77 = No Hijack, Flight Deck Door Closed for Entire Flight

This is one more straw on the proverbial camel's back.

So much about this day makes no sense. Too many coincidences had to happen to make 9-11 possible.

Guys who are allegedly guilty rehearsed for this by flying Cessnas....and then were able to fly 757s / 767s like pros?! No, I have always thought remote control.

Poor camel, his back is bound to break sooner or later.

Originally posted by Aircow
Poor camel, his back is bound to break sooner or later.

Well, this one won't do it. The FLT DECK OPEN parameter was not added to the FDR frame (757-3 A2) until 1997. The plane was manufactured in 1991 using an earler frame structure which did not include the parameter, so a binary 0 for an unused data block.

One word comes to mind: Retrofit.

Originally posted by mikelee
One word comes to mind: Retrofit.

And your evidence for that is? In 42 hours of recorded flights (11 + the ill-fated one), NOT one time did an OPEN register. Sorry, you'll need to produce some evidence of an upgrade. Rewiring a plane is very expensive and time-consuming, so a record of a 757 recall should be easy to find.

Originally posted by 911files

Originally posted by mikelee
One word comes to mind: Retrofit.

And your evidence for that is? In 42 hours of recorded flights (11 + the ill-fated one), NOT one time did an OPEN register. Sorry, you'll need to produce some evidence of an upgrade. Rewiring a plane is very expensive and time-consuming, so a record of a 757 recall should be easy to find.

I realize that the FDR on the ill fated flight didn't record any openings. I'm suggesting that it COULD have been done, possibly faulty during a retrofit. Thats all. Based on the "official story" that the terrorists did breech the cockpit door, and if any retrofits did happen then that would obviously be reason to suspect a malfunction. Also, the cock pit door isn't the same door as the flight level / deck door that is recorded in the FDR. One last thing, when the aircraft is being boarded by passengers including crew, the door is opened & closed many times to the cock pit as well as other doors. The FDR would record this too even while it is on the ground as the plane is "initialized" for flight. If no door was recored during this time as "open" then a malfunction was indeed present. A recall would not be the right term, it would be an order for change to proprietary electronic recording & flight data instrumentation whihc isn't always "easy to find" due to the fact that these orders for reconstruct do not always impact the direct flight ability of the aircraft.

[edit on 28-11-2009 by mikelee]

[edit on 28-11-2009 by mikelee]

Originally posted by mikelee
Also, the cock pit door isn't the same door as the flight level / deck door that is recorded in the FDR.

That I cannot address (I'm a data guy). All I can speak to is the data at hand and my experience working with Warren and his code. His code just pulls the WORDs stored at specific locations in the file. To determine what they mean, a frame layout is needed. These are revised over time, so to insure you are getting the right 'interpertation' of the data, you must insure you are using the proper frame layout. Warren used the 757-3 A2 frame, but the data was stored with an earlier frame layout (most likely 757-2). All it means is that the binary 0 is a default 'placeholder', not an actual data value.

[edit on 28-11-2009 by 911files]

Originally posted by 911files

Originally posted by mikelee
Also, the cock pit door isn't the same door as the flight level / deck door that is recorded in the FDR.

That I cannot address (I'm a data guy). All I can speak to is the data at hand and my experience working with Warren and his code. His code just pulls the WORDs stored at specific locations in the file. To determine what they mean, a frame layout is needed. These are revised over time, so to insure you are getting the right 'interpertation' of the data, you must insure you are using the proper frame layout. Warren used the 757-3 A2 frame, but the data was stored with an earlier frame layout (most likely 757-2). All it means is that the binary 0 is a default 'placeholder', not an actual data value.

[edit on 28-11-2009 by 911files]

Right. I understand what your saying, no problem there friend. But in my earlier post in this thread a friend of the family flys for AA and he told me the cock pit doors and the flight level (deck doors) are two totally different values in the FDR. Thats all.

Sorry to butt in mid thread,
But the system COSMOS springs to mind the mainframe computer.
I have a working knowledge of this system, and it records all door interlock activity,
If isolated it would need a manual override (hence a seal being broken a safety critical issue) because of the redundancy safety features, to actually take control of the vehicle.
If ISOd surly there would be an entry in the vehicle defects log book, (usually triplicate)
One for maintenance/warranty issues, one for the operator and one for Fleet records,
Just my 2 bobs worth,.........

Originally posted by mikelee
Right. I understand what your saying, no problem there friend. But in my earlier post in this thread a friend of the family flys for AA and he told me the cock pit doors and the flight level (deck doors) are two totally different values in the FDR. Thats all.

Yeah, I read that earlier among the ramblings about how this is some kind of 'smoking gun'. Why anyone listens to the junk coming out of P4T anymore is beyond me.

Originally posted by 911files

Originally posted by mikelee
Right. I understand what your saying, no problem there friend. But in my earlier post in this thread a friend of the family flys for AA and he told me the cock pit doors and the flight level (deck doors) are two totally different values in the FDR. Thats all.

Yeah, I read that earlier among the ramblings about how this is some kind of 'smoking gun'. Why anyone listens to the junk coming out of P4T anymore is beyond me.

I know. I don't think its the smoking gun at all. But it is interesting though in the same context of "how'd that fly get in here?". LOL

[edit on 28-11-2009 by mikelee]

A couple of points.

