Introducing: Millitary Free America!!

reply to post by network dude


mate seriously.. this kids have no role models, no wil, and no originality. THe hippies did the same things in the 60's. these little morons want a movement.. the only thing I agree with them on is Emo is NOT the way. lol. Besides, the youth of today is an androgenous lot of worthless idiots that will soon be dropping like flies. remember that one week in your life as a lad when anarchy was cool, then you thnk about it and realise you would be the first to die?... yea same thing but a lot dumber, and for more than a week.

Originally posted by nethawk
America is the light of the world

America is the blight of the world

There, ffixed it for you.

reply to post by Uniceft17


Okay here are the oaths, so everyone understands them.

In the Armed Forces EXCEPT the National Guard (Army or Air)

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

In the National Guard (Army or Air)

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States and the State of (STATE NAME) against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the Governor of (STATE NAME) and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to law and regulations. So help me God.


Notice the qualifier on obeying the orders of the President: "according to law and regulations." My interpretation still stands, the oath is first to the Constitution and second to the President and Officers -- according to law and regulations. If the law and regulations are unconstitutional there is no oath to obey those orders even if they come from the President.


[CASE] 16 Am Jur 2d, Sec 177, late 2d, Sec 256 (?): "The general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and name of law, is in reality no law, but is wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose; since unconstitutionality dates from the time of it's enactment, and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it."

reply to post by crimvelvet


OK, I get it. But...isn't the Supreme Court where it is decided if a law is constitutional or not? If each of us makes the decision for him/herself would not that result in chaos, anarchy?

We do have ways in the United States of America to make changes. Because we have a republic, the majority may not agree with our personal truths. Why not do it within the established system instead of demanding the soldier in the field make it easier for us?

Mahree

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Those who feel that way simply don't bother signing up. Unlike many EU countries, US military service is not compulsory.

Talk about the lack of freedom of choice.

Whats wrong with mandatory training? I have yet to meet one who did not find use in survival training or one person who did not benefit from the exercise! One of my friends was fat until service!!

Its only mandatory as a home defence, which it SHOULD be anyway, if we get invaded everyone would NEED to any ways!

All ours over in A-stan are VOLUNTARY or FSK and HJK, just because we have to be in the military does not mean its a lack of freedom of choice. Thats to me like saying 'you pay taxes so you dont have freedom of choice in your country'.

reply to post by Prove_It_NOW


Awesome post! Or whatever big word you yanks wanna put on it!

I posted this on one thread I don't mind posting it on this one as well. The soldiers can think on there own and are not robots. We all enlist exactly because we love our country and think we are doing something great. Not for any kind of attention from anyone just because it's our choice and are willing to stand up for what's right. These are the creeds we go by.

The army is just a regular job like a civilian job after the training. Not that hard. However after some realize it is or isn't an unjust war we have no choice in getting out or not unless we want to go to jail.

You have to respect the ranks in the military, but rank does not make you smarter or any better. It's the character and the leadership that individual has behind the rank. Some are scared of rank and other aren't. Some are just nervous around rank, and some aren't.

I am an American Soldier.

I am a Warrior and a member of a team. I serve the people of the United States and live the Army Values.

I will always place the mission first.

I will never accept defeat.

I will never quit.

I will never leave a fallen comrade.

I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in my warrior tasks and drills. I always maintain my arms, my equipment and myself.

I am an expert and I am a professional.

I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy the enemies of the United States of America in close combat.

I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life.

I am an American Soldier.


Loyalty
Bear true faith and allegiance to the U.S. constitution, the Army, and other soldiers.
Be loyal to the nation and its heritage.

Duty
Fulfill your obligations.
Accept responsibility for your own actions and those entrusted to your care.
Find opportunities to improve oneself for the good of the group.

Respect
Rely upon the golden rule.
How we consider others reflects upon each of us, both personally and as a professional organization.

Selfless Service
Put the welfare of the nation, the Army, and your subordinates before your own.
Selfless service leads to organizational teamwork and encompasses discipline, self-control and faith in the system.

Honor
Live up to all the Army values

Integrity
Do what is right, legally and morally.
Be willing to do what is right even when no one is looking.
It is our "moral compass" an inner voice.

Personal Courage
Our ability to face fear, danger, or adversity, both physical and moral courage.

This is what every soldier is taught and trained.

