An attack on America by Europe

Originally posted by ocker

Good posts SLAYER69 you always look a post and think about in what context the person has written. and then you always respond with a level head .
I love reading your responces keep up the good work.

Ocker

Thank you.

I appreciate an open mind. For some reason I'm to pay for the sins of the OP and feel the general anger and frustrations from other posters.


Slayer

Whipping boy extraordinaire!

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Ahh but do you?

I mean from an American perspective let's use WWII shall we?

WWII? What a surprise! It's not as if Americans don't like to make a point using WWII!

We see Germany=Germans attacking the Soviet union=Russians and France=French. Italy=Italians doing their bit and the UK with their Scots and Irish and English.

From our perspective you were all divided by race and culture. While most Americans have two, three, maybe even four different bloods in their veins and we felt none of the cultural, Racial issues dividing Europe at the time.

Now we hear about the EU. So are you a country? Or a group of nations still divided by languages and cultures?

You're creating your own confusion here, or rather Americans are in this thread. There's only an issue with any of this if you're coming from the viewpoint that Europe is some unified entity. A place where all the people share many aspects and cultures. As many Europeans have pointed out on this thread and others, to try and lump Europeans together in any way other than talking about a rough geographic landmass is a nonsense. As I've said already in this thread, when Americans are talking about Europeans in the way they do, they're actually talking about 50 different countries and god knows how many languages and cultures.

You're talking as if we shouldn't be divided and theres' some kind of problem that we are. Of course we're divided. For a start, some of us are actually divided from other Europeans by a sea! Others are divided by languages, traditions, conquests, monarchies and so on. This idea of unity in Europe seems to be more in the heads of Americans than anyone else.

The EU is a separate thing and whilst I don't agree with a lot of it, some of it at least makes sense. Firstly, for those on continental Europe a lot of what goes on makes perfect sense because of the way many countries border each other and have to contend, work, trade and travel with each other.

Also, from another perspective, it also makes sense for a lot of these countries to band together when necessary due to the fact that to the far West you've got one teetering superpower with a recent reputation for aggressive foreign policies and a history of actually using atomic weapons on one side, the well-armed arch-nemesis of that super-power (not to mention some of the younger European countries) to the East as well as the burgeoning super powers to the Far East. Perhaps these countries, all who have first hand experience of when power goes bad have a wary eye?

With regards to the blood and race thing, I'm not so sure as that appears to be based on this idea that is happy bunch of mongrels who get on with one and other and the idea of Europe being one racial stock, culture and language pitted against another. Whilst some divides do exist, others don't and certainly not in the way that some people are insistent in perpetuating, even when science goes against it, such as the idea about 'celts' - which to be honest, is one of my biggest grievances with many Americans: this #ing peculiar nonsense about 'celts' and Anglo-Saxons.

For example, using your 'American model', it's more than likely that I've got 3 lots of supposedly different blood in me too. My mother's family are Welsh, I've traced my father's family back to the early 1600s and it's all English (whatever that is), but my family name has a Scandinavian origin. I personally have no beef with anyone from Europe on 'racial' grounds. I also know enough about history to know I'd be bit of dick to have a scramasax to grind given that the relationship these islands have with the continental mainland. We weren't always an island and people having been coming and going since the last big melt.

Yes on ATS/Conspiracy site!

Point taken, but are the claims made and the references to news stories that back-up the thread in the first place originating in ATS? I mean the stories about Texas and so on wanting to break away &c?

Originally posted by Merriman Weir

You're talking as if we shouldn't be divided and theres' some kind of problem that we are. Of course we're divided. For a start, some of us are actually divided from other Europeans by a sea! Others are divided by languages, traditions, conquests, monarchies and so on. This idea of unity in Europe seems to be more in the heads of Americans than anyone else.

First off please start your reply by stating your family nationalities.
I say that in plural becuase we are after all talking about Americans.

I'm of German, Italian and Mescalero Indian descent with a smidgen of Spanish and Portuguese thrown in there some place.

Before I begin lets start by taking a nice long look at their faces.
Would you think twice about boarding a plane with them in 2002?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/347e6c3dea8f.jpg[/atsimg]




If you raised your hand I would understand. However those are some Americans great great grandparents that came through Ellis Island to become Americans and start families. I will be posting many pictures of the immigrants that came through. Isn't it funny how our perspectives change over the years? Hey how about this guy? He came through Ellis island around 1900.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6ed6fa7136bc.jpg[/atsimg]

Too many times I hear many Non-American ATS members make some rather ignorant statements about Americans being ignorant about other cultures...How was it put again? oh yeah.

