No one is innocent but we Christans didn't do it

Why do people keep bringing up the crusades and the witch trials? These people were not Christian in the sense they did not follow Christ's teachings. You must, like I said follow christ and his teachings to be a Christian.
The way I see it is like this. If I walk around with a name tag that says I am christian does that make me a christian. No of coarse not right. Now image a whole herd of us with these name tags doing things in the name christianity, like killing and conquering. Now people see there tags and say hey they are christians that are killing and conquering. How do I know, because they claim they are christian. But wait aren't christian's those who follow christ teaching. So if your not following christ then you are not christian. Get it...

Before people label they should analyze what they are labeling.

Imagine a Christian as a farmer.
If the farmer grows crops and tends to them he is considered a farmer.
Now if that farmer quits farming he is no longer a farmer right, but if he goes around still calling himself a farmer is he still considered a farmer???

it doesnt matter. when the crusades were taking place, they did it in the name of christ as christians, to further christianity and destroy other religions.

whether or not you think that they acted in a good christian manner is not important, because anyone can see that it was wrong. the fact is the OP said that christians were not involved and tried to blame the crusades on catholics, when it was a christian endeavor.

reply to post by Key2life

These people were not Christian in the sense they did not follow Christ's teachings. You must, like I said follow christ and his teachings to be a Christian.

God's command supersedes that of Jesus.

Now if that farmer quits farming he is no longer a farmer right, but if he goes around still calling himself a farmer is he still considered a farmer???

Well, unfortunately that's not what's happening here. They still believe in Jesus as the Messiah, but they are also listening to God as they should be doing. Jesus never said "And Ye shalt stop listening to thy lord and follow me instead!".

Originally posted by grover
Sorry but both Catholics and Puritans are properly considered Christians whether you like it or not.

You're wrong, Catholics practice Catholicism, Christians practice Christianity, it's not the WORDS the Catholics use for themselves, but the actions they do that determines where their hearts/worship is.

Christians believe in faith only as justification, Catholics believe in faith + works. Christians believe sins can only be forgiven by God, Catholics believe sins can be absolved by man. Catholics believe in Infant Baptism, Christians hold that baptism is only for a believer and non-Christians should not be baptized.

I could take up 2 pages pointing out the difference between Catholicism and Christianity, but for this thread the matters are salvation.

The father of the inquisition was Augustine, a Roman Catholic. the people killed in the inquisitions were Christians. The church who carried out the crusades was the Roman Catholics.

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by grover

 

They're lumped into the Christian fold by those that aren't Christians. Protestant Christians tend to not consider Catholics Christian because of unbiblical practices. Catholics would say that I, who you would call a Christian, truly am not because I'm not part of the Catholic Church and not in communion with them.

Sorry this is in fact incorrect except from a tribal political viewpoint. This argument is raised to justify the existence of the Protestant movement, and that's fine, but there has never been disagreement about what it means to be a Christian.

Theologically a Christian is a person who agrees to the Apostles Creed. Every Christian denomination I know of officially recognizes this as the fundamental definition of a Christian (that is actually a circular argument). There are several versions, with rather trivial (IMO) differences.

Here is the Methodist version:

I believe in God the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth;

And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord:
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
the third day he rose from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

And the Roman Catholic version:

1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
5. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.
6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
8. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
10. the forgiveness of sins,
11. the resurrection of the body,
12. and the life everlasting.
Amen.

You can see that these are virtually identical, meaning that the Protestant (Methodist) and the Roman Catholic definitions of what a Christian is identical. The differences mainly revolve around the wording of the concept of the Trinity. This concept evolved over many years and there have been many heated debates around the exact wording.

You may personally choose to reject this definition in favor of a more personal definition, or you may be a member of a religious organization that rejects this definition in favor of their own institutionally accepted definition. If you do, however, you are simply not a Christian, but a member of a sect or possibly a cult. I don't know of any of 'mainstream' denominations that reject the Apostles' Creed, but I can imagine that some of the 'fringe' denominations downplay or ignore it.

That is not meant to be derogatory to anyone who rejects the Apostles' Creed, just that this 'legal' definition of a Christian has been around for almost 2000 years and it is much too late to object to it. This problem is not new, and is not unique to the Christian world. Sufis consider themselves Muslims, but 'mainstream' Muslims consider them as infidels.

Originally posted by the siren

Hi the Siren/

Catholics are technically not Christians because they pray to saints and believe that a priest can absolve them of their sins, whereas the Christian Bible states that the only way to salvation is through Christ.

