Apollo 12's Covert EVA , Are E.T.'s the reason for the Secrecy ?

Originally posted by LunaCognita

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
That's the way science works.

That is not the way science works though. What you are describing is the way pure science is SUPPOSED to work in a perfect world where nobody is being forced to hide any discoveries from the public.

Most of "what we know about the Moon at the moment..." is based upon evidence that NASA has been allowed to provide us over the decades. Not telling the public that certain evidence even exists is the very first step one would take to cover that evidence up, and the fact is NASA was (and is) legally obligated to hide and deny certain evidence that could be deemed to threaten "National Security".

During the Apollo era for example, NASA had their own incredibly wide interpretation of Executive Order 10501 and the definition of the term "National Defense" to follow, and NASA's version of that particular Executive Order forced them to paint a broad "classified" brushstroke over just about anything that could be deemed controversial at all - and certainly forced them to cover-up anything related to the discovery of extra-terrestrial life (past or present).

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10501
SAFEGUARDING OFFICIAL INFORMATION IN THE INTERESTS OF THE DEFENSE OF THE UNITED STATES
Here is a link to the original 10501 Executive Order from 1953 (Eisenhower Admin.)
www.fas.org...

And here is NASA's Apollo-era interpretation of EO 10501, from the "NASA Security Classification Criteria and Guidelines" (doc NHB 1640.4), dated July 1st, 1966.

1. Executive Order 10501 requires that NASA classify certain types of 'official information' in the interests of national defense. Within the context of this Handbook:
a. The term 'official information' is defined as information which is owned by, produced by, or is subject to the control of the United States Government;
b. The term 'national defense' is interpreted in a broad sense to include not only considerations of military defense but also economic and political factors having bearing on the national defense posture."

By being made to interpret "National Defense" so that national security classification considerations had to take into account military, economic, and political factors, (which by default means geo-military, geo-economic, and geo-political factors), NASA had little choice but to ensure the upcoming Apollo missions would not reveal to the public ANY evidence of past or present extra-terrestrial life they might find in space or on the Moon. The now-famed Brookings Institute Report findings published in 1961 provided some earlier framework behind why it was deemed advisable to cover up any incredible discoveries like that, and NASA's version of 10501 solidified that framework prior to the Apollo program ever even leaving the ground.

Here is a link to the online version of NASA document HHR-32
NASA Office of Defense Affairs: The First Five Years
Chapter 14 - NASA SECURITY CLASSIFICATION PROGRAM.
This chapter deals specifically with the discussion surrounding NASA's adoption of their modified EO 10501 National Security interpretation in 1966, and is quite an interesting read IMO.
history.nasa.gov...

So, why should we trust NASA to tell us what they have discovered at all? How many "unannounced" discoveries have turned into "classified" discoveries over the years? How many lies have we been told? The answer is that we will never know unless they actually admit to hiding things from us (such is the way security classification and compartmentalization protocols tend to work!). With NASA's interpretation of 10501 to follow during the Apollo era, it would have been absolutely illegal for NASA to reveal something as incredible and profound as the existence of extra-terrestrial life to the public! It still is today! That is a very scary, but very real FACT.

Cheers,
LC

thanks LunaCognita , that was an awesome post my friend and i am shocked after reading those security classifications that anyone would have the nerve to say NASA is not capable of keeping secrets from us.

reply to post by easynow


Having the means does not mean that they can do it, there's no such thing as a complete secret, that's why they say that the best kept secrets are the ones left in the open.

PS: there is no need to quote the full post, just use the "reply to" button.

reply to post by ArMaP

Having the means does not mean that they can do it, there's no such thing as a complete secret, that's why they say that the best kept secrets are the ones left in the open.

yes but it surely doesn't mean they can't and how would you know there's no such thing as a complete secret ? do you have some experience with a Top Secret clearance and have something to base that on or is it only your opinion ?

Wish granted.

You have to be fast, it's only a temporary link.

For those that see this too late, you can always request the image again from this page.

thanks ArMaP that was fast ! thanks for granting me a wish , are you a genie ? or a genius ? no really thanks bro that was very helpful and that image was a big file, it took me a few minutes to download it. after looking at the object in that HR pic i would say it's possible that it's a piece of ice but there's no way for me to be sure. a very interesting shade of blue isn't it ?

s255.photobucket.com...

www.lpi.usra.edu...
www.lpi.usra.edu...

[edit on 26-11-2009 by easynow]

Originally posted by easynow
God only knows if they would want to study whatever they found and possibly use it for some bio weapon. i know that's extreme sounding but you can't rule it out

Maybe you can't rule it out, and of course we would study ET bacteria but if it's bio weapons we want I think we already have some pretty effective ones which we're not allowed to use anyway and probably don't want to because they can have a nasty effect of coming back and attacking the people that deploy it.

