The desire to destroy Christianity

As usual, when the 'fundies' can't win, they quote scripture from the bastardised fiction novel known as "The Bible".

BORING! BORING! BORING!

Come up with a new tactic. Try and think of something that actually uses logic and reason, perhaps even science to justify yourselves. You won't because you can't. So the bible quotes just keep on coming.

I may as well start quoting a cookbook for all the relevance the bible has.

The Para.

reply to post by Psyagra


And the firstborn bare a son, and called his name Moab; the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.

And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.

Ezekiel 25:8-11
Thus says the LORD God; Behold because that Moab and Seir do say, Behold, the house of Judah is like unto all the heathen;

Therefore, behold, I will open the side of Moab from the cities, from his cities which are on his frontiers, the glory of the country, Bethjeshimoth, Baalmeon and Kiriathaim, Unto the men of the east with the Ammonites, and will give them in possession, that the Ammonites may not be remembered among all the nations. And I will execute judgments upon Moab; and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Psalms 60:8
Moab is my washpot; over Edom will I cast out my shoe: Philistia, triumph thou because of me.

Psalms 108:9
Moab is my washpot; over Edom will I cast out my shoe; over Philistia will I triumph.

You have to follow what happens to these nations that were the result of Lot with his daughters.

The promise of the Savior did not come from Lot, it was through Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.

You are correct. You need to know all of the scriptures. Pulling an event out of the Bible without knowing the result of that sin and the LORD God's judgment against it will lead you to further ignorance.

Originally posted by ljib777
reply to post by nik1halo

 

More people have died in the name of a "good" God in one year than have ever been recorded throughout all histroy as having died in the name of the "evil" Satan (not that I'm a Satanist, as that's just another religion).

This statement is exactly what the world leaders want you to believe.
They have used religion to control the masses, but it is a farce. All the wars in the world were not religious orientated. It was all for greed and power. For control. Just like what we are seeing today.

I never said that ALL war was created through religion, just that religion has caused death and pain throughout history, done in the name of "good", whereas hardly any injury has come from the so called satanists in comparison. I'm not saying either are right, I'm saying all are wrong.

The witch trials, the crusades, human sacrifices by the Aztecs etc, the Asian Caste systems, people being stoned to death for blasphemy or heracy, Buddist monks setting themselves on fire, the holocaust, the Taliban, female circumcision, the entire suppression of female rights throughout many religions and regions of the world. These are just a few examples of pain and suffering caused in the name of religion and this is just the widely followed religions. If you include the rapes etc that go on in cult religions, you increase this list exponentially.

I accept that many altruistic acts are also committed by religious groups, but also how many charities are there out there that have no religious connections? Good will is not the soul realm of religion. Neither is evil, but I can bet there would be much less evil in the world without religion to fuel people's instinctive hatred towards each other.

[edit on 21-10-2009 by nik1halo]

reply to post by crmanager


I am from "most secular country" - Czech Republic. I'm not atheist but rather agnostic ie can't imagine experiment, which can prove or disprove God's existance. I can't say if God exists or not, but I can pretty well work with term God and have some common (say western) cultural understanding of this term. In fact if I want study history of my country, then I have to go rather deep into religious studies and christian theology. If your motherland endure about six crusades and few centuries of religious wars, then you just start ask why. Blah ... all western history is unthinkable without proper account of Church and religion affairs at all. So result of this asking:
"Christianity" is ambiguous term/phenomenon which can be explored through many approaches. Acceptance of some Credo - from my point of view - narrow this multitude of conceivable approaches so it is big no no for me. But I really appreciate to chat about God with somebody who know on topic something more then common missionairs of Jehova's witnesses sect. My exemplar of Bible is just by Koran.
In name of Christianity was done lot of good and lot of evil. This "evil" part is one of answers why "others" don't like Christianity. This "evil" we can separate for comfort to two parts: institutional influence on politics and ideology. It's just for comfort, because their are intertwined in their roots. In short: Catholic church proves through history as very ugly/expansive imperial force which is usually in line with visible TPTB. They play together game as two mafia clans. They coexists in symbiosis. Visible TPTB is armored arm of this hydra and (a) church is/was ideological arm. Now this role of ideological arm play MSM usually.
I've sometime really strange feelings about US because religious movements there. It's strange for us in Europe to be stucked in mindset of religious wars. I know that its part of media circus and so on ... But it seems to me soooo totally stupid, out of concept, to go to megachurch. IMHO - existence of megachurches say me something fishy is going there. US "religious right" is something unthinkable in Europe - such rhetoric, as they use, can be useful for us maybe in comedy script. So the picture which US Christianity offers is not much brighter then historical account.
As bystander I think, that religious circles in US use more militant/abusive language, then atheists/agnostics front.