Sometimes as a soldier you encounter "# bag" officers that are only in it for the pay raise or themselves and sergeants who are the same that don't care about other soldiers. But there are a lot of great Sergeants and Officers who stand up for the soldiers below them as well as their country and civilians
and even question unethical orders. Creed of the Noncommissioned Officer:

No one is more professional than I. I am a Noncommissioned Officer, a leader of soldiers. As a Noncommissioned Officer, I realize that I am a member of a time honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of the Army". I am proud of the Corps of Noncommissioned Officers and will at all times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the Military Service and my country regardless of the situation in which I find myself. I will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or personal safety.

Competence is my watchword. My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind -- accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my soldiers. I will strive to remain tactically and technically proficient. I am aware of my role as a Noncommissioned Officer. I will fulfill my responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership; I will provide that leadership. I know my soldiers and I will always place their needs above my own. I will communicate consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I will be fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.

Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties; they will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and confidence as well as that of my soldiers. I will be loyal to those with whom I serve; seniors, peers, and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative by taking appropriate action in the absence of orders. I will not compromise my integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I allow my comrades to forget that we are professionals, Noncommissioned Officers, leaders!

I mean why sit around and think whether the war is unjust or not when you can enlist and voice your opinion and help? Everyone here that is complaining isn't or hasn't been enlisted in the Armed Forces Of America to voice there opinion and hasn't been in a soldiers shoes. Now don't take that statement out of proportion or the wrong way.

No disrespect or anything. But soldiers work hard every day and go through a lot for wanting to do right for there country. We put up with sometimes silly rules and regulations. Each Unit has different ones as well.

Sometimes depending on where you are your freedoms can be taken away and have non like civilians do depending on your commander. If one soldier gets in trouble on the weekend for underage drinking or fighting the company and unit can all get called back in after hours and stand in a long formation waiting for everyone to come back on post just because of that one soldier.

Sometimes we do get treated like children and sometimes its for a good cause, and sometimes its for a #ty cause and it can all be from one soldier or incident.

reply to post by jca2005


Thank you for your service and for explaining a soldier's duties and responsibilities.

I am reminded that all of our Armed Services are made up of men and women like yourself. You are not robots or monsters, you are men and women of America, our neighbors, sons, daughters, mothers and fathers.

Mahree

reply to post by Mahree

OK, I get it. But...isn't the Supreme Court where it is decided if a law is constitutional or not? If each of us makes the decision for him/herself would not that result in chaos, anarchy?

Actually there are three ways
The first of course is the Supreme Court.

The second is "STATE NULLIFICATION" That is what happened to RFID's in drivers licenses.

The Third is the Jury. The primary function of a Juror is to protect fellow citizens from abuses by the government. Jurors have the power to consider whether the law itself is wrong (including whether it is "unconstitutional"), or is being applied for political reasons.


The Oath to the Constitution and the limitations on the powers of the President and the Officers are there for a very good reason. If an order is very obviously against the Constitution and harmful to the American people, a Solder, especially an Officers, is given the right to Act in accordance to the Constitution.

For Example:
A president decides he wants to get rid of all the guns in the USA. He uses an EX order to make private ownership of guns illegal, declare Martial Law and orders the US military to do a house by house search and to Fire upon any and all civilians who resist.

( Note: At the time the US of A is not engaged in any declared wars)

Is this Constitutional?? Should the military blindly follow these orders??? Is this an actual overthrow of the Constitutional government of the US of A??



The founders of the US left an out for military Officers who refuse these type of orders. And I for one am very thankful for it.

Originally posted by mr. toddly

Originally posted by eikmun

You are not cannon fodder. you know how much money goes into training a soldier and protecting him? You know how much we invest in body armor, and medical aid for soldiers?

This is not the 19th century. A well trained tank crew is worth more than the tank. special forces cost one million to train each. Far from cannon fodder.

Your part about corporations isn't true anymore. The worlds average GDP has risen around the world because of the US and trade. Your wrong.

Eikmun, I sense we will probably have to agree to disagree, but I appreciate your effort to enlighten.

