Don't be fooled by ATS' professional debunkers

Originally posted by dragonridr
Just though id point out a construction manager is the person that hires and schedules workers to build they no nothing of architecture

No, you assume he doesn't know anything about it. Do you know what he majored in? Structural engineering would be a more relevant field in this case than architecture anyway.

Oh and by the way check out the size of a 707 this was the first passenger jet and isn't very big at all about half the size of a 747

The planes that hit the towers were 767s.

reply to post by TrueTruth

Even so, they have nothing to lose, because they have no goal.

The truth movement does - and it begins with trying to establish credibility, a prerequisite to which is a reliable set of facts we can agree on

Your also missing the fact that the OS believers have no evidences to support their claims none what so ever. Which only opens the door to all kinds of theories don’t you agree?

reply to post by impressme


The truth will never come out keep trying i'd it to come up but it wont mate

reply to post by GoldenFleece


Nope, that's when the computer lab closes for cleaning. Your fixation on me, is quite unhealthy.

Originally posted by GoldenFleece
reply to post by technical difficulties

 

Does this answer your question? 31 minutes after I posted, the "F-16 fixer" who monitors every 9/11 thread 24/7 has responded to my "crap".

Right now, it's almost 2:00am in Baghdad. I guess F-16 mechanics don't have to get up early. Since there are so few F-16s that need maintenance and repair, they must have unlimited free time to post on ATS, tirelessly defending the government's absurd official story.
[edit on 2-12-2009 by GoldenFleece]

Okay for those of you who wish to see just how fixated this person is on me, do some basic research, my last 250 posts (or so) are listed on my profile and pay attention to the date/time stamp (he always fails to do this basic research).

In addition, he seems concerned that I dont have to get up early...

And yes, my last post was around 2AM (Baghdad time) this morning, I got off work at 12:30 AM, came to the cyber cafe to chat with my wife and see what kind of attacks Goldy had launched at me between my last break at work and then. I was richly rewarded.

reply to post by jerico65


And Jerico, once again, right on the money. I wish the individual would try to trace the IP my messages come from...that would lead to a truly hilarious post I am sure.


For the rest of the Posters, (especially my fan club) this (Thursday) is my day off.....cause I know someone will try to use that I am posting at 15:40 Baghdad time as proof I am on here 24/7.....

reply to post by mike dangerously


This has been discussed so many times on here its amazing that you havent seen some of the posts. As has been stated numerous times, sure, some explosions were heard. However, hearing an explosion during an office building fire, does not mean there were bombs involved. On numerous occasions, posts have been made that are literally hundreds of objects in a building that will explode during a fire, chemicals, oxygen tanks in first aid rooms, almost any pressurized can (air freshener, Pledge, etc) will explode in the face of intense heat/flame. In addition, a steel I Beam giving way under stress makes a loud boom too. Does not mean that loud boom, was a bomb.

Of course, that does not stop the truth movement from taking first responder statements out of context, or misquoting, or flat out lying about the the responder was talking about.

reply to post by mike dangerously


He has. Of course, the constant reposting of articles that have been torn apart on numerous occasions gets boring. I mean, after the 10th time I have responded and shown that David Ray Griffen's books are full of crap....why post the 11th response?

"What difference does it make what a debunkers motive is? What difference does it make if they are paid to do what they do, or do it for fun?"

If I am a professional debunker and my "job" is to keep the masses in the dark about 9/11, or confuse them with smoke and mirrors, I think this would seriously affect my credibility. If someone is paying me to regurgitate Government propaganda over and over again, my purpose on this forum would not be to argue facts, it would be to keep the brain dead masses from getting any ideas, like they had the wool pulled over their eyes on 9/11.

Look at the media - they get paid very well to spread propaganda on a daily basis. Whether it is playing doctored videos with "cartoon airplanes" inserted into them, jumping to kneejerk conclusions about the guilty parties about 9/11 without doing one shred of investigation and perpetuating lies like a plane hit the Pentagon, they obviously have a dog in this fight. If they were not being paid or benefiting in some other way (example: increased advertising revenue), do you think they would keep perpetuating these myths?

Once you are being paid to argue a point, your credibility flies out the window because there is a conflict of interest. An analogy would be General Electric (a large military contractor) owning NBC. Since GE is obviously making huge sums of money with these wars, is it not in NBC's self interest to spread propaganda supporting the war? Sure, this is on a large scale, but it also applies to a small individual scale.