1. Those who claim there are 11 other flights of the door condition closed have not provided any proof of their claim.

2. The claimed data for the "11 other flights" has not been verified by the data provided by the NTSB as was the flight mentioned in the original post. The "11 other flights" data will truly be exclusively from some guy in Australia, if ever provided. This data is unconfirmed and has never been verified. If ever verified, the data sensing door closed position does not mean default. See Turbofans post on previous page.

3. Date of aircraft vs date of regulation. Aircraft go through many changes over their lifetime to upgrade/update with regulation changes. They are inspected through what is called A, B, C, and D checks. The D check practically pulls the entire aircraft apart for inspection. If the regulation was required in 1997 for the FLT DECK DOOR parameter, it would be upgraded during the next inspection. The FLT DECK DOOR sensor and recording was required equipment on Sept 11, 2001 for the 757.

4. The sensor records either logic 0 (closed) or logic 1 (open). Those who claim logic 0 is a default value are wrong. Again, Turbofan explained this well in his diagrams.

Don't let keyboard commandos who have an extreme bias for the govt story cloud the issue (as is most likely their intention as this issue is very damaging to the govt story). Demand verified evidence for their claims.

Originally posted by R_Mackey
Don't let keyboard commandos who have an extreme bias for the govt story cloud the issue (as is most likely their intention as this issue is very damaging to the govt story). Demand verified evidence for their claims.

Oh Rob, go over to the Warren RO thread, it is all right there. Everyone reading this can go to Warren's page and run the software for all 12 flights. Noone should take mine or your word for it. Run the data and then show me one case of the door being open in 42 hours of flight. You can't, because that WORD is not recording anything.

reply to post by 911files

A link would be nice 911, thanks
Surly the "WORD" would have recorded the system malfunction ? or could the system have been ISOd at the last maintenance period, By a technician/engineer, there would be a paper trail presumably..

Originally posted by foxhoundone
reply to post by 911files

 

A link would be nice 911, thanks
Surly the "WORD" would have recorded the system malfunction ? or could the system have been ISOd at the last maintenance period, By a technician/engineer, there would be a paper trail presumably..

No malfunction to record. ATS thread on the "New FDR Decode", all links you need are in the posts there.

Warren's Decode Page

[edit on 28-11-2009 by 911files]

reply to post by 911files

The system i call COSMOS is very similar to one you describe, It records all doors external and internal including the toilets, Not to mention the comms, Pis Pas Pa which is linked to the mainframe system It is a built in redundancy and would be classed as safety critical and logged in the planes log book (to cover the pilots ass) presumably ??
Or sorry did i misread and skip something (Apollz) ...
FDR, COSMOS
similar system Cosmos is digital and is very modern and uploads downloads automatically to main base computer...



[edit on 28-11-2009 by foxhoundone]

Originally posted by abefrohman
Come on guys.

Everyone seems to agree that the plane didn't hit the Pentagon... and the Government is covering it up.

Yet somehow you all think it's reasonable to trust data released by the government from a data recorder from the plane?

If the data the govt. releases supporting the terrorist explanation is not valid, then the data they release supporting anything else is not valid.

I'll listen to anything in the way of eyewitness testimony and physical evidence that refutes the terrorist story... but when we start using information that was released by the same people who are lying to us just because it supports what we want to believe... that's when I get off the bus.

Look at it this way.

If it was a helicopter... the data is fake.
If it was a missile... the data is fake.
If the flight was unmanned... the data is fake.

Only if the flight was hijacked does it make any sense to trust any of this data, and it seems to me that nobody here thinks it was a hijacking.

[edit on 27-11-2009 by abefrohman]

I dont belive it was a helicopter
nor a missile

the plane was remote controlled IMO.
the rest is lies.

[edit on 28-11-2009 by anti72]

Originally posted by cdesignmaster
Flight Deck Recorders were only good for 30 minutes back in 2001, now they're good for 2 hours.

Sorry c, that is misinformation. The FDR ,which stands for Flight Data Recorder and not Flight Deck Recorder, records from up to 18 to 25 hours. The Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) recorded for 30 minutes in 2001. Bottom line is the data from the NTSB shows the cockpit level door was never opened for 4 seconds or more at any time during the flight, if that parameter was recorded in 2001..

[edit on 28-11-2009 by 4nsicphd]

Originally posted by 911files

Originally posted by fleabit
Flight attendants typically check in on pilots every 30 minutes or so, to make sure all is ok, and see if they need or want anything. Are we to believe that they made no checks at all?

You mght want to check the post on the Warren Decode thead. There are 42 hours of data and EVERY record of this parameter (one every 4 seconds) is CLOSED. Not even one OPEN value, even for the other 11 recorded flights, including the LA to DC flights. So, there is no evidence that this parameter was recorded at all and the default value of CLOSED is what we are seeing. Check with Warren and see if the raw value is 0. If so, then we are just seeing the default.

Please link to what you are talking about. Because the FAQ on the pilots website clearly says this:
"Claim - Does the cockpit door show open for the pilots to get in?
A. No, it shows closed for entire flight. The FDR starts recording when the engines are started. Clearly the pilots would be in their seats and cabin/flight deck secure during this phase of flight."

OP contains the link to that page, so I won't re-link to the forum.

While you did just link to this page:
www.warrenstutt.com...
That says nothing about there being a 25 hours worth of data recorded.

[edit on 28-11-2009 by truthquest]

By the way the doc looks, the alarm system must be "poled" at intervals and the resulting answer recorded.

Not trying to bust you up but...where did the info come from? I have a difficult time believing this is from the feds. Who knows though, right?

The veracity of the docs are questionable bro. sorry.