Just because the cannon fodder is expensive doesn't make it any less cannon fodder. It's not as though the military has to stay within budget, they get all the money they ask for. The more they spend, the more the war profiteers make. So money or cost is no reason to protect our soldiers. War is all about making money, not about protecting America, defending freedom, or spreading democracy. If our generals really cared about protecting our soldiers, then they wouldn't manufacture phony wars for them to fight and die in, and when they did send them into battle they'd be provided with the proper body armor --unlike what happened in Iraq. Bake sales to buy body armor for your kid fighting in Iraq? Pathetic.

Sure, many soldiers join the military believing that it is an honorable and noble institution, but it is not. Don't believe me? I suggest you read "War Is a Racket" by General Smedly Butler. And what do you think Gen. Eisenhower was talking about in his presidential farewell address when he warned us against the military industrial complex? He talked at length about the true costs of war, and he made it clear that wars were being fought not based on need but based on greed.

Also, if you believe that nations around the globe have been lifted out of poverty because of the policies and trade with the United States, then you've been drinking the global elite raspberry-flavored kool-aid. Yes, China's economy is now growing due to its export economy, and India is doing well in the IT field, etc, etc. But for you to ignore the decades of US efforts to deliberately keep much of the world impoverished and forever in debt, then you haven't researched the topic very far. I suggest you google globalizationresearch and educate yourself about the true economic policies the US has been pursuing around the world. For instance, did you know that since the US forced (through lawsuits) India to accept genetically engineered strains of basmati rice, that tens of thousands of Indian farmers have committed suicide rather than starve to death. Turns out impoverished farmers can't afford to compete with Monsanto, and can't afford to stay in the business their families have had for hundreds of years. Sad.

I know of everything you've mentioned. I've read a lot about it. I want to read pentagons new map. It might be the opposite of what you believe, i find i'm in the middle on globalization.

Originally posted by gnosis111
reply to post by shrike071

 

I agree with the op somewhat, but saying 99.999% join for that reason is ridiculous. Most of them join because they can't find jobs and hope a war doesn't break out so they can get their GI Bill. And I add that I don't think there is anything wrong with that, but don't OVER sensationalize these people.

The military is a great place to learn and get the experience necessary to compete in the civilian world. Certain training can only be received through the military. What the hell is wrong with serving your country and getting a college education in exchange for your service. Such greed!!

I agree we need military only because that is the world we live in. But to call a soldier a hero just for doing what he is told without thinking for himself is ludicrous. It's like saying I am a hero for paying a speeding ticket.

You're joking right?

In 1968-69, I was an Army Crew Chief (MOS 67N20) on a UH-1D Huey and as we flew into many hot LZ's, the last thing I was thinking about was being a hero. Completing the mission, as quickly as possible, was all I was thinking about. I never thought I was a hero of any kind. Just doing my job, trying to stay alive so I could go home and again be with family and friends.

And then there was the three months I spent with a Medevac unit......... You don't want to go there in this discussion!!!

Heroes were the dead and wounded troopers loaded, under heavy fire, on our choppers. Many died enroute to a medivac facility. So do me a favor and watch what you say about who and who are not heroes. Some died right before my eyes as their wounds were so severe, little could be done but to try and comfort them. The other HEROES were the medics, nurses, and doctors waiting to treat the wounded we managed to extract.

I wonder what your opinion today might be having sat in my "seat", M-60 in hand, and AK rounds peppering "your" aircraft, RPG's going off all around us, trying to get everyone on board and praying to God your pilot can get the aircraft off the ground, no matter what. We did this many times a day. We left no one behind. But we were no heroes

It's a view from a different perspective. A bit different than being keyboard puncher.

Thinking for yourself does not fit in with the rationale of the military. The only thing ludicrous is your uneducated opinion.

Lets not forget these men and women choose to join and know full well they could die, but it is NOT for their country it is for their government, and they have the obligation to find out and know the damn difference!

When a trooper dies, he dies for his fellow soldiers, his family, for the American people, AND FOR HIS COUNTRY!!!!!

I do not agree with soldier bashing, but they have a duty to this country and to the constitution to question what their leaders are ordering of them. And what has been ordered of them for the past 4 decades or longer is treason.

That shows you how much you know. We were/are just following lawful military orders, covering our buddies backs, and staying alive - just doing their duty so we can come home. Question the authority of an officer????? The brig is always just one smart @%$ comment away.

But again it is not wholly their fault, it is ours, ours for not voting, challenging, and proactively opposing our governments shoddy and treasonous leadership.