Catholic means 'Universal' and the Roman Catholics are Christians!
What the high powers do does not nessasarily mean that all the people are also corrupted, as each will be personally judged according to their own,be it ignorance of the truth!
The Crusades is another story,which I wont go into here.
The Prayers of Saints are Scripture based and a valid in the Old and New Testament!
In Acts we read...And when they had ordained them presbyters in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commanded them to the ord on whom they believed''(Acts 14,23)
''And when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them''(Acts 6,6;13,3)
This was also carried on from the Old Testament...
''If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work''(1Timothy 3,1)
Of-course the priests are guilty of their own actions and must look at the position they hold...''Wherefore, bretheran,look ye out among you seven men of honest report''(Act 6,3)...eg/being men of honest report,faithful worthy to hold this position of priesthood.


The forgiveness of Sins,which literally means to break away,a seperation of God and man because the Original sin caused a 'Spiritual death and a Physical death,In the Old Tetstament in Gods very own words 'The imagination of man is intently bent upon evil things from his youth''(Genesis 8,21)and in the New Testament tragic battle between good and evil..I know that in me........O wretched man that I am!who shall deliver from the body of this death'' (Romans 7, 18-24)..And one from the French poet Racine who was inspired by the Apostles words......
''My God, what a fearful war rages within me!
I see two different persons in me:
The one enflames my soul my soul with God-like zeal;
The other opposes Your Holy Will
And makes me trample upon Your divine Commandments''

Another ''All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God''(Romans 3,23)
''As by one man(Adam)sin entered into the World, and death by sin,(physical death of the body)and so death passed upon all men(bodily death all experience),for that all have sinned''(Romans 5, 12)
In Psalms a wonderful Psalm to be read regularily...'For behold I was concieved in iniquities and in sins did my mother concieve me''(Psalm 50,5)
And Job aware of sin says...''Who is pure from uncleaness''? and answers himself ''Not even one;if even his life should be one day upon the earth''(Job 14,4-5)
Saint John the Apostle''That which is born of flesh is flesh''(John 3,6)...which means that Baptism is needed to put on a new body and let the Old one go.
The Lord Jesus Christ established the Sacrement of confession and it is not a man made tradition of Christianity...
''Whatsoever thou shalts bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven;and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven''(Mathew 16, 19)
And later after Jesus Christs Resurrection grantingall His Disciples the Holy Spirit He said ''Receive ye the Holy Ghost:whose soever sins ye retain,they are retained''(John 20, 22-23)
The pwer of Forgiveness come from Jesus Christ as He is the Head of the Church that He set up on earth...


I also believe that many who say they are Christians are not truly Christians,it may be by name alone, but Jesus Christ never alowe violence to solve problems.
The Priests have a duty to perform....this also was instituted by Jesus Christ Himself as He chose the first 12 Apostles to testify to His teachings and continue down to our generation...
We are all called to be Saints ''His Saints that are in His land the Lord has magnified''(PSALM 15,3)
We call on the help of Saints because no one that dies is dead , but is alive with the Lord as Scripture states!
I guess as we are all human and we have all made mistakes and continue to do so... we can only pray and be good to one another and stop blaming others as much,but rather look at our own faults and take it from there...

Sorry for being all over the place...hope that makes sense!

ICXC NIKA
helen

reply to post by NOTurTypical

You're wrong, Catholics practice Catholicism, Christians practice Christianity, it's not the WORDS the Catholics use for themselves, but the actions they do that determines where their hearts/worship is.

Actually, your wrong. Christianity is a belief in Christ as the Messiah. In fact, there are many different forms of Christian belief and practice that are not all the same in form, but all hold that same basic principle of belief in Jesus.

The LIST of different denominations of Christian belief is actually quiet long. The only two Houses God talks about in the Messianic prophecies don't include anything about Christianity or it's beliefs and practices.

Christians believe in faith only as justification, Catholics believe in faith + works. Christians believe sins can only be forgiven by God, Catholics believe sins can be absolved by man.

Catholic Christianity get's this belief from a few scriptures in the bible, it's just a different interpretation just as all the different denominations have their own special beliefs based upon difference in interpretation.

Catholics believe in Infant Baptism, Christians hold that baptism is only for a believer and non-Christians should not be baptized.

Actually, that interpretation is based only upon the fact that no infants are explicitly baptized in the bible, but then again the Christian belief in a second coming is also born from the lack of explicit prophecies in regard to how many 'comings' there are supposed to be.

I could take up 2 pages pointing out the difference between Catholicism and Christianity, but for this thread the matters are salvation.

Same can be said about Christianity, including Catholicism as a form of in regards to the two houses that should only be in existence right now as per biblical prophecy.