When will Americans realize there are other cultures on this Planet as well?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/cd2a37020eb2.jpg[/atsimg]

I have been reading many threads over the years, many before I became a member. One thread really got my blood boiling so I decided to join ATS to chime in. In it I heard people making all kinds of statements about us that simply were not true. Clumping all of us into a single stereo type.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b4feaef5f070.jpg[/atsimg]

My favorites are the ones where we hear that we have no clue about where countries are and that they can't find places on a map etc.

Most Americans don't even know where Europe is

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2ea767a984c4.jpg[/atsimg]

When will America grow up and realize there are many culture and races on Earth not just American!

Yeah ok... I think we have the Other cultures thing down pat.
Oh yeah... we are from those other cultures. Imagine that?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/75cb6059b28d.jpg[/atsimg]

They feel the U.S. do not respect other cultures and wants to impose its own to the world. Everyone love hollywood movies and eating burgers, but everyone hates when Americans seems to know nothing about your culture.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/97a6a5938987.jpg[/atsimg][atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8f717bb38 2c5.jpg[/atsimg][atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1082cb0ffd72.jpg[/atsimg][atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2 b1e311c652f.jpg[/atsimg][atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2502694f1b44.jpg[/atsimg][atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/ member/a29622c88f81.jpg[/atsimg][atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/35a2c5c022e9.jpg[/atsimg]

I watch a lot of shows that are made in America and it is actually hilarious how patriotic the characters in those shows are, Always pledging their alliance to the National Flag

1942 Kids in Saint Francis oops sorry its in Spanish I mean San Francisco CA.
Saying the pledge of allegiance.
From left to right Korean, Scotch/Irish, Japanese, Chinese and Hispanic

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d65795957c62.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fedcf7cb2d16.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c27281b6987b.jpg[/atsimg]

Americans ALWAYS try to get the flag in the picture to re-enforce the need to be patriotic to the people

Well of course we do...

For many of us it's a hell of a lot better than pledging our allegiance to a Monarch, Dictator or some religious fanatic nut job. Many here do not hold onto ancient cultural rivalries. We only have each other. Black, White, Brown, Red and yellow etc. All bound together under the Red White and Blue.

I would like to ask many non Americans a question.

When you say American do you really know who we are or where we come from?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/288788b817cd.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fe3125427421.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a95d6ccd8b34.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/07465b9ccd75.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/15b9ac4b2225.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/dbdfe2082214.jpg[/atsimg]

Americans are a bunch of fat ignorant redneck hicks

your country has become a souless bloodthirsty monster, that destroys everything in its path.

Well some may see it that way.

I don't know....

I just don't see Russian/Americans killing Georgian/Americans in the streets or Palestinian/Americans and Jewish/Americans lobbing rockets or exchanging tanks blasts or our Muslim Shia/Americans and Muslim Sunni/Americans Blowing each other up. Most Americans from India don't bother following some ancient caste system. Our Chinese Americans are free to travel anywhere they can afford.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/05031c300f90.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e0e3c12b1c6a.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/36c386c8030c.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d372ff5837f5.jpg[/atsimg]

To be continued in a new thread near you
Stay tuned.

[edit on 21-10-2009 by SLAYER69]

That's just a very small portion of a much more in depth thread I've been working on. If you haven't seen your families slice of the American pie represented don't worry I'm still working on it. Thanks OP for allowing me to post this in your thread.



Peace.

[edit on 21-10-2009 by SLAYER69]

[edit on 21-10-2009 by SLAYER69]

Well I kind of expected some of went down in the thread to go down, however it was not my Intention to start a mudslinging contest, I probably could have worded it better, eh maybe next time...

I do want to thank those "Europeans" who actually understood what I was attempting to convey. And for those for you (Americans Included) who did not seem to understand what I was saying then that’s okay, you might not have read it all or jumped on the title of my thread, but thanks for stopping buy and leaving me your thoughts...

reply to post by poedxsoldiervet


As I understand it, the sort of hypocrisy you are rallying against is that Europeans shouldn't criticise the years of the GWB administration and it subsequent legacy that stretches in to the current administration because they have committed worse in their long history? That without America, the free world (?) wouldn't be so free?

Well, I'm going to leave aside the idea of imagining the world as it would be without the USA. I think that's for a different thread, so excuse me that.

Europe's past record: Europe is a continent comprising 50 sovereign states and a handful of non-sovereign territories. The culture of each nation stretching back for a millennium; radically different and often opposed to one another. 731 million people speaking hundreds of different languages, some without English translations. Yet you seek to lump them all together as one: Europe.

The ignorance of your post can be encapsulated in this one fallacy. The Americas has a population of about 900 million, which is clearly comparable to the population of Europe when generalising, no? So, is it alright if those outside of the Americas presume that the USA is politically unstable because of the unrest in Central America, or suggest that because Venezuela is socialist, you all must be?