On this point I agree with you.

I admit I can barely stomach our government, but I would be a hypocrite to say it is their fault, it's not, it is the American peoples fault. And witty little chain emails and pointless protests will not change anything. What are we going to do? What are you going to do?

You know where you can put that comment!! Same with the word hypocrite!! The government is the problem and if you do not know it by now, its way too late. The governments been running wild since before JFK was assassinated. A fact the entire country is just now waking up to.

Appreciate our military. The military is the only thing standing between a politicians shoe and the top of your head. Don't forget it. (Smedley Butler)

My 3 years in the US Army was one of the best "choices" I have made in my life. I don't regret it one bit, but wouldn't want to go through it again.

I did mine, what are YOU going to do?

Originally posted by WhiteDevil013
reply to post by network dude

 

Another thing;

This current situation in the middle East isnt even a real "war"

Its policing, mixed with humanitarian work (handing out water and candy bars)

Im sorry but in a real "war" you dont go door to door and ask "are there any bad guys in there?" Like the people who live there will really even rat out their neighbors anyways, especially when most of them have lived there for hundreds of years, their families are closely intertwined. I believe people view us as "soft" over there because of the way we do things.

If we were really at war, we would roll into a village and say "You guys have 30 seconds to give us all your Taliban, Al Queda etc." if they didnt, you call in an air strike and wipe that village off the face of the earth. Then guess what? the next village you roll into, people will be soooo happy to give up the insurgents they're hiding.

You clearly know nothing of counter-insurgency.

I removed my last comment after consideration of others feelings. It's a PC Army afterall.

[edit on 15-11-2009 by US_Centurion]

Originally posted by Prove_It_NOW

Originally posted by StargateSG7
Who needs soldiers anymore - They're obsolete !!!

Iraq and Afghanistan are the first combat zones to see heavy fighting
and killing by autonomous machines! These are also the first wars
where support and repair personnel outnumber the combat personnel.

In my own family, my brother is in Canadian Forces Combat Engineering,
and was recently posted in Afghanistan in the fighting zones, mostly fixing
YOUR machines...Bradley's, Strykers, Cougars, 2-6 tonne trucks, etc....
which is a byproduct of Canada/USA cooperation.

You Supply It - We fix it for you when you break it!

And most people (sheeple?) in the USA simply don't understand
that there is a basic truth in that the strong tend to bully or conquer
the weak...they also lack the understanding that is it better to BE STRONG than weak...thus I AM REALLY, REALLY GREATFUL that we (USA-CANADA)
have one a hell of a fighting & killing machine in our armed forces and
are thus considered worldwide as being one of the TRULY STRONG PARTS
of the world.

It wouldn't be any fun to have a bunch of invading Russians, Chinese,
Mid-east Polyglot Soldiers thinking that since we`re sitting on a bunch
of VALUABLE STUFF and LAND, that maybe they'll just TAKE IT without asking!

Ergo, to prevent that sort of scenario we need to be STRONG MILITARILY
and keep it that way...and YOU need to get with the program of being
strong in every way possible on a personal basis in case we one day
need to DEFEND those freedoms and that space that we call home!!!

In my own personal case, I have running in my basement, a machine
I designed and built, that can scan 6 full 1920 by 1080 pixel 24 bit RGB,
ultra high speed HDTV streams at over 2000 frames per second
(YES! THAT'S TWO THOUSAND FPS!) and AUTODETECT and TRACK
over 1000+ objects simultaneously using simple video game
technology...and if I hook that thing up to say a 6000 rounds per minute
Gatling gun or better yet, a Million Rounds per Minute MetalStorm Gun,
it will KILL EVERYTHING it finds....completely automatically,
NO HUMANS NEEDED - PERIOD !!!!

Ergo, I can also make many THOUSANDS if not MILLIONS of copies of that
smart software in a few hours....Ergo, for the foreseeable future,
Canada and the USA will be safe from invasion by the Barbarian Hordes.

I'm doing my part because I personally KNOW how dangerous an
armed and powerful foe can be if left unchecked...in our case I say
speak softly and carry a VERY,VERY BIG STICK !!!!!!!!!!!!