reply to post by stereovoyaged


Humans will always have something to fight about. Culture, color, physical traits... etc. It is our nature. Did you never make fun of other kids in school? Have you never judged someone about something other than religion? I doubt it. Christianity, like ALL religions has fanatics. Ever heard of radical muslim terrorists that want to destroy all other religions and force people to convert to Islam? You will never be able to abolish GOD, no matter how hard you try, because He is in my soul forever.

I haven't heard the entire thread because frankly I don't feel like sitting through 8 pages of drivel from people who don't know anything about Christianity other than what hate websites tell them. The NUMBER 1 reason people hate Christianity is because they can't cope with a belief that requires them to have personal accountability for their actions. This is evidenced by the fact that so many people quote the Bible in a negative light without knowing enough about the circumstances to resolve it properly. Also, anyone who says that Christians are the cause of soooooo many wars and horrors failed History 101.

This might get deleted because of the tone, but I don't care. I'm sick of seeing all the lies and filth from people who proffess to pursue "truth".

reply to post by ljib777


Yawn ...

That has nothing to do with and makes no reference to Lot boinking his daughters or offering them to be raped.

Ezekiel 25 ...

6 For thus says the Lord GOD: Because you have clapped your hands and stamped your feet and rejoiced with all the malice within you against the land of Israel, 7 therefore, behold, I have stretched out my hand against you, and will hand you over as spoil to the nations; and I will cut you off from the peoples and will make you perish out of the countries; I will destroy you.

You cannot clutch at passages here and there and tie them up for your own convenience ... that is NOT keeping things in context ... and then of course, there is a timeline that you conveniently overlook.

I could go on but I really don't intend on getting stuck on arguing about this stuff ... again. All I want is for people to open their eyes and find their own truth - rather than simply accepting what they are told.

Sheesh ... if we are to believe the Bible, then all of creation is only about 6,015 years old ... come on, you don't really believe this do you?

There is no desire to destroy Christianity ... it is busy doing a splendid job all by itself ... oh and as for prophecies that there will be false prophets in the end days ... of course the perpetrators of the lie knew that people would eventually start waking up to the BS and lay it bare for what it is ... so very ingenious of them to 'predict' then that some time in the future people will debunk the Bible.

History repeats itself and I guarantee you that when this Earth goes through another polar shift or some such that pretty much destroys humanity, there will be a few who will start the whole lie over again to gain control of the emerging populace ... because they've seen it in action and it works ... but only for so long

Originally posted by Psyagra
reply to post by ljib777

 

Yawn ...

That has nothing to do with and makes no reference to Lot boinking his daughters or offering them to be raped.

Ezekiel 25 ...

6 For thus says the Lord GOD: Because you have clapped your hands and stamped your feet and rejoiced with all the malice within you against the land of Israel, 7 therefore, behold, I have stretched out my hand against you, and will hand you over as spoil to the nations; and I will cut you off from the peoples and will make you perish out of the countries; I will destroy you.

You cannot clutch at passages here and there and tie them up for your own convenience ... that is NOT keeping things in context ... and then of course, there is a timeline that you conveniently overlook.

I could go on but I really don't intend on getting stuck on arguing about this stuff ... again. All I want is for people to open their eyes and find their own truth - rather than simply accepting what they are told.