Paying operatives to do a head job on the public is nothing new. On the other hand, if the truth was on your side, you wouldn't have to pay anybody to advertise it. Most people who have a conscience and do not have ulterior motives, will stand up and defend the truth. You do not have to pay them to do that, since this is human nature. You pay when you have to advertise and protect lies since most people will not defend a lie unless there is $omething in it for them.

[edit on 3-12-2009 by SphinxMontreal]

[edit on 3-12-2009 by SphinxMontreal]

[edit on 3-12-2009 by SphinxMontreal]

reply to post by impressme


like i said.

irrelevent. they aren't trying to sell a message. all they have to do is poke holes in ours. we're the ones with the burden of proof. we're the ones who care about something different happening.

everyone is stuck in a 'winning on a message board' mentality.

we need to advance to a 'selling the message' mentality.



don't be dragged to their level - the tit for tat - sound and fury signifying nothing.


we'll get nowhere ranting about dancing israelis, nano thermite, or whether or not the planes should have been able to make certain maneuvers.

the focus ought to be on the coverup - selling the fact that the government lied to us, is much much easier. focusing on the parts of the OS that don't add up is easier, and then we aren't stuck looking like fools if we get something wrong.

let the burden of coming up with answers stay with them.

that's my take.



[edit on 3-12-2009 by TrueTruth]

reply to post by SphinxMontreal


Again - it's not about us vs them, or who has more personal integrity or credibility.

If we could so much as decide on 5 basic facets of the issue to focus on, that we could argue with consistency and clarity, and were the most immune to dismissal, we'd be getting somewhere.

If you insist on giving a crap about trying to address THEIR credibility, you've already lost. They've pulled you down into mud slinging, instead of doing anything useful.

This is why I have more or less loss interest in this topic over time... it's just a giant flame war. Nobody cares enough about reaching the broader audience.

That's all anyone seems to care about - meaningless internet victories.

It's depressing.

what i can't believe is why are debunkers not willing to have an INDEPENDENT investigation if they are so sure of themselves and of the government story?? the pilots for truth, the engineers for truth, have thousands of non-believers in their organizations wanting an investigation, but apparently these professionals are just crackpots or don't know what they are talking about. this is one of the many reasons i don't believe the government story. having said that, after 8 years, it is obvious that the real people that planned this and carried it out will never be held accountable. everybody's got to get used to the idea that we live in a country controlled by others and not by the voters. with everything that has gone on, this is just the way it is. and if you go too far down the rabbit hole or get too close to someone of power, you, or your family, will end up dead. it's really pretty simple.

[edit on 3-12-2009 by jimmyx]

Originally posted by mike dangerously
I have a challenge to all the debunkers here if you all feel that the witnesses who heard explosions are liars then say so.Instead of hiding behind semantics and attacks against the 9/11 movement.Do you guys really believe those first responders are lying?

You "Truthers" are such poor readers.

Sorry to ruin your day again:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

When you decide to be intellectually honest and provide positive evidence of explosives, get back to us, otherwise we will you continue to laugh at your evasions.

Originally posted by RipCurl


Please list them. Also link to peer reviewed articles by respectable journals that address these "lies".

I'm curious, do any of these peer reviewed articles by "respectable"(mainstream) journals explain how a progressive collapse generated the energy to to turn hundreds of pounds of concrete into powder and propel a steel beam hundreds of yards into another building?

It would go a long way in shutting truthers up.








[edit on 12/3/2009 by CallMeBlu]

Originally posted by jimmyx
what i can't believe is why are debunkers not willing to have an INDEPENDENT investigation if they are so sure of themselves and of the government story?? the pilots for truth, the engineers for truth, have thousands of non-believers in their organizations wanting an investigation, but apparently these professionals are just crackpots or don't know what they are talking about. this is one of the many reasons i don't believe the government story. having said that, after 8 years, it is obvious that the real people that planned this and carried it out will never be held accountable. everybody's got to get used to the idea that we live in a country controlled by others and not by the voters. with everything that has gone on, this is just the way it is. and if you go too far down the rabbit hole or get too close to someone of power, you, or your family, will end up dead. it's really pretty simple.

[edit on 3-12-2009 by jimmyx]

What would be the basis of an "independant" investigation? Who would run it? P4T? Craig and Aldo? They have already shown a distinct propensity for twisting the truth and making things up as they go along.

Who would decide what "independant" really means in regards to 9/11? Where would the funding come from? Who would provide the investigators, with the skills/authority necessary to dig into overseas computer networks to trace the money?


Everyone that is clamoring for an "independant" investigation, in not so many words, are clueless about what would be needed.

