It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Apollo 12's Covert EVA , Are E.T.'s the reason for the Secrecy ?

page: 11
37
<< 8  9  10    12  13  14 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 08:27 PM
link   

Originally posted by ArMaP

Originally posted by Exuberant1
Look at the reception your research received. You are throwing pearls before swine.
The general reception was not bad, this thread made many (or at least some) people look into a new aspect of the information available and made them aware that there were other ways of getting that information.

I think that the best way would be to keep on "throwing the pearls" while making the "swine" aware that they are not on the same "page" and that should behave accordingly.


Yes I agree this is a good thread, and it made me think differently. I can be a bit skeptical and point out threads which have obvious alternate explanations, but that's not because I'm a swine, it's just portraying the facts as I see them. And when a thread has merits like this one, I also point out the merits as I did earlier in the thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
reply to post by easynow
 


While I often find myself agreeing with the Shrike, I have to agree with Easynow here, I thought easynow's OP and LunaCognita's article was relevant. They presented a good case.


I thought combining the anomalous reference to the extra Apollo 12 EVA with the audio silence made an interesting case for a possible extra EVA whether there really was an extra EVA or not. If a thread has good arguments and makes a good case, it should be recognized for that even if it falls short of complete proof.

Also another factor to consider is the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" facet of a claim. Regarding this thread, we already know the astronauts made 2 EVAs so suggesting they could have made a 3rd EVA doesn't qualify as an extraordinary claim, hence less than extraordinary evidence is enough to make us think about the possibility. If some other claims in other thread are more extraordinary, then it shouldn't be surprising that a higher threshold of evidence might be needed for some people to accept the more extraordinary claims.

So Easynow, I compliment you on this thread again, in spite of the fact that you just added me to your respected foes list. I see I'm in good company as I also have a lot of respect for the people on your respected list, so it's nice to see we respect the same people! Thanks for respecting me, I respect you too. But my foe list is empty, I'm just here looking for the truth.


Originally posted by butcherguy
Apparently NASA entertained the idea that life may exist outside our atmospheric envelope.


And they still do entertain the idea that life may exist outside our atmospheric envelope:

www.space.com...


The Phoenix lander descended on Mars on May 25, 2008. Mission scientists used instruments aboard the lander to search for environments suitable for microbial life on Mars, and to research the history of water there.


But at least within our own solar system it seems they lean toward ET life (if it exists) as probably being microbial.


Originally posted by ArMaP
Yes, I remember that too, and from what I remember (meaning "without looking for it in the Internet"
) they did that on the first missions, then reduced it or stopped doing it for latter missions.


You're right.

www.astrosurf.com...

The astronaut quarantine practice was discontinued after the Apollo 14 mission, as from the outcome of the studies from Apollo 11 and 12 missions, they reached the conclusion that it was not a necessary procedure


It does seem they have lowered their expectations of finding even microbial life on the moon as suggested by their discontinuing the use of the quarantine chamber.




posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 08:44 PM
link   
reply to post by ArMaP
 


thanks for clarifying your post from earlier and i see what you meant now but some others that i discussed it with agree that the way you structured that post , some people might have misinterpreted what you meant. nuff said on that , thanks again for the explanation.




and no offense but you are an old dinosaur if you remember seeing the quarantine container broadcasted as it happened
. i was too young to know what i was looking at. i think it's possible they were just being cautious about bringing something back from outerspace or the Moon but it's also very possible that it was a cover to keep the Astronauts from interacting with the press or News reporters too much right after the mission. it would have given NASA alot more time to debrief the crew and set up any needed security protocols before letting them talk publicly.





The astronauts were trapped inside a NASA trailer as part of a quarantine effort just in case they brought back any germs or disease from the moon. They even wore special biological containment suits when they walked out on the deck of the USS Hornet after being retrieved.

NASA transported them to Houston, quarantine trailer and all, and they emerged from isolation three weeks later.
www.space.com...



i have to admit these guy's were not the most enthusiastic people at the press briefing. maybe because they were hiding something ?

www.youtube.com...



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 08:50 PM
link   
reply to post by easynow
 


The desk those astronauts are sitting at - is that the one with the teleprompters embedded in it?