The father of the inquisition was Augustine, a Roman Catholic. the people killed in the inquisitions were Christians. The church who carried out the crusades was the Roman Catholics.

LINK

Originally posted by Avenginggecko
...
In fact, I don't believe a modern government had specifically addressed the matter of seperation of Church and State until the Magna Carta and the US Constitution.
...

The Magna Carta didn't have anything at all to do with separation of Church and State. The Magna Carta was all about maintaining the power of the Aristocracy as a counter to the power of the King.

There was a dispute at the time about the appointment of the Archbishop of Canterbury, and the King was forced to back down. Clause 1 of the Magna Carta guarantees the 'freedom of the Church of England' from further interference from by the King, (the Pope reserved that privilege). But the Church remained the official Established church and laws could and did discriminate against non-Christians. Hardly separation of Church and State.

When Henry VIII split from Rome, he Established the Church of England. Even though most of the Magna Carta has been repealed in the last 150 years, including Clause 1, the King (that is, currently the Queen) is still head of that officially Established Church of England.. The King's (Queen's) official title in this role is specifically: Supreme Governor of the Church of England. The Supreme Governor formally appoints high-ranking members of the church on the advice of the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, who is in turn advised by church leaders. Hardly separation of Church and State.

Even though religious freedom is recognized in law, the C of E is still the official state church, laws can and do discriminate in favor of the C of E. Until very recently, the King (Queen) was not allowed to marry a Catholic.

reply to post by sirnex


It appears you are assuming you know what I believe, "religion" has never saved a single soul and is a highway to hell, religion is a set of "dos" and "dont's", I'm not in a SINGLE denomination, they are born of man, doctrines of men the Galatians tells us to avoid.

Justification is by faith alone, not of works so that no man can boast. Only a personal relationship with the Lord can save a man, only the Lord can forgive me of my sins, you are 100% correct though, infant baptism is nowhere in the Bible, therefore it is a doctrine of man... it's not in the Word of God.

Look at the thief on the cross, was he baptized? Did he pay title? Did he promise Jesus to turn from his sins? Did he go to communion? Did he confess his sins? Did he pray to Mary? What did the thief say? "Lord, remember me when you go to the father."

he 1. acknowledged Jesus is the Son of God, (god manifested in the flesh), and 2. realized Jesus alone to save him. And Jesus said, 'Veerily I say unto thee, that thou shalt be with me today in paradise."

I'm 100% against "religion", it's a doctrine of works and lordship salvation that comes straight from the devil, we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ alone, we as sinners need God's grace and mercy, and if we claim there is no sin in us then we are a "liar and the truth is not in us."

reply to post by NOTurTypical

It appears you are assuming you know what I believe, "religion" has never saved a single soul and is a highway to hell, religion is a set of "dos" and "dont's", I'm not in a SINGLE denomination, they are born of man, doctrines of men the Galatians tells us to avoid.

God talks of salvation to the Houses of Judah and Israel, do you atleast belong to one of them?

Justification is by faith alone, not of works so that no man can boast. Only a personal relationship with the Lord can save a man, only the Lord can forgive me of my sins, you are 100% correct though, infant baptism is nowhere in the Bible, therefore it is a doctrine of man... it's not in the Word of God.

Correct, God did say salvation was only through *him* alone. Not through Jesus.

I'm 100% against "religion", it's a doctrine of works and lordship salvation that comes straight from the devil, we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ alone, we as sinners need God's grace and mercy, and if we claim there is no sin in us then we are a "liar and the truth is not in us."

Jesus never fulfilled the prophecies, and God does warn you about following false prophets like Jesus. God also said he would give Lucifer his followers, Jews who are not Jews, which are Christians, or more aptly, those who follow Jesus the Jew, but are not Jews themselves. Stop following a false prophet.

TYPICAL YANK!!!... I know that history is no longer taught in the USA. But please read some books .

Crusades - Were CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS! They wore the cross. My local church is from 1050 ad . Sir Ludham of Lowdham and his Minions were all Crhistian, The Catholic church of that period was not the institution you see today. It was mainly the Crusades that sporned modern day catholosism.

The inquisition - Christians murders 000's in the middle ages because they were witchs and evil. Christians used to dip women in a pond, if they drowned they were good and went to heaven , if they floated, they were fished out and killed because if they float it means they have the devil in them.

The USA is the most violent, corrupt, disfunctioning, murderous, Racist, poisoned place on Earth, and your mostly Christian....which does not say a lot about your deffence.

I could go on here but its clear you need education. Go get one. Come back and pick up the discussion.