Not to mention, that the lion's share of the evidence is going to come from a Government (which NOBODY in the truth movement believes) source.

So, again, tell me....HOW are you going to have an "independant" investigation that the "truth" movement will accept?


[edit on 3-12-2009 by Swampfox46_1999]

Originally posted by unicorn1
It's my experience that some people are too ready to jump on anyone who doesn't echo the conspiracy de jour. I suppose extreme paranoia is a given on sites like this. I wonder if some of those who are so quick to cry accusations of 'paid shill', 'professional debunker' etc, ever consider the origin of some of the die hard conspiracy theorists? I guess the answer is not often, because if you have a closed mind, there is only one side of the fence to be on.

Actually, we do wonder about the origin of CT's. The promoters of the no-plane theroy, the space beam theroy, the missle pod theory...John Lear. We know it cuts both ways. There, are pro CT's and pro debunker's.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
On numerous occasions, posts have been made that are literally hundreds of objects in a building that will explode during a fire, chemicals, oxygen tanks in first aid rooms, almost any pressurized can (air freshener, Pledge, etc) will explode in the face of intense heat/flame. In addition, a steel I Beam giving way under stress makes a loud boom too. Does not mean that loud boom, was a bomb.

A few things you have yet to learn, Swampfox. This is the information you completely ignore every time you post this kind of garbage. So pay attention to it and think clearly for a moment.

1) You still don't know what exactly was causing those explosions even if you DO think you have alternatives to bombs. It still could have been bombs anyway. The fact that YOU DON'T KNOW should drive you towards better understanding by reviewing more information.

2) There is testimony to those explosions doing more than making loud noises. Like destroying 300-lb steel and concrete doors, damaging the lobby, blowing out elevator banks, causing more damage in the basements. Aerosol cans and even snapping beams don't do that, so we can make a lot of eliminations in cases like this.

3) Most of the reported explosions were coming from the complete opposite part of the building from where the planes hit.

4) There was only 1 elevator that could have possibly plummeted from the impact sites to the basements, and it only reached to level B1. Also no explosive/destructive overpressure is possibly going to travel down drywall shafts without damaging those same shafts as well beforehand. That is how overpressures REALLY work, not like a Bugs Bunny cartoon.

Of course, that does not stop the truth movement from taking first responder statements out of context, or misquoting, or flat out lying about the the responder was talking about.

You have no evidence that we are doing any such thing. There are still police officers and firefighters that completely agree with us. There is no way we are taking what they say out of context.

[edit on 3-12-2009 by bsbray11]

reply to post by bsbray11

1) You still don't know what exactly was causing those explosions even if you DO think you have alternatives to bombs. It still could have been bombs anyway. The fact that YOU DON'T KNOW should drive you towards better understanding by reviewing more information.

Lets see, no evidence of explosives were found by law enforcement agencies...hmmm.......

There was only 1 elevator that could have possibly plummeted from the impact sites to the basements, and it only reached to level B1.

Car #6: B1-5, 44, 75, 77-107
Car #17: B1-1, 41, 43-78
Car #49: B1-5, 41-74
Car #50: B6-108

Get back to me when you actually know what you are talking about.

[edit on 3-12-2009 by Swampfox46_1999]

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999

1) You still don't know what exactly was causing those explosions even if you DO think you have alternatives to bombs. It still could have been bombs anyway. The fact that YOU DON'T KNOW should drive you towards better understanding by reviewing more information.

Lets see, no evidence of explosives were found by law enforcement agencies...hmmm.......

Let's see, no evidence of exploding electrical generators or aerosol cans blowing massive doors up either.... HMMMMMM......

There was only 1 elevator that could have possibly plummeted from the impact sites to the basements, and it only reached to level B1.

Car #6: B1-5, 44, 75, 77-107
Car #17: B1-1, 41, 43-78
Car #49: B1-5, 41-74
Car #50: B6-108

Thanks for validating what I just said.

Car 50 is the main freight. WTC1 had the most reports of basement explosions as it was hit first. Its operators name was Arturo Griffin, he survived, his car did not descend all the way into the basements, nor was there are a fireball. None of the rest of those serviced the impacted floors AND the basement levels.

Get back to me when you actually know what you are talking about

Why don't YOU get back to me when you can READ?

reply to post by bsbray11


Car 6...B5 to floor 107...pretty much covers the entire building. Just because an elevator doesnt hit every floor, does not mean the shaft it is in doesnt.

[edit on 3-12-2009 by Swampfox46_1999]