Sheesh ... if we are to believe the Bible, then all of creation is only about 6,015 years old ... come on, you don't really believe this do you?

There is no desire to destroy Christianity ... it is busy doing a splendid job all by itself ... oh and as for prophecies that there will be false prophets in the end days ... of course the perpetrators of the lie knew that people would eventually start waking up to the BS and lay it bare for what it is ... so very ingenious of them to 'predict' then that some time in the future people will debunk the Bible.

History repeats itself and I guarantee you that when this Earth goes through another polar shift or some such that pretty much destroys humanity, there will be a few who will start the whole lie over again to gain control of the emerging populace ... because they've seen it in action and it works ... but only for so long

...and what "your" post conveniently overlooks about Lot is that he was in the presence of angels while gay, violent, drunk men were beating down his door in an attempt to ravage them. I'm sure after speaking with his family, the daughters would have decided to follow their fathers advice and protect "messengers from God". As far as him having sex with his daughters....imagine for a moment whatever country you're in just got blown to hell and there's now not a living soul in any of the 5 cities on the plain (something you'd be familiar with if you knew what the story of Lot was about). They thought they were the "last surviving humans in existance". This is backed by the quote, "We have no other man to lay with AS IS THE CUSTOM OVER ALL THE EARTH".

Doesn't sound too far fetched when you put it into perspective.

Also, the daughters had to get him drunk because they knew he wouldn't have agreed to it, but the daughters felt it was their duty to preserve the human race. Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees.


EDIT:

Sheesh ... if we are to believe the Bible, then all of creation is only about 6,015 years old ... come on, you don't really believe this do you.

...yet another falsified generality that the Bible never stated.

[edit on 21-10-2009 by Azuredrake]

reply to post by Azuredrake


"Also, anyone who says that Christians are the cause of soooooo many wars and horrors failed History 101." OK - such sentence is not nonsense, but we can formalize it in another way: idea of Christianity was ideological vehicle for many atrocities. Can you oppose this?

Originally posted by zeddsaid
reply to post by Azuredrake

 

"Also, anyone who says that Christians are the cause of soooooo many wars and horrors failed History 101." OK - such sentence is not nonsense, but we can formalize it in another way: idea of Christianity was ideological vehicle for many atrocities. Can you oppose this?

If I understand what you're asking, then I oppose that view as well, as most wars and atrocities are carried out through the ideological pursuit of power, land, governance, wealth and revenge. These are directly opposite to the teaching of Christianity which call for a humble existance.

I wonder how many wars were "avoided" because the ruler was acting like a Christian.

LOL ... I lied ... I actually enjoy engaging people in this kind of conversation ... so lets carry on then ...

Angels huh? ... And they need Lot to protect them from gays and drunken violent people by offering his two virgin daughters in their stead?!

It was not an entire country that was nuked ... it was two cities - and not very big ones at that.

Pray tell ... how did anyone know that they got him drunk ... that he would have refused if sober (remember he offered them to be raped by the heathens you describe so eloquently) ... who documented or told this story on? ... the girls? ... couldn't have been Lot because he was too drunk to remember - right? (Excuse me but I can't help wondering how he got it up in that state ... s'pose its not completely impossible though)

They new full well that they were not the only people left on the planet ... they knew, for example, that Abraham and his buddies were still around ... oh, and lets not forget the village/city that Lot asked the "angels" to spare ... no?

Its amazing how, when one highlights double standards like these in the Bible, that defenders pop out to justify the very actions that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for. How strong that sense of fear is that the church instills if you dare question ... rather cover it up with all manner of illogical justifications than say "Haaaaang on just one minute!!"

reply to post by Azuredrake


Talking about the suggestion that if the Bible were true, then all of creation is only about 6,015 years old ... give or take a few years of course ... its simple really ... follow the genealogy and do the math ... or just look it up on any "reputable" site who has done the math for you.