Is that why they keep looking down at them while answering questions? could they be reading teleprompters?

*I guess a paper script would work, but I keep hearing and reading that teleprompters were used for that conference.



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 09:33 PM
link   

Originally posted by easynow
i have to admit these guy's were not the most enthusiastic people at the press briefing. maybe because they were hiding something ?


Or maybe it's because, as this comment posted on youtube for part 2 suggests:


Hmmm.....lets see, why would they be nervous and ill at ease? Maybe because they came back from the moon and were going on TV and knew that THE WHOLE (censored) WORLD would be watching?


Some people rate their fear of public speaking greater than their fear of death, and these guys were chosen for their skills as pilots and astronauts, not for their public speaking ability. I might be nervous and uncomfortable in front of an audience of millions of TV viewers too, just speaking to a few thousand people is bad enough.



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 09:47 PM
link   
reply to post by Arbitrageur
 


I don't agree on that (assuming that I did understand what your point is).

This wasn't the first time they were speaking to the public. They gave a lot of interviews way before even taking off. They were stars even before trying to reach the Moon, just by being selected for the trip.

But it is true... Even with things that you usually do.

...for instance, I still don't like to speak to the passengers during flight (I actually think its ridiculous), and I have some flights in my belt. lol



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 09:49 PM
link   
reply to post by Exuberant1
 


haha . could be but i don't know because i wasn't there. i think it's more likely they were nervous not from speaking in public but because they were so heavily debriefed and told what they could and could not say it became an awkward moment for them instead of it being something enjoyable.



posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 10:23 PM
link   
reply to post by Arbitrageur
 



we already know the astronauts made 2 EVAs so suggesting they could have made a 3rd EVA doesn't qualify as an extraordinary claim


it is an extraordinary claim since NASA has never publicly acknowledged this part of the mission and has kept it a secret all these years.


see this is why you made my famous "foe" list because you continue to try and dilute everyones perception and it's the oldest debunker trick in the book. if you notice everyone on my foes list is a debunker that has never seen a ufo and has never started a thread or made a post that wasn't an attempt to debunk the subject. if you want to earn my trust then you know what to do. nuff said because it's off topic



So Easynow, I compliment you on this thread again


thank you and i did see your previous remark about it even though i didn't publicly reply back to you. the real credit goes to LunaCognita for this thread and the only thing i have done is push a few buttons in order to share this with everyone.



Or maybe it's because, as this comment posted on youtube for part 2 suggests:


again i think you are trying to dilute everyones perception with what you posted and what i replyed back to Exuberant1 with is the exact same thing i will say to you about it.




i think it's more likely they were nervous not from speaking in public but because they were so heavily debriefed and told what they could and could not say it became an awkward moment for them instead of it being something enjoyable.


[edit on 1-12-2009 by easynow]



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 12:08 AM
link   

Originally posted by Tifozi
reply to post by Arbitrageur
 

I don't agree on that (assuming that I did understand what your point is).

This wasn't the first time they were speaking to the public. They gave a lot of interviews way before even taking off. They were stars even before trying to reach the Moon, just by being selected for the trip.

Hmmm I'm not sure I understand your point either. Are you suggesting that their behavior was different on the interviews they gave before going to the moon?

And for some people, nervousness about speaking in front of a large audience doesn't disappear after the first time, I wasn't trying to imply it was their first time in front of the camera.

In any case, we are all just asking questions and speculating about why they bahave the way they do in that video.

By the way it would be nice if we could see the images on the screen they are looking at.


Originally posted by easynow
reply to post by Arbitrageur
 


we already know the astronauts made 2 EVAs so suggesting they could have made a 3rd EVA doesn't qualify as an extraordinary claim

it is an extraordinary claim since NASA has never publicly acknowledged this part of the mission and has kept it a secret all these years.

I guess we define "extraordinary" differently. If ETs were the reason for the secrecy as the title of the thread suggests I would consider that extraordinary. But to suggest a NASA mission could have classified components they wouldn't make public doesn't seem that extraordinary to me.