For the record. Christianity is a great thing, along with Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, hinduism....its just the People that Practice Them who get it all nuts.

I could go on but its clear you have some research to do to get your facts right before spouting crap.

TYPICAL YANK!!!... I know that history is no longer taught in the USA. But please read some books .

Crusades - Were CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS! They wore the cross. My local church is from 1050 ad . Sir Ludham of Lowdham and his Minions were all Crhistian, The Catholic church of that period was not the institution you see today. It was mainly the Crusades that sporned modern day catholosism.

The inquisition - Christians murders 000's in the middle ages because they were witchs and evil. Christians used to dip women in a pond, if they drowned they were good and went to heaven , if they floated, they were fished out and killed because if they float it means they have the devil in them.

The USA is the most violent, corrupt, disfunctioning, murderous, Racist, poisoned place on Earth, and your mostly Christian....which does not say a lot about your deffence.

I could go on here but its clear you need education. Go get one. Come back and pick up the discussion.

For the record. Christianity is a great thing, along with Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, hinduism....its just the People that Practice Them who get it all nuts.

I could go on but its clear you have some research to do to get your facts right before spouting crap.

whenever someone says "christians" did this or that, 1000 years ago or whatever, i just offer the atheist challenge: prove it. prove it prove it prove it. you need less evidence to call millions of people over 2000 years horrible things, than you do to believe we all came from monkeys.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by grover
Sorry but both Catholics and Puritans are properly considered Christians whether you like it or not.

You're wrong, Catholics practice Catholicism, Christians practice Christianity, it's not the WORDS the Catholics use for themselves, but the actions they do that determines where their hearts/worship is.

Christians believe in faith only as justification, Catholics believe in faith + works. Christians believe sins can only be forgiven by God, Catholics believe sins can be absolved by man. Catholics believe in Infant Baptism, Christians hold that baptism is only for a believer and non-Christians should not be baptized.

I could take up 2 pages pointing out the difference between Catholicism and Christianity, but for this thread the matters are salvation.

The father of the inquisition was Augustine, a Roman Catholic. the people killed in the inquisitions were Christians. The church who carried out the crusades was the Roman Catholics.

You are assigning arbitrary labels to groups to serve your own purpose. It does your argument no favors to try to deny the defining similarity between the two groups you are discussing. One group are Roman Catholic Christians and the other is Protestant Christians. There are differences between these groups on politics and specifics of theology, but they are identical in their belief in Christ and adherence to the Apostles Creed.

Your assertion should be: "Catholics practice Catholicism, Protestants practice Protestantism". There are significant theological differences, but both are Christians. To deny this fact is to render your opinions mere bigotry and not worthy of consideration.

The people tortured and killed in the various Inquisitions were Christians, principally Roman Catholic but also Orthodox Catholic, Jews, Muslims, and Pagans. The perpetrators were indeed Roman Catholic, and indeed the office of the Inquisition exists to this day and the current Pope was its head for many years.

But Roman Catholics are not the only group of Christians who committed torture and murder to fight heresy. Certainly Catholics were persecuted mercilessly in England after the C of E split with Rome. And Protestants have never shirked an opportunity to be murderously intolerant of heresy and militantly intolerant of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Africans and any other 'inferior race'. More information detailing the Protestant use of the Inquisition or at least its methodology for its own purposes can be found at this link.

As the saying goes: people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Edit: After writing this I realized there was a blind spot in my reasoning too. I understand that you are probably coming from a Restorationist point of view (LDS probably?). So you would consider Protestants as Catholics too? And they all are using the term Christian incorrectly because they don't follow Christianity as restored by Smith (or someone else if you are a non-LDS Restorationist?).

I can understand your terminology from that point of view, but unless you make that clear to folks, you are just making silly statements for the sake of argument. It is just a little bit unfair, I think, you are debating two different things, and only you know it. People like me miss the point of your discussion and waste time writing up stuff like the above that does not address your point in the way you meant it. Poor form on your part, I think.

[edit on 16/10/2009 by rnaa]

reply to post by rnaa

people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones

ditto. because regardless of your belief system, you are part of the problem, just like everyone else on the planet. this is an equal opportunity planet. we believe firmly in the idea of forcing other people in various ways, to agree with our understanding of this that and the other thing. and if you don't, too bad, you'll get it anyway. like we are currently in the "point at science book" age, where all truth doth cometh from yon science book. no evidence, just cause they said so and you have to believe them because they are scientists.

it's okay, science has already killed a few billion people too. more than welcome to the honor roll of the equal opportunity planet, where we all get the chance to prove we don't know what in the sam hill we are doing but think we do anyway! even if it means we have to blow your head off! and your little dog's too!

