearts - got it

PCs wear their hearts on their sleeves - they love kittens, rainbows and unicorns...(maybe)

some people like to make sure other people are treated right - that's me

it's not my job - though maybe it should be

lord knows I'm a few short steps away from donning a cape and mask and referring to myself in the third person as some sort of Avenger

but you don't get to treat us like we're the problem

the whole thing was just paperwork and taxes - democracy - worked just the way it was supposed to

:-)

[edit on 12/9/2009 by Spiramirabilis]



posted on Dec, 9 2009 @ 08:16 AM
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Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
but of course - this is just your standard PC clap trap

I believe in it though - silly me - I think it's a much better approach than war or genocide


"Its either our way or war and genocide". False Dichotomy, espoused by the timid. I can have a fight with my spouse without physical agression.




every religion has blood on it's hands


Generalization in order to deflect from the issue at hand.




it's still a better approach than the alternative


No. I will tell them I would prefer Minarets be kept low-noise, or built outside of town or not built at all.

And I dont want too many of them built either. My country embraces the idea of Religion being a private event that should never be forced upon others, much less through loudspeaker promotion.

In some countries this is actually allowed...political parties and religions drive around in a car with huge loudspeakers and force their cause into anyones ears. Its obnoxious.

And its sad that even Amnesty International embraces this, in disrespect of the Swiss vote. I considered AI to be an organization that respects peoples rights.



posted on Dec, 9 2009 @ 08:21 AM
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Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
some people like to make sure other people are treated right - that's me


The aim of the PC here is to have the minority (Muslims in Switzerland) be "treated right", without regards to the Swiss being treated right.

Then there is the added false implication that the Swiss have been mistreating them.



[edit on 9-12-2009 by Skyfloating]



posted on Dec, 9 2009 @ 08:48 AM
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reply to post by Spiramirabilis
 


Just one more thing (and sorry about not being nice and friendly with you, this is much too important of a topic for mankinds future to be flowery about it):

One of the most vocal recent critics of the "Swiss Human Rights abuse" is Irans Ahmadinejad. Now there's a real pioneer in Human Rights


This whole issue has hidden-agenda written all over it.

[edit on 9-12-2009 by Skyfloating]



posted on Dec, 9 2009 @ 09:04 AM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 



talk about deflection - this isn't a debate - not this time

you and I are bickering

:-)

or did you not know that?

but, OK - here we go...



"Its either our way or war and genocide". False Dichotomy, espoused by the timid. I can have a fight with my spouse without physical agression.


you callin' me yella? seriously?

I’m all about the fight – if you were paying attention you’d see – and fighting it out in public

that’s EXACTLY what I believe in – because it’s the better alternative to, yes – war and genocide

no where did I suggest that I was thinking potlucks or Sunday socials

standing up for human rights – what exactly about that is so confusing?

today it’s squabbling over the call to prayer – tomorrow it’s whole neighborhoods lobbing grenades at each other

you think it’s wrong to try and work these things out before they escalate?

and do you think it’s wrong for people to want what they want?

that’s really what this is about – isn’t it?



Generalization in order to deflect from the issue at hand.


technically correct Sky – it is a generalization – but not to deflect

establishing that Islam doesn’t have the market cornered on bloodshed or mayhem – so singling it out for special treatment – seems unnecessary

at least to the peaceniks :-)



No. I will tell them I would prefer Minarets be kept low-noise, or built outside of town or not built at all.


and how is that not a better alternative to war – and then continuing on – how can you not get that this is what I mean - exactly?


My country embraces the idea of Religion being a private event that should never be forced upon others, much less through loudspeaker promotion.


does your country also embrace the concept of freedom of religion? Does your country allow for it’s citizens to practice their religion – as they wish? Even if practicing that religion is really noisy? If not - what then?

It becomes a legal issue

Are you suggesting that it should never get that far?

Are you suggesting that things would never get that far – if it wasn’t for the Human Rights Crowd?

why, yes – I believe you are :-)


And its sad that even Amnesty International embraces this, in disrespect of the Swiss vote. I considered AI to be an organization that respects peoples rights.


as I’ve mentioned – there is nothing wrong with putting it out there – and making people fight for the same things over and over again – this is how the system works. It has to keep moving – or it dies

it doesn’t take much imagination to see – if you don’t fight for the smaller stuff up front – then in the end – people will die

it really is just that simple

human rights – it’s for the humans – all the humans



posted on Dec, 9 2009 @ 09:22 AM
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Lets pretend for a moment that you are my neighbour and that your weeds are growing into my garden. For many years I did not mind, but so many have grown into my garden now that it impedes my own garden in many ways. I have now asked you to cut it, and the neighbourhood agrees that you should, its been voted on. From this perspective, lets listen to your talk.



today it’s squabbling over weeds and bushes – tomorrow it’s whole neighborhoods lobbing grenades at each other


Please sir, I just dont want these weeds growing over to my side. Thats all, really.




you think it’s wrong to try and work these things out before they escalate?


There is nothing to work out here, I just dont want all of this stuff in my garden. I have this vision of my garden, and...




establishing that my weed doesn’t have the market cornered on bloodshed or mayhem – so singling it out for special treatment – seems unnecessary


So if you could simply see to it that the weed is cut...




does your country also embrace the concept of freedom of weed growth?


Yes, if it does not impede on others.



human rights – it’s for the humans – all the humans


Sure, but I do have the right to this garden, you know?

[edit on 9-12-2009 by Skyfloating]



posted on Dec, 9 2009 @ 09:35 AM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 


:-)

that was kinda sweet

and simple

but - I won't go there....

do you think I don't understand you Sky?

are you going to pretend you don't understand me?

there's nothing left to see here - we should really move along...

I thought what you said was really, really mean

and it made me mad

simple enough?

:-)



posted on Dec, 9 2009 @ 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

I thought what you said was really, really mean

and it made me mad



Yes. And you`d prefer us all to get along.




posted on Dec, 9 2009 @ 01:07 PM
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Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by Dark Ghost
 


you do get to vote - that's how it works - that's how it should work



Forgive me if I have missed something but was this not a democratic decision that was voted on? It seems like you are saying that this is wrong because democracy should trump democracy?



posted on Dec, 9 2009 @ 01:49 PM
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reply to post by Skyfloating
 



I would prefer it Sky

up to all of us - or at least both of us

(you threw the first stone)

:-)



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