I don't know what their policy was regarding classified information at the time of Apollo 12 or its history since but I expect it may not have been all that different from their 2006 policy:

www.spaceref.com...

Sec. 1213.106 Preventing release of classified information to the media.

(a) Release of classified information in any form (e.g., documents, through interviews, audio/visual) to the news media is prohibited. The disclosure of classified information to unauthorized individuals may be cause for prosecution and/or disciplinary action against the NASA employee involved. Ignorance of NASA policy and procedures regarding classified information does not release a NASA employee from responsibility for preventing any unauthorized release. See NPR 1600.1, Chapter 5, Section 5.23 for internal NASA guidance on management of classified information. For further guidance that applies to all agencies, see Executive Order 12958, as amended, ``Classified National Security Information,'' and its implementing directive at 32 CFR parts 2001 and 2004.

(b) Any attempt by news media representatives to obtain classified information will be reported through the Headquarters Office of Public Affairs or Installation Public Affairs Office to the Installation Security Office and Office of Security and Program Protection.


I do agree with you that one would have to wonder why they would have "kept it a secret all these years", if there actually was a 3rd EVA.

[edit on 2-12-2009 by Arbitrageur]



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 12:56 AM
link   
reply to post by Arbitrageur
 




I do agree with you that one would have to wonder why they would have "kept it a secret all these years"


like i said on page one,


maybe there were ufo's there and they didn't want anyone to see the pictures or the video ? if Apollo 11 encountered ufo's on the Moon as rumored, then it's certainly possible there could have been a repeat performance with Apollo 12 ?

or

photos taken from high up on the LM would or could have made it a difficult task for the 'image correction specialists' to correctly match them to photos that were altered or tampered with and taken at ground level. much easier to just hide them.



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 07:35 AM
link   

Originally posted by easynow
maybe there were ufo's there and they didn't want anyone to see the pictures or the video ? if Apollo 11 encountered ufo's on the Moon as rumored, then it's certainly possible there could have been a repeat performance with Apollo 12 ?
In that case it would be easier to omit the photos (or present them as overexposed, for example
).


photos taken from high up on the LM would or could have made it a difficult task for the 'image correction specialists' to correctly match them to photos that were altered or tampered with and taken at ground level. much easier to just hide them.
No problems with that, any specialist can change anything in a photo, it would only take more or less time to do it.

 

I don't think that they would three weeks to debrief them, and I don't think that having to give specific answers to some questions would make them look like they do on that press conference, to me it looks more like they were on a situation for which they were not prepared and they were not used to "improvise" in such a situation.

PS: I was six years old in 1969, so I understood my father's explanation of why they were on that "cell". Having been myself in an "oxygen tent" one year before may have helped recognise a medical situation.



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 08:02 AM
link   
reply to post by ArMaP
 



In that case it would be easier to omit the photos (or present them as overexposed, for example ).


you mean like this for example .....





they pointed the camera at the Sun on purpose , the whole thing is a lie.






No problems with that, any specialist can change anything in a photo


no it's more likely that the image correction peeps didn't have the technology to accomplish that and it not be noticed. i'm told by sources i can't reveal it wasn't until the Apollo 14 mission that the technology they needed to expertly manipulate images was made available to them.



I don't think that they would three weeks to debrief them


i disagree, and i am sure after three weeks of debeifing they were sick of talking about it and that's probably one of the reasons why they weren't excited at the press briefing. my advice to you is, stop denying the obvious.





[edit on 2-12-2009 by easynow]



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 10:14 AM
link   

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
I guess we define "extraordinary" differently. If ETs were the reason for the secrecy as the title of the thread suggests I would consider that extraordinary. But to suggest a NASA mission could have classified components they wouldn't make public doesn't seem that extraordinary to me.


Really?? So, you do not find the idea of Apollo astronauts conducting an undeclared, off the record EVA during an Apollo mission - for ANY reason - doing so entirely without the public's knowledge, to be "extraordinary"? Really??? You do not find it extraordinary that you were hoodwinked all these years into believing Conrad and Bean conducted only two EVAs during Apollo 12? You don't find it extraordinary that the public has been denied the photographs that were taken during this undeclared journey outside the pressurized confines of the LM? You don't find it extraordinary that this demonstrates NASA had the capability to hide something as important as an SEVA from the public entirely, and that it means they must have hid a lot more from you during Apollo as well? I find it extraordinary if someone actually thinks that this covert SEVA during Apollo 12 was the only thing NASA lied to you about or covered up!