Unfortunately, there WILL BE another Hitler somewhere out there,
with the great unwashed, mindless masses who'll follow him/her,
and the rest of us will have to pay for it with grueling hard work
and/or our lives in the face of almost insurmounstable strength
and power...thus I believe we can no longer afford to fight a war
with slow, uncritical humans...soon it'll have to be vast armies of
Terminators and Cylons doing all the dirty work and hopefully
we'll be first out the gate that that bit of High Tech!

I'm doing my part...What are YOU doing to protect our soft derriere's
from the eventual try at invasion and/or annihilation of our homeland?!?!?!

[edit on 2009/11/13 by StargateSG7]

Just to be absolutely clear here. That was satire right? Because if it wasn't, you're a sociopath.

Actually...it WAS mostly satire....but many people really
just don't get it on a deep, deep level so I added a few hints to
ensure you (they?) are getting the point....!!!

However, I can see I've failed to elucidate that my intentions
are MOSTLY PEACEFUL (except for the occasional halloween
blowup fest) so I must point out that I am trying to indicate
that we have a 500 billion dollar military that has the know how
and DESIRE to rid itself of bothersome self-thinking human
soldiers and change itself into an almost fully automated killing
fest of autonomous machines which I personally think are not
only dangerous to the enemy but to the civilian population
which is in danger of become subsumed to a grand imperial
army of Terminators and Cylons controlled by an unelected
few at our ruinous expense and for detrimental purposes.

---
On the technical part of my post I actually DO have a super-high
speed, autonomous motion tracking 2000 fps HDTV camera system
that COULD QUITE EASILY be hooked up to some really horrendous
killing machines and IT DOES ACTUALLY FIND & TRACK THINGS REALLY FAST using Common-Off-the-Shelf Videogame Technology
in new ways...I hope it doesn't get used for that, but the fact
that I can take a bunch of video game chips (Sony PS3 Cell
Processors and ATI/Geforce fixed point GPU's) to do all the legwork
rather quickly and effectively was quite shocking to me.

It was designed for scientific motion analysis, but in my original
post, I wanted to show a bit of SARCASM and SATIRE so I worded
my post in a gung ho, super-patriot manner to showcase
the foolhardy nature of trying to let machines take over our
lives in an excessive manner....sadly, it seems my words
were taken quite seriously and matter-of-factly!

OH WELL...that the satire and sarcasm was not seen, should also
be a biting indictment of our basic education system --- but that's
'nother story altogether!
---
Anyways THINK ABOUT the point of this thread where it SHOULD
be obvious that invasion by foreign forces would be pointless
and fruitless becuase of the horrific turn of events that WOULD
take place if such a scenario were to take place. It would
escalate and become a Nuclear Armageddon where neither
side would obtain any strategic advantage or goal. It would
end in fields of glowing radioactive ash and glass.

My suggestion would be to let simple economics do the fighting
and let the "warring" parties see which "culture" becomes
dominant by the merits of its ability to provide the
necessities and niceties of a comfortable modern lifestyle.
The system that is MOST ABLE to provide such widespread
effects to the general population should be the one that survives.
And so far Western Financial Accumulation and
Aggregation has been rather effective. In China's case
they're mixing it up with Leninist socialism to see if
they can't do us one better for the Billion+ people they
have to take care of daily --- Which we don't have to face
on a practical basis!

[edit on 2009/11/16 by StargateSG7]

And as an addition to my previous post, this thread has taken the
turn of displaying an unnecessary bellicosity and bravado of:

"Who's More Loyal and Brave than Me?"

Again, the point of this thread should be to illustrate the
folly of letting politicians fight wars, and showcase the folly
of generals partaking in politics. The twain shouldn't meet
because if they do all you get is W-A-R !!!

America is WITHOUT DOUBT A STRONG NATION simply because
of our economic and military might which was built up over
many generations. I do want to point out that like in war,
readiness, strength and fighting ability can DETERIORATE
literally overnight without the general will of the populace
to engage in and partake in the physical( i.e. machinery &
personnel), emotional (i.e. public & political mood) and the
timely (i.e. continuous) upkeep of personal and group-based
protective measures that showcase to 3rd parties that we
WILL DEFEND our way of life. History has ample examples of
powerful empires that have crumbled due to indifference,
laziness and internal division which leaves them (US?) open
to direct challenge and overthrow by external parties
who could walk right in if we're asleep at the wheel and
impose a life we don't want upon us.