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

You're wrong, Catholics practice Catholicism, Christians practice Christianity, it's not the WORDS the Catholics use for themselves, but the actions they do that determines where their hearts/worship is.

Catholics practice Catholicism, Protestants practice Protestantism, Orthodoxes practice Orthodoxy. But it's all "Christianity", and Protestantism is derived from Catholicism.

Christians believe in faith only as justification, Catholics believe in faith + works.

No, some Protestants believe in faith only as justification. Other Christians do not.

Christians believe sins can only be forgiven by God, Catholics believe sins can be absolved by man.

No, they just believe that God has given some men authority to absolve sin (which is indeed mentioned in the scriptures).

Catholics believe in Infant Baptism, Christians hold that baptism is only for a believer and non-Christians should not be baptized.

Many Protestants also practice infant baptism. Anglicans, Episcopalians, and Lutherans, for example.

reply to post by Masonic Light


wrongo. don't make me come into the mason threads and start telling you what you believe or don't believe.

a person who is a christian (no matter the denomination) follows the teachings of JESUS CHRIST *(yeshua) not king, queen, president, or pope. They can agree with the teachings of someone other than YESHUA, but if that teaching is against the teachings of YESHUA, then they aren't practicing christianity if they follow that teaching. like when i go to the bathroom, i'm not practicing christianity. when i say a potty word, i'm not practicing christianity. when i get in my car and drive, i'm not practicing christianity. and when i decorate my yule tide tree i'm not practicing christianity. i'm just doing STUFF. stuff does not equal christianity.

e-freakin-gads.

reply to post by the siren


You should do your homework before making statements like this...

In a United Nations World Conference Against Racism document there are the words: "In the fifteenth century, two Papal Bulls set the stage for European domination of the New World and Africa. Romanus Pontifex, issued by Pope Nicholas V to King Alfonso V of Portugal in 1452, declared war against all non-Christians throughout the world, and specifically sanctioned and promoted the conquest, colonization, and exploitation of non-Christian nations and their territories." This document also declares: "….the subjugation of the native peoples of the New World was legally sanctioned. ‘Laws’ of ‘discovery’, ‘conquest’ and ‘terra nullius’ made up the ‘doctrines of dispossession’…" "These doctrines allowed Christian nations to claim ‘unoccupied lands’ (terra nullius), or lands belonging to ‘heathens’ or ‘pagans’."

In the 1823 U.S.A. Supreme Court ruling Johnson v. M’Intosh, Associate Justice Joseph Story, who was on the Supreme Court at the time of the Johnson ruling, published a book in which he drew a specific connection between Christianity, the pope (the Vatican) and the ”principle” of ”discovery” adopted by the Supreme Court. And, around this same time, Supreme Court Judge John Marshall also identified the Christian doctrine of discovery behind the Johnson ruling…revealing that the Israelites’ Old Testament directed mission "to destroy or rule other nations with a rod of iron" was (by a misunderstanding of the New Testament directive) turned over to Christians, as God’s new Israelites,” who, according to Romans 2: 29, were "inwardly Jews", (they being white Europeans) wrongly believing that they had a ”God-given right and mission ” to colonize (conquer, subdue and possess) the lands of the red indigenous nations and peoples (the new Canaanites), who were not "inwardly Jews" (Christians) at the time of their discovery by the ethic cleansing and genocidal war-mongering white European Christian imperialists and colonists, who became white Euro-America Christians with the same evil intentions.

"A number of inferences follow from the Chosen People-Promised Land model (e.g., Deuteronomy 20:10 - 18) such as, indigenous peoples are to be removed (e.g., Indian Removal Act), put into a condition of servitude (e.g., enslavement of the Indians of California in the Spanish-Catholic missions), exterminated to make room for the chosen people of the United States (e.g., massacres at Sand Creek and Wounded Knee, spreading deadly deceases, including the decease of alcoholism) - a decease that is still destroying many indigenous peoples.

The population figures for the New World prior to the 1492 voyage of Christopher Columbus are unknown. Estimates based on archaeological data and written records from European settlers range from as low as 8 million to as many as 112 million indigenous "Native Americans". This was hardly what anyone could call empty lands just waiting for some White European Christian colonists to come along and lay claim too...

reply to post by rnaa

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,

hey i've seen weslyen methodist creed thingy and there's no
holy catholic church mentioned in it.

reply to post by undo


Wrongo yourself cupcake. Christianity as a whole is the belief that Jesus was the Messiah, the different denominations arise from differences in interpretation of God's word. IDK why Christians can't learn their own faith.