What's that? A cannibal in the Americas? How dare they criticise the French for eating frogs when they used to eat people!

Even without this, you state that the Europe's 'darker past' 'makes America look like a savior'. For how long can you be held accountable for your ancestors' crimes? What bearing does this have on the current criticism of the USA's foreign policy? Once you, or if your father, or your grandfather, or his father... committed a crime, you cannot comment on anyone else's faults? Don't be daft.

No one Migrated to Europe because you are this beacon of freedom and liberty

I'm weighing up whether to respond to this, because I can't believe that you could actually believe such a statement and that you've typed it just to provoke a reaction. However, I will. Let me re-iterate, Europe is a continent. It is not a country. People do not emigrate to Europe, but to the countries with in it. Migration within Europe has occurred for millennia, through revolutions, religious persecution, wars, ideology and economic strife. Immigration remains one of the many themes that divide Europe's countries.

Your grouping of a continent in to a single entity doesn't work. Try it again for the Americas. See? Your statement completely collapses when you take the countries as separate entities. People emigrate to the USA for 'freedom and liberty', but equally, they do, and did, to Germany, to France, to Britain, to Spain, to Greece &c.

You talk of Europe's past, of peoples long dead, that their legacy still pervades the modern day Europe, but the USA is a nation that not 50 years ago did not give the same rights to blacks. Living people that thought it acceptable, nay, right, for blacks to not be permitted use the same drinking fountain as whites, yet your last administration acted as if it was a white knight clad in a spotless uniform, come to rid the world of all that's bad, wielding a sword of incorruptible and inviolable morality. It's this, the hypocrisy of the USA's last administration that galls a lot of Americas and non-Americas. Claiming that the Europe is tarnished by its past while the USA's current foreign policy isn't, is myopic and does little to address the actual problems that all countries face.

Anyway, where's the conspiracy? Many nations used to be less discriminate in their use of force and less tolerant, some still are.

[edit on 21-10-2009 by Woland]

reply to post by SLAYER69


That was actually very Beautiful, I think sometimes Americans actually dont get it sometimes... I think it was you who stated earlier that most Americans have several different "bloods" running through there veins, That is Americas greatest Strenght and her Greatest Weakness.... God I love this country.... I served in Iraq with 2 muslims one from Palastine and one from Syria. (they still have family in said countries) They remeber there home land and said they would not go back They love America to much to go back to backward ways... There words not mine...

Originally posted by SLAYER69
First off please start your reply by stating your family nationalities.
I say that in plural becuase we are after all talking about Americans.

Erm, you'll notice I did in the post above.

EDIT to add: I wasn't sure whether you were talking to or about Americans here as you seemed to tag all that onto a response to me.

Too many times I hear many Non-American ATS members make some rather ignorant statements about Americans being ignorant about other cultures...How was it put again? oh yeah.

Slayer, give us some respect, we're aware that American people are the result of the intermingling of diverse immigrants, Christ, we're told about it enough. The problem is, you're talking about photographs and people who went through Ellis Island in the 1800s and 1900s. It's 2009, Slayer. All those countries didn't freeze frame like those photographs. I've heard 'Irish-Americans' talk about Ireland as if it's still the early 20th Century or even early 19th Century.

[edit on 21-10-2009 by Merriman Weir]

reply to post by Woland


Apparently you diddnt get it either... Thats okay... Also I never called the French Frogs, I called the asshole who spit on me a frog big difference there buddy

The EU is "some unified entity".

I call it the EU.

Compare it with the North American Union.



[edit on 21/10/2009 by C0bzz]

Originally posted by Merriman Weir
Slayer. All those countries didn't freeze frame like those photographs. I've heard 'Irish-Americans' talk about Ireland as if it's still the early 20th Century or even early 19th Century.

As always you don't get it.

We left our baggage a long time ago. No we don't still think of Europe in those terms. But we don't hold onto the things that divide you.


[edit on 21-10-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by poedxsoldiervet


orry, bear with me, i must be some sort of idiot.

i've read your OP a couple of time and i understand it to mean "you don't have the right to critisise us, look what europeans have done" you seem to be suggesting this is not what you meant, so i'ld appreciate if you'ld clarify it for me.

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
reply to post by Woland

 

Apparently you diddnt get it either... Thats okay... Also I never called the French Frogs, I called the asshole who spit on me a frog big difference there buddy

Perhaps you could point me to the post where you do explain what exactly you meant. Or better, edit the rambling OP to clarify.

I never said you called teh French, frogs. Not sure where you got that from. I was pointing out that when lump people together you end up with absurd conclusions. If it's alright to class all Europeans together in a collective past, it should be okay to do the same with the Americas too, no?

Clearly it's not, so don't do it with Europe.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
As always you don't get it.