--- The Price of Peace is Eternal Vigilance! ---

We should keep that saying at our bedsides
because it's SO VERY TRUE and too many of us
not only don't realize it, but don't really CARE to!
And that bodes ill for our maintaining our "culture"
and current way of life, which I happen to like
just the way it is now !!!

And until we can ALL get off this rock into the farthest reaches
of wide open space, we're gonna have to keep jockeying for
living space and personal freedoms because there'll ALWAYS
be some nutcases who want to pour some burning oil on a
creaky, overbuilt Rome just see if it'll burn to the ground!

So in my personal opinion, the USA (and many other 1st world
countries) will have to keep up their eternal vigilance because
THERE ARE some nutty people who want to see Rome (i.e. US)
burn to the ground just for the spectacle of it -- killing millions
if not BILLIONS in the process -- I'd rather NOT have that
happen, so I am grateful to the USA and other forces whose
job it is to protect OUR WAY OF LIFE AS IT STANDS TODAY!

And I want to point out that IF you like the personal ideal that
America represents today, then it is YOUR responsibility to make
sure that you have the means and ability to DEFEND that ideal,
which may include taking up arms against enemies both
foreign and domestic.

Aaaaahhhhh --- the irony of having a CANADIAN making that
point clear to the average AMERICAN !!!!!

It is strange days indeed!


Any Comments?




[edit on 2009/11/16 by StargateSG7]

Originally posted by StargateSG7
And as an addition to my previous post, this thread has taken the
turn of displaying an unnecessary bellicosity and bravado of:

"Who's More Loyal and Brave than Me?"

Again, the point of this thread should be to illustrate the
folly of letting politicians fight wars, and showcase the folly
of generals partaking in politics. The twain shouldn't meet
because if they do all you get is W-A-R !!!

no, actually the point of this thread is that if America had no military it wouldn't be the country it is today. Neither would Canada, or Mexico. Having a mechanized army is a bad idea indeed. Nobody want's to have to call Arnold to save them. But the soldiers on the armed forces serve a very real need to our country.

Originally posted by Kailassa
America is the blight of the world

There, ffixed it for you.

If you want to fix it for yourself, better learn how to say it in Chinese, "mate." If we can't get our government back under American control, your whole country will be a Chinese owned colony by the end of the century.

Or if you want to go back in time and remove the influence of the US on your native OZ, you could learn to say it in Japanese. Yeah what a horrible blight we've been to the Aussies.

If America is so horrible to you, then why don't you throw away your "beloved flying-v" and play a billabong instead? Or are you a hypocritical idiot with the mind of a child?

[edit on 16-11-2009 by 11andrew34]

To get on a somewhat different stream,
Canada, USA et al... are as we are today because of sacrifices
made many years and generations ago that has brought us to
to a level that on the whole is far better than living in caves
and riding donkeys like the current bunch of Afghani Mujihadeen
constrained by their cultural ties and base tribalism.

This will sound arrogant and prideful but The Truth is The Truth !!!
We are the First World BECAUSE we have mostly transcended
tribalism and religious tomfoolery into group cooperation
and the embrace of social, financial and technological
sophistication.

They're living in caves (and trust they ARE living in CAVES!)
in Afghanistan because of a general lack of public motivation
and imagination to go beyond what is today.

It's Simple Myopia (Short-Sightedness) with regards to accepting
and embracing CHANGE in social mores, group cooperation
and advancement in technology.

And to put it blatantly, they're BACKWARDS and will STAY THAT WAY
until they LEARN to accept change! My biggest beef is WHY ARE
WE (the First World) even BOTHERING to deal with them in the
manner we are today.

As a Canadian and a fairly pro-military Libertarian,
I ABSOLUTELY CRINGE at the hubris of us thinking that
we could use sporadic application of general military forces
to effect massive cultural change on a society that requires
smaller, more focused steps to bring it into the 21st century.

How the hell are we to expect them to accept general elections,
massive industrialism/industrialization when the basics haven't
been introduced yet....like a network of passable roads, clean
drinking water, portable electricity and even the concept
of a basic flushable toilet and toilet paper which 90% of the
Afghani public has never seen much yet ever USED!

By trying to use MASSIVE FORCE to ensure security you're only
making the country more insecure when a tight, highly focused
covert military force could be used to REMOVE the individuals
and groups that stand in the way of Afghani societal progress.
You don't have to kill them, just REMOVE them physically
from the basic local power structure and circle of influence.