Regarding Michio Kaku's claim of "Panic" over ET disclosure, polls show most people already believe in ET so I think the majority of people would react by thinking: "Thanks for finally telling us, but we already knew about ET, ho hum", a point Shostak makes at 9 minutes in this video:



I guess we can't completely rule out the possibility of panic, heck some people might panic in December 2012 for the dumb reason the Mayan calendar resets, but it won't be many and I think the same thing can be expected from ET disclosure, a few might panic but the vast majority won't.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


perhaps you are underestimating the military industrial complex and the fact that if somekind of microbial life or something else was found they are going to be the first ones to assess the situation and decide if there is anything of value to them. yes i think so

even though many people already believe in E.T. or whatever , it's really going to come down to the who what where when and why before you can make any guesses as to what the public reaction will be. if their friendly humanoids then sure people might not freak out but if there something freakish and aggressive then i would say your absolutely 100% wrong. people will flip out , i know i will.

Originally posted by easynow

the Moon sure does look like green cheese in those pics eh ?

it sure does..... and as lunacognita had earlier pointed out.... in fact it was discussed in brief....

Apollo 10 Photo Debrief - Case #340

LUNAR SURFACE OBSERVATIONS

Color

The lunar maria were described as brown at high sun angles, and greyish brown near the terminator (the color reproduced in frame 5149 of landing site 2 was described to approximate the real color in the latter case). The crew reiterated their commentary which accompanied the TV transmission following TEI where they noted a color mottling of Mare Serenitatis, light brown and tan brown, as compared to the darker "chocolate brown" color of Mare Tranquillitatis." The astronauts emphasized the lack of any green tints which are apparent in some of the color film.

The color of the lunar highlands was described as tan . (frame 5079 approximates the real color). Deviations from the tan color are caused by mare material (brown), fresh impact craters (chalky white) and a number of "jet black" layers and blocks. It was indicated that the contrast between the white and black outcrops as produced on the black and white film is less than the real contrast; white is brighter and black is darker on the lunar surface than on the film.

now that said.... which one is the real deal?

Originally posted by mcrom901

Originally posted by easynow

the Moon sure does look like green cheese in those pics eh ?

it sure does..... and as lunacognita had earlier pointed out.... in fact it was discussed in brief....

Apollo 10 Photo Debrief - Case #340

LUNAR SURFACE OBSERVATIONS

Color
(snip)
The astronauts emphasized the lack of any green tints which are apparent in some of the color film.

Thanks mcrom901, that's the quote I was looking for earlier in the thread, about the astronauts not being able to see the green that was in the photos. So they had trouble seeing green on the moon as well as on the Earth. But the photos do show green on the moon even though they had trouble seeing it.

@easynow, Yes if the aliens are hostile like the movie "Independence Day" everyone will be freaking out including me!

But did you notice they sort of announced themselves? So nobody in official positions had to make any decisions about whether to release the information to the public or not!

Originally posted by easynow
do you have some experience with a Top Secret clearance and have something to base that on or is it only your opinion ?

No, I just have some experience with the way people think and behave, and I know some people that have kept secrets for many years.

reply to post by ArMaP


how about these.......

community.theblackvault.com...

reply to post by mcrom901


I think I should explain better what I meant.

There are obviously secret things, but to me the absolute secrets are those that only one person knows about and never tells anyone.

Things like trade secrets, for example, are known by several people, they may talk about them without disclosing them, so while they are kept secret their existence is not.

reply to post by LunaCognita

it would have been absolutely illegal for NASA to reveal something as incredible and profound as the existence of extra-terrestrial life to the public! It still is today! That is a very scary, but very real FACT.

i agree and it's obvious that they have secrets so i don't understand why some people think or believe NASA is just going to tell us everything they know. why do certain people expect others to believe the Astronauts are allowed to talk freely about this stuff when we already know it would be a crime to do so ?

maybe it's too much for them to accept and they just can't believe that NASA might not be telling them everything ? i think this dust management document that mentions the secret stand up EVA is proof that they are keeping some secrets.

reply to post by easynow


Hey Easynow,

It is like Battered Wife syndrome or Stockholm syndrome a la NASA.

I don't even bother posting my good finds here anymore.

Look at the reception your research received. You are throwing pearls before swine.

Originally posted by Exuberant1
I don't even bother posting my good finds here anymore.

And that way you are contributing to the problem, reducing the number of people that post their finds when compared to the number of people that look like they're just waiting for some posts with which they can disagree (or attack, according to their nature).

It also made LunaCognita post some more, and that is a good enough reason for these threads.

Look at the reception your research received. You are throwing pearls before swine.