We left our baggage a long time ago. No we don't still think of Europe in those terms. But we don't hold onto the things that divide you.

[edit on 21-10-2009 by SLAYER69]

No you don't get it, Slayer. The point I was making is that when American turn around and say 'you can't accuse us of not knowing about other cultures' you can't use the people leaving countries in the last couple of hundred years as examples. Those cultures have gone, those countries have changed just like the rest of the world. I'm finding it peculiar that considering you're supposed to have left the past behind you - as you've stated now in a couple of posts - you seem insistent on using the past to try and answer things when they're not really relevant.

When people are criticising America, they're talking about America now or over the last decade. Not 60 years ago, not 200 years ago and not a 1000 years ago. Yet it's Americans that seem to want to talk about this weird combined Europe past of 60 years ago, 200 years ago or a 1000 years ago and it's Americans that want to use their past to try and answer questions about America today.

Yes, we get it, some of you had grandparents and great-grandparents that 'got off the boat' from various countries a hundred years ago or whatever, but as I said, that doesn't necessarily mean the ancestors of those people are forever connected to that culture that you admit yourself they left behind.

Here's your land of the free and home of the brave...

www.ibmandtheholocaust.com...

Your government was fully aware of the 'census' technology that Hitler and his crew were using to quickly identify those of unwanted ethnic backgrounds for the concentration camps. IBM created it and generated supernormal profits through its German subsidiary.

Wonder how the Nazis could sweep into a town, immediately post a full list of Jews, etc. to be removed, and pile them into a train bound for concentration camps? IBM fixed it for them. .

Want to know why America stayed out of WW2 till '41...good old IBM were lobbying them!

And the irony is..your entire social security/info gathering systems were built with the technology developed for the nazis...

God bless America.

Every country is as bad as each other. Live with it. You're so busy throwing insults, you can't see your constitution's "clay feet".

Originally posted by SLAYER69
But we don't hold onto the things that divide you.

what, like nationality?? irish-american, african-american, latin-american, asian american, anglo-american, native-american?

i don't believe i've ever spoken to, or heard speak, an american-american.

creed? christian schools, jewish quaters, bible belt.

colour? yeah right.

language? english, french spanish and portuguese.

ideology, left, right socialists and facists. just becaue you guys don't seem to understand them, doesn't mean you're not divided by them.

what is it you guys have left behind?

Originally posted by Merriman Weir

Yes, we get it, some of you had grandparents and great-grandparents that 'got off the boat' from various countries a hundred years ago or whatever, but as I said, that doesn't necessarily mean the ancestors of those people are forever connected to that culture that you admit yourself they left behind.

See that's your problem...

You don't get it. It has nothing to do with a boat or a plane or a century ago or a month ago. We look at Europe as the new comers to the whole United thing. Hell just over 65+ years ago you almost destroyed yourselves.

Edit to ADD: I'm off to sleep I've been up all night chatting with my son online who is stationed in Greece while dealing with you lovely people.

Good night/morning.

PEACE




[edit on 21-10-2009 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by pieman

Originally posted by SLAYER69
But we don't hold onto the things that divide you.

what, like nationality?? irish-american, african-american, latin-american, asian american, anglo-american, native-american?

i don't believe i've ever spoken to, or heard speak, an american-american.

creed? christian schools, jewish quaters, bible belt.

colour?

yeah right.

language? english, french spanish and portuguese.

ideology, left, right socialists and facists. just becaue you guys don't seem to understand them, doesn't mean you're not divided by them.

what is it you guys have left behind?

I was about to post something similar as, after posting my last post, I was actually struggling to see what "baggage" Slayer has been talking about. A lot of Americans seem to more intent on holding on to ideas about notions about 'blood' than any other country I've come across. Nowhere in the world talks about it the way they do: "I'm 16th Finnish on my mother's side". Why?

I've also wanted to post on the point about the racial divide in America's recent history too but have never been able to phrase it sensitively enough. Yes, racism is a problem in a lot of countries, including my own, but it's nothing like America's recent past and some would argue their present.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
See that's your problem...

You don't get it. It has nothing to to do with a boat or a plane or a century ago or a month ago. We look at Europe as the new comers to the whole United thing. Hell just over 55+ years ago you almost destroyed yourselves.


[edit on 21-10-2009 by SLAYER69]

No, it's you that seems to have a problem: some weird blindspot where America has to do it first, America has to do it bigger, America has to do it better.

You look at Europe as "the new comers to the whole United thing"? Seriously, Slayer? Is this a wind-up? You do realise this Europe you keep going on about has massive history of various Empires, Commonwealths, treaties combined Kingdoms and so on, quite a lot of which existed even before America was founded?

No offence, but you really are beginning to talk bollocks now.