I have found that MANY people REFUSE to change unless
forced to by either internal stressors or external stressors.
And while I think using massive force as we are now is
a MISTAKE as a external change stressor, I do think the
internal divisive forces that CURRENTLY prevent a larger
societal change in Afghanistan can be mitigated by doing
low-level covert internal missions to PERMANENTLY REMOVE
those roadblocks which contribute to the blockage of social
change required to jumpstart Afghanistan's march into the
21st century.

So what Obama needs to do NOW is pull out the current large-scale
visible forces from Afghanistan and Iraq and begin spending
more TIME and MONEY on highly mobile, highly covert direct
action groups to coerce, infiltrate, distribute and negotiate
a change in the mindset of the Iraq/Afghani village warlord,
militiaman and religious leader which will trickle down to
the average villager. And after a period of time they are found
NOT CHANGING THEIR HABITS, you do what's done in the western
world of work --- YOU FIRE THEM by either removing them from
religious, political & monetary power or if necessary, creating a
debilitating ACCIDENT such that they aren't in any shape
to interfere or influence!!!

This will take YEARS if not DECADES (50 to 60 years is my guess)
but it's still better than spending 12 billion A MONTH on current
large scale operations. For that kind of money, I could outfit
an entire 1000 man SEAL/DELTA team with Pashtun/Arabic
language and cultural training and have them influence
and/or engage local village leaders or do covert in-field
direct action to remove the local war & drug lords from power
for at least 10 years which would do a hell of a lot more good
than sending a battallion of tanks into Khandahar.

That 12 billion a month could also buy a lot of portable toilets and
toilet paper AND some cheap water well drilling gear in addition
to local training to use and build such materiel for themselves.

That 12 billion a month could also buy a lot of portable brick kilns
and fuel to start building thousands of miles/km of passable
roads across the entire nation to bring in food from the
local farms to the city markets with the accompanying
large-scale economic boost that such roads would bring
if the locals are employed in such large labor-intensive
public works.

12 billion a month would buy a lot of cell phones and wireless
infrastructure which would give the average Afghani & Iraqi
folk the freedom to communicate and freedom to MOVE as
they see fit!

The above 36 billion dollars could turn an enemy into a friend
if applied judiciously and with political skill. But right now,
all I see is a bunch of fear mongering politicos and war-hungry
generals wanting to give it a go without too much thought at
long-term strategic consequences of using large scale military
action within a geographical sphere of influence that doesn't
REQUIRE large scale military force at all!

I'm available for hire if you want a better return
for your taxes than what you've been getting so far!

Any Comments!

To the person who joined the army thank you for your up coming service, and I’m sorry for the way your friends and family treated you. But this is not an uncommon event many new soldiers experience this same attitude from there love ones. Some of it is fear on there part because no one wants to get that call you know the one I’m referring to. Just know that they do love you, and are proud of you. I am proud of you, and wish you well. And I thank you for your service. The current theater I feel is wrong and yes we need to bring are military people home, so that they can better protect us here. We can use all the help we can get on the boarder. As Americans we welcome everyone that is our motto. But there is a front door to come threw and we will welcome you with open arms. But we can use are military here at home to help gather up the ones who chose to come here by different means. That would also open up new jobs. But that is an issue for a different thread.

You people just do not get it!
The military is there to enforce the
policies of the the duly elected government
and is not to make policy.
A reminder the government was elected by us the citizens.
If the the General tells you that you are to do such and sush
you will do so or you are replaced.
Conversely the General is told by said elected government where
to go and what he or she is allowed to do.

I am very tired of seeing and reading about ARM CHAIR generals who never
served and know everything there is to know about the military, yet they never served.
Get up out of that chair and serve, stand the wall against the barbarians because if you wont then who will?

I defended your right to say the things that you all do, I do not agree with most of it because you do not understand or refuse to do so....
And no I have never considered my self a hero, even though I was in two wars.

My Grandfather I think said it best "a hero is some one at the right place and the right time do the the right thing under impossible odds".
he won the bronze star and the purple heart, WWI.

Until you have served you just do not get it.. But I will defend the rights
given to you by this country to my last breath.....!

Wing-Nut
Formally WO2
D troop 4/7 Cav
Gary Owen!