The general reception was not bad, this thread made many (or at least some) people look into a new aspect of the information available and made them aware that there were other ways of getting that information.

I think that the best way would be to keep on "throwing the pearls" while making the "swine" aware that they are not on the same "page" and that should behave accordingly.

Originally posted by ArMaP
And that way you are contributing to the problem, reducing the number of people that post their finds when compared to the number of people that look like they're just waiting for some posts with which they can disagree (or attack, according to their nature).

It also made LunaCognita post some more, and that is a good enough reason for these threads.

I am not contributing to any problem.


Please explain to me what you feel the problem here is.


Edit - To Add:

Check out my latest find. It is from Apollo 12 and has been censored from some of the other versions of the image;

I called it "The Censored 'Comet' over Tsiolkovsky - Apollo 12".

In an Apollo 15 image my brother spotted a rocket on the lunar surface - right on the central island structure of Tsiolkovsky. I am not posting that here though. Enjoy the 'Comet'!

Easynow, you know where to contact me to get more on this if you want it. It has already been discussed by many of us. Mikesingh's take is the best.

We have determined that the 'comet' is not one of these blue things, even though it is blue...:

Both images are from Apollo 12

[edit on 1-12-2009 by Exuberant1]

reply to post by ArMaP


ArMaP i am dissapointed and shocked that you implied that LunaCognita only posted more because he was waiting for something to attack because it is his "nature"

can you read his mind or something ? do you know him well enough to be painting this picture you have of him ?



[edit on 1-12-2009 by easynow]

Originally posted by easynow
i think your post is rude and insulting

That's because you understood it in a way that was completely opposed to what I meant.

I will try to rephrase it, to clear any doubts.

... reducing the number of people that post their finds when compared to the number of people that look like they're just waiting for some posts with which they can disagree (or attack, according to their nature).

By this I meant that if people that post their findings and the result of their research leave because of those that only want to attack them, then those that are just waiting for someone to attack will turn into the majority, and that should be avoided.

It also made LunaCognita post some more, and that is a good enough reason for these threads.

This is not related to the previous sentence, but to the way your thread was received, and it meant only that your thread made LunaCognita post more, and some very good posts.

I don't know if I made myself clear this time, but please re-read my original post, preferably without any preconceived idea about what I was going to say.

If it's not clear enough please send me a U2U so we can solve this misunderstanding.

In July, 1969 I remember watching news reports on television when the Apollo 11 crew splashed down in the ocean. They were decontaminated and hustled off to be quarantined for some period of time to prevent the spread of (possible) 'moon germs'. I recall them speaking to president Nixon over a telephone as they peered from a window in their quarantine area, which as I remember looked sort of like an aluminum trailer. Apparently NASA entertained the idea that life may exist outside our atmospheric envelope.

I went looking for more information about the stand-up EVA but the only thing I could find was a list in which they do not show any for Apollo 12.

Extravehicular Activity

Too bad the e-mails to the report author were not answered, I would like to see what she would say about it.

Originally posted by butcherguy
In July, 1969 I remember watching news reports on television when the Apollo 11 crew splashed down in the ocean. They were decontaminated and hustled off to be quarantined for some period of time to prevent the spread of (possible) 'moon germs'. I recall them speaking to president Nixon over a telephone as they peered from a window in their quarantine area, which as I remember looked sort of like an aluminum trailer. Apparently NASA entertained the idea that life may exist outside our atmospheric envelope.

good point butcherguy ,


en.wikipedia.org...

President Richard M. Nixon was in the central Pacific recovery area to welcome the Apollo 11 astronauts aboard the U.S.S. Hornet, prime recovery ship for the historic Apollo 11 lunar landing mission. Already confined to the Mobile Quarantine Facility (MQF) are (left to right) Neil A. Armstrong, commander; Michael Collins, command module pilot; and Edwin E. Aldrin Jr., lunar module pilot. Apollo 11 splashed down at 11:49 a.m. (CDT), July 24, 1969, about 812 nautical miles southwest of Hawaii and only 12 nautical miles from the U.S.S. Hornet. The three crew men will remain in the MQF until they arrive at the Manned Spacecraft Center's (MSC) Lunar Receiving Laboratory (LRL). While astronauts Armstrong and Aldrin descended in the Lunar Module (LM) "Eagle" to explore the Sea of Tranquility region of the Moon, astronaut Collins remained with the Command and Service Modules (CSM) "Columbia" in lunar-orbit.

why all the fuss about Quarrantine if NASA didn't believe there was some life they could bring back to Earth ?

[edit on 1-12-2009 by easynow]

reply to post by easynow


Yes, I remember that too, and from what I remember (meaning "without looking for it in the Internet" ) they did that on the first missions, then reduced it or stopped doing it for latter missions.