Why do you think NASA decided to covertly conduct this SEVA during Apollo 12? Obviously, it was because there was something they did not want you, the general public, to know about, right? Considering the Apollo Program's perceived credibility was built on the claims that the missions to the Moon were a completely transparent scientific exploratory effort that was not going to hide anything from the world, I would think finding out that a Standup-EVA was conducted covertly during an Apollo lunar landing mission most definitely falls into the realm of "extraordinary", even before getting into "why" they did it covertly. Maybe that is just me though.

As I have pointed out several times in this thread, it was (and is) absolutely ILLEGAL for NASA to disclose proof of extra-terrestrial life to the public. Their National Security obligations absolutely prevent them from doing so, and in fact forces them to cover up and deny any evidence in "the interests of National Security". That is just a cold, hard fact! Remember, NASA has absolutely NO legal obligation to tell you the truth about anything! As I just pointed out though, NASA does have legal obligations that FORCE them to lie to you!

For over 35 years, NASA managed to lie to you all by entirely concealing the fact that they conducted an SEVA during the Apollo 12 mission. It was not until 2006 that the NASA document leaking information about this SEVA was written, and let's remember that this document not only states that the S-EVA was conducted during Apollo 12, but it also states "why" as well as "when" this SEVA occurred. The idea that this document contains THREE "errors" referencing an event that supposedly never (publicly) happened is rather ludicrous to me. That is a mighty big hurdle for NASA to explain away as being both an completely accidental and totally incorrect set of inclusions, and it certainly is no shock to me that the author of the document has yet to reply to anyone who has requested information about this. Formulating a proper response to something like this takes time because it now clearly involves issues of National Security, and right now NASA is just ignoring this and is hoping it all just goes away. They know any immediate official response would generate reaction and therefore more negative attention to this evidence I have presented, so Step One in a case like this is to "ignore and evaluate". At this stage, NASA has no reason to advance to Step Two - "formulating a response" - until it suits their PR interests to do so.

Cheers,
LC



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 10:49 AM
link   
reply to post by LunaCognita
 


I've been away...but i still find some of the allegations of the "covert" S-EVA, on Apollo 12, hard to reconcile.

I recall the 'missing' minutes from the transcript, alleging a 'private' comm with Houston for that time...and the allegation that the S-EVA was conducted then. But, further reading, (and listening) seems to show very, very normal prep, suiting up, running the checklist, all getting ready for the first "official" EVA, as is in the history.

Just how long, do you suppose, the cabin de-press and re-press would have taken, for that brief S-EVA? Has anyone addressed this yet (sorry if it has been discussed, and if so I missed it).

Let me ask more specific systems questions, too. On the Apollo LMs, it seems that the cabin was de-pressurized via an outflow valve control...this indicates, to me, that the air was evacuated overboard, not recoverable. Meaning, that each de-press/re-press cycle would have to have a finite amount of 'new' O2, in order to re-establish a shirt-sleeve environment, post-EVA. Any thoughts/clarifications on that?

I hope these questions are properly understood.

One more...as to the S-EVA (and, IF it was accomplished, how did they suit-up so quickly?), then seemingly un-suit, and go through the motinos again for the 'historic' EVA??

Oh, if I may be allowed another observation, likely missed in these discussions --- I seem to recall that there were some visiblity issues, and exact orientation difficulties as to their exact location after touchdown. Remember, one mission objective was to be near enough to the Surveyor, in order to retrieve some equipment. This demonstrated a certain ability for precision, in spaceflight landings...and being very certain of location prior to egress was important, given the compressed time frame of each EVA, in terms of tasks to accomplish.

Meaning, IF the S-EVA occured, could it be as simple as not wanting to admit that they needed it, for orientation?? It could have been as benign as that.