Just as water and oil do not mix, so too Christianity and the Jews do not mix with the world. Christians and Jews believe in one supreme God Creator to whom we are accountable for what we do. The world does not accept this view because the world is not of God but of Satan, whom is the god of this world.

Therefore, it is the sincere desire for the world to rid itself once and for all of the Christian and the Jew. Now the world will make excuses and say that they wish no harm to either and that they don't spew hate but that would be a self deception and a lie. They hate because they are wrong in their own actions and are convicted by the mere presence of the light, and then condemned for their rejection of it.

So don't be dismayed at the hate, it is what Jesus said would happen. Soon they will attempt to mass exterminate both groups, the Jew and the Christian because the world is dark and getting darker by the day. True evil is about to rise to such power as the world has never seen before. It will be seen as the moral correctness and we Christians shall be treated as were the Jews under Nazi Germany.

Look at it as another sign of the last days upon us, and know that they cannot win.

[edit on 21-10-2009 by Fromabove]

wait...whats wrong with Christians who aren't conservative?

My big problem with religion (not the belief in god, I don't believe in God, but I can't deny the existence of clubs), is that although they preach tolerance, acceptance, and welcoming with open arms...very few actually practice this and find it much more accommodating to their needs to be intolerant and exclusionary.

Oh also differences in religion are responsible for countless deaths through history all the way up to today.

reply to post by beefytee


Intolerance is not a bad word. It is a matter of conviction. I don't tolerate murder, hate, stealing, etc. Christians (the real ones) do not tolerate sin they convict it for what it is. Christians should never think intolerance is a bad thing. It leads to compromise and selling yourself to this present evil world.

Originally posted by Azuredrake
I haven't heard the entire thread because frankly I don't feel like sitting through 8 pages of drivel from people who don't know anything about Christianity other than what hate websites tell them. The NUMBER 1 reason people hate Christianity is because they can't cope with a belief that requires them to have personal accountability for their actions. This is evidenced by the fact that so many people quote the Bible in a negative light without knowing enough about the circumstances to resolve it properly. Also, anyone who says that Christians are the cause of soooooo many wars and horrors failed History 101.

This might get deleted because of the tone, but I don't care. I'm sick of seeing all the lies and filth from people who proffess to pursue "truth".

If you cannot take the time to read the entire thread and all the information and different view/arguments/opinions and questions presented in it, then please don't try and solve all previous 8 pages with your post. I have plenty of personal accountability becase I answer to myself and the law. If anything christians have no accountibilty because God is above the law and anything done can simply be forgiven. Rape? Sorry God, forgiven. Murder? Sorry God, forgiven. I don't quote the bible for any purpose as I see it as a story of fiction, when I quote a book in order to give proof of something, I tend to use something with a bit more credibility to it, like an encyclopedia.

Ok, so apparently I'll have to do your "research" for you.

Originally posted by Psyagra
Angels huh? ... And they need Lot to protect them from gays and drunken violent people by offering his two virgin daughters in their stead?!

It was only until Lot granted hospitality to the two angels did he in fact learn they were angels sent to destroy the place and grant Lot refuge in Zoar. With their salvation in the hands of the angels, who in their right mind would let them be violated sexually by a drunk, gay, angry mob? Offering his daughters would have been the most logical thing to do. Two things about this as well: There's nothing to say that this wasn't an empty gesture anyway since Lot knew the men were gay. There's nothing to say hat Lot never had the consent of his daughters before hand either. One who's looking to discredit the Bible however would just gloss over these ideas.
Also, you say this and quote angels underneath as if to say that they weren't expressly stated as being angels with Lot in the bible. Why do you do this?

It was not an entire country that was nuked ... it was two cities - and not very big ones at that.

It was 4 cities. Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim. It would have been 5 (Zoar) had it not been for Lot's pleading to save any righteous men still living there. This place was known as the Pentapolis. ..and yes, it was large enough that people MIGRATED there to raise families and live out the rest of their days.