Also, the camera....why was pointing it at the sun "intentional"? IF there were things there that were to remain 'hidden'...just don't point the camera at them!!! We were shown plenty of more expansive panoramas in later missions...were "ETs" only hanging about at the Apollo 12 landing site???

I think some jumping to conclusions might have occured here....has anyone tried to contact Alan Bean? He was in DC just last month, his art is currently on exhibit at the Smithsonian. Catch him while he's still around to talk to.



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 11:03 AM
link   

Originally posted by easynow
...they pointed the camera at the Sun on purpose ...

And you know this how exactly?

What are you trying to say -- that some "secret thing" was there, but they pointed the camera at the Sun in hopes that whatever was out there would be obscured by the Sun? What if the "big secret" was not obscured by the Sun? Why would they take that risk? Wouldn't it be better not to point the camera at all toward that "secret thing"?

It just doesn't make sense.



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 11:07 AM
link   
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People
 


Secret undisclosed EVA with photography that is MIA , and the Tv camera being fried ?

coincidence ? nope



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 12:02 PM
link   

Originally posted by weedwhacker
Just how long, do you suppose, the cabin de-press and re-press would have taken, for that brief S-EVA? Has anyone addressed this yet (sorry if it has been discussed, and if so I missed it).

Let me ask more specific systems questions, too. On the Apollo LMs, it seems that the cabin was de-pressurized via an outflow valve control...this indicates, to me, that the air was evacuated overboard, not recoverable. Meaning, that each de-press/re-press cycle would have to have a finite amount of 'new' O2, in order to re-establish a shirt-sleeve environment, post-EVA. Any thoughts/clarifications on that?

Great minds think alike, as I asked the same questions www.abovetopsecret.com... so it has already been discussed. The answers were pretty good I thought, but you can read them for yourself here: www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 12:11 PM
link   

Originally posted by LunaCognita

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
I guess we define "extraordinary" differently. If ETs were the reason for the secrecy as the title of the thread suggests I would consider that extraordinary. But to suggest a NASA mission could have classified components they wouldn't make public doesn't seem that extraordinary to me.


Really?? So, you do not find the idea of Apollo astronauts conducting an undeclared, off the record EVA during an Apollo mission - for ANY reason - doing so entirely without the public's knowledge, to be "extraordinary"?


Well as I said it's a good thread and I compliment you for making a fascinating case about this incident. If there was a 3rd EVA I would say "shocking" could be a good description. Actually extraordinary might fit in some contexts too but I was using that word in the context of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" and in that context, ET is extraordinary since like bigfoot, we've never seen a dead body of an alien so knowledge confirming ET is completely outside our experience and hence "extraordinary".

On the other hand, NASA made 2 EVAs so the fact that they might make one more isn't something beyond our knowledge or experience. And the reason I posted their policy on handling classified information they can't share with the public is to demonstrate that if they have a policy for handling classified information, they have classified information they aren't sharing with the public. So we may not know what the information is, but we know they have it, therefore why would it be extraordinary to find out they actually have followed that policy and kept classified information from us?

So my reason for saying that wasn't to diminish the interest of what you found, I still think it's very interesting. the context was that we know EVAs exist and we know NASA has a classified information policy, so suggesting they have classified information we don't know about and that they made one more EVA is not something beyond what falls into the areas of known facts or capabilities. What is unknown (to me) is what classified information they are keeping from us, and you have made me consider some possibilities for that I hadn't considered before, so good job!

I was thinking of the cold war mentality that existed at the time of the Apollo missions. After all the moon landings were said to be the result of the cold war space race, right? So in the context of that war, would it be that shocking to find out they had conducted some experiments that the public and the soviets weren't told about, in addition to the peaceful mission that was made public? I'm just sharing my thought process, and considering things like Project Horizon


Project Horizon was a study to determine the feasibility of constructing a military base on the Moon.


Well it wasn't feasible and was canceled for that reason, but it does give some insight into the cold war thought processes regarding possible future colonization of the moon, having military interests to protect there, and what seems to go hand in hand with military? That's right, secrets. You can't tell your enemy all your secrets and give away all your advantages. So in that context, the possibility of having a cold war related classified aspect to an otherwise peaceful mission wouldn't shock me. But why exactly a standup EVA would be classified is mysterious.

Weedwhacker's question about whether they just didn't want to admit they were disoriented due to all the dust that obscured their view during descent seems like a possibility, though I would have thought if that were the reason, NASA would have declassified it by now since the cold war is over, etc.

[edit on 2-12-2009 by Arbitrageur]



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 12:38 PM
link   
reply to post by Arbitrageur
 


good post Arbitrageur ,

your using good common sense there and i am starting to like you


have a star



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 12:42 PM
link   

Originally posted by weedwhacker


Hi Weedwacker - let me run through your questions quickly here

Regarding the spacesuits -
The Apollo 12 crew landed the LM while wearing their A7-L spacesuits in case of hull breach upon touchdown, so they did not have to actually suit up at all prior to conducting the covert SEVA. They were already suited and connected to internal LM water and O2 life support. The SEVA was not conducted with the PLSS packs remember.

Preparations for the SEVA began almost immediately after landing at Statio Cognitium, and that was when NASA began "padding the timeline" - employing a "tape delay" stalling technique that allowed the astronauts to build up covert buffers of time they could later use up immediately before and during the covert SEVA to give them a larger "covert window" than the 19 minutes of dead-air on the public loop suggests they had to conduct this SEVA. As just one example from the Apollo 12 mission, one way the astronauts helped build up these pads in the timeline after landing was by claiming that they “accidentally” entered the wrong information into the LM navigation platform the first time around, which allowed them to make it appear as if they were forced to spend 10 minutes redoing the whole procedure. This was a simple lie that the public has absolutely NO way of confirming the validity of, and it allowed the astronauts to be covertly building tape-delay buffers and preparing for the SEVA while the public thought their actions were still being accounted for doing something else. Sorry, but there is no way I am going to be able to properly present all the evidence related to and cohesively explain how tape-delay "buffer building" worked during the Apollo Program here in a 4000 character post.

Venting -
Yes, the O2 was vented overboard from the LM during depress. The LM could be easily depressed in a matter of a minute or two (especially using the top-side Cabin Relief Dump Valve), and the LM cabin could be repressed in under a minute when they set "Cabin Re-pressurization" to "auto" with the A and B pressure regulators set to "Cabin" mode. Even if you go with the idea that the astronauts only could have conducted the SEVA during the nearly 19-minute "dead air" blackout period and discount the idea of timeline tape-delay "buffer building" completely, after taking depress/repress into account it still means the astronauts would have had at least 15 minutes to pop their heads up through the +X overhead hatch, shoot some 360-degree panoramics, get their bearings by identifying Surveyor Crater, and get back in again without the public knowing.


"Meaning, IF the S-EVA occured, could it be as simple as not wanting to admit that they needed it, for orientation?? It could have been as benign as that."


Sure, it "could" have been that simple, but even it was, I don't consider covering up the fact that NASA had astronauts conduct a covert SEVA (and cover up the imagery that would have been taken during the event) for ANY reason during an Apollo mission to be considered "benign". If they could so easily justify lying to everyone about the number of EVAs actually conducted during an Apollo mission under the "benign" excuse of not wanting to reveal they needed to do the SEVA for "orientation purposes", imagine what else they easily could (and did) conceal from you related to other activities! It demonstrates how easily the public was able to be misled and was lied to during the Apollo program, and how things like an undeclared EVA could be and were conducted without the world knowing a damn thing about it. Considering Apollo was a tax-payer funded effort - the most expensive exploratory endeavor in human history that built it's perceived credibility around the concept of transparency in order to get the public to foot the massive bill - finding out that NASA lied to us about anything should make people ask "how deep do the lies really go?"

Cheers,
LC



posted on Dec, 2 2009 @ 01:27 PM
link   
reply to post by LunaCognita
 


Well, lot more to digest.

Since lack the access to that sort of data, nor the time, to what's claimed I'm in no position to verify, or challenge the claims; I will leave that to others.

How about simply contacting Alan Bean??? He lives here on the East coast...(forget where, exactly). Gee, after all this time? Maybe you can commission a painting from him....



new topics

top topics



 
37
<< 8  9  10    12  13  14 >>

log in

join