Pray tell ... how did anyone know that they got him drunk ... that he would have refused if sober (remember he offered them to be raped by the heathens you describe so eloquently) ... who documented or told this story on? ... the girls? ... couldn't have been Lot because he was too drunk to remember - right? (Excuse me but I can't help wondering how he got it up in that state ... s'pose its not completely impossible though)

Complete straw man.

They new full well that they were not the only people left on the planet ... they knew, for example, that Abraham and his buddies were still around ... oh, and lets not forget the village/city that Lot asked the "angels" to spare ... no?

Abraham and Lot were at odds with each other. Abraham seperated himself from Lot because Lot turned his mind to worldy possessions instead of living by faith. While Abraham ventured to where God lead him, Lot went to Sodom because he saw with his own eyes that it pleased him for the land was fertile and well watered. Perhaps I should have worded it better in that the daugters felt it was their duty to perserve their family line, if not repopulate the region (again, you're underestimating the destruction).
The village Lot asked to spare was Zoar. It was on the list for destruction, but Lot's only plea was that he have somewhere to go and that any righteous man still living there be saved. No doubt there is an alterior motive in that Lot, not truly living by faith, wanted to stay in the area of fertile land. Lot however, (much like you) underestimated the destruction and ended up living in a cave to get away from the people of Zoar since they were originally as sinful as the rest.

Its amazing how, when one highlights double standards like these in the Bible, that defenders pop out to justify the very actions that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for. How strong that sense of fear is that the church instills if you dare question ... rather cover it up with all manner of illogical justifications than say "Haaaaang on just one minute!!"

I find it more amazing that people with no "working" knowledge of the Bible and what it entails, even attempts to explain anything about it.


"A greebolwok was killed while trunjugattling a horrifsteltler, for woggleraftting a quidliggerton". - Can you tell me if this is a bad thing? No. If you could study to tell me, would you? ..still no.

Originally posted by stereovoyaged

Originally posted by Azuredrake
I haven't heard the entire thread because frankly I don't feel like sitting through 8 pages of drivel from people who don't know anything about Christianity other than what hate websites tell them. The NUMBER 1 reason people hate Christianity is because they can't cope with a belief that requires them to have personal accountability for their actions. This is evidenced by the fact that so many people quote the Bible in a negative light without knowing enough about the circumstances to resolve it properly. Also, anyone who says that Christians are the cause of soooooo many wars and horrors failed History 101.

This might get deleted because of the tone, but I don't care. I'm sick of seeing all the lies and filth from people who proffess to pursue "truth".

If you cannot take the time to read the entire thread and all the information and different view/arguments/opinions and questions presented in it, then please don't try and solve all previous 8 pages with your post. I have plenty of personal accountability becase I answer to myself and the law. If anything christians have no accountibilty because God is above the law and anything done can simply be forgiven. Rape? Sorry God, forgiven. Murder? Sorry God, forgiven. I don't quote the bible for any purpose as I see it as a story of fiction, when I quote a book in order to give proof of something, I tend to use something with a bit more credibility to it, like an encyclopedia.

I'm not attempting to solve the last 8 pages. I'm giving my response to the OP's opinion.

Also, saying that Christians have no accoutability because it can just be forgiving is another gross generalized notion NOT supported by the Bible. Born through not having a "working" knowledge of what it says.

Christians are closer to fascists than they are liberals, which is why people dislike them.

The Catholic church has been telling poor people that they can't use condoms, despite rampant aids epidemic. In the mean time, they have been covering up pedophilia rape amongst their staff, while shouting that "the rest of the world has turned on its head."

Right, it's the progressive, free thinking, non-crazy realists who are ruining the world. Not the dark age, magical-minded, faith loving whacko's in big white dresses with funny hats who claim to know the mind of god who are ruining the world.


I mean, I could go on. Every religion is freaking crazy like that. Look at the mormons. Look at scientologists. Look at hasidic jews. Look at muslims. The list just goes on and on.

Religion is for weak minded people who need a crutch in life, and would rather be controlled by a master than live free.

reply to post by Kaytagg


Oh really? So why have so many countries which have tried to ditch religion fallen flat on their face?