No one is innocent but we Christans didn't do it

reply to post by sirnex


oh dear. tis a challenge to me intellect! i haven't studied the bible! i know nothing about ancient history! i have no clue what the difference is between doing STUFF and practicing CHRISTIANITY.

you can do stuff all day, doesn't mean you're practicing what yeshua taught. it just means you're doing stuff. saying hail marys or practicing karate, are not examples of practicing christianity. it's stuff doing. it's simple! stuff here, yeshua there. two different things. it's okay to do some stuff, not okay to do other stuff. but all in all, stuff is just that ...STUFF.

i don't understand what's so hard about this:

1. read what yeshua teaches.

2. compare it to what people do in various religions and non-religions.

3. think about the difference.

4. realize it's not yeshua's fault that people are, as a general rule, silly

5. now think about big governments, like empires. compare what big empires do vs. what yeshua taught. see the difference? i know most of us can see the difference.

so where's the problem? i can tell ya! empires suck and people are silly.

and you're welcome. any time you need something else clarified, just ask

reply to post by undo


Wow, you don't like reading do you? First of all, God's word supersedes the word of a false prophet or even the Messiah if he ever does show up. Regardless of what Jesus taught, whom failed to heed his own teachings, God's law is always above what Jesus says. God never said you can reach salvation through the Messiah either, that is another Christian invention essentially no different then praying to the saints. Seriously man, read your bible.

reply to post by sirnex


that a challenge?

you don't want me to quote scripture to prove ya wrong, do ya?
cause i really don't want to do that, since i know you don't believe it anyway lol
that'd be like, oh, arguing with a wall. i don't argue with walls.

reply to post by undo


Go ahead, you get your bible and I'll grab mine. This should prove fun.

second line.

People still actually believe that rapture nonsense? I am a believer, close to God if you will, and there is no Rapture. The rapture is man-made, more of satan's lies.

It was the Christians who put the people in power to commit the atrocities against humankind. Thus it is actually the Christians fault. I am not saying that Christians wanted what has occurred, just that they were the force that allowed it to happen. I believe most Christians truly try to be good people and it is not all Christians that side with the far right. Those that do, somehow just can't understand that the overall philosophy of the right clearly goes against the teachings of Jesus. The right uses Old Testament ideals (fear, wrath, suffering, etc) while Christians should be focused instead on new Testament Ideals (peace, love, joy, etc.). If Christians could just understand the true message of Jesus Christ, the world would be a better place.

reply to post by the siren


Despite what you may want to believe, Catholics are Christians and anything stating otherwise is a modern fallacy.

Catholics do not pray to saints, saints are asked for additional prayers to pray with Catholics to God, the only being worthy and deserving of prayer and worship is God.

The act of confession was implemented by Jesus in John 20:21-23 He bestowed upon His apostles the ability to forgive sin in the name of the Father. Just as today many Christians claim to be apostles of Christ, so do Priests. And since Catholic tradition (which I am aware you will most likely not accept) states it was founded by Christ the Priests retain this ability.

The crusades in general is a very long topic which I will not delve too far into, but quickly, the main purpose was to maintain and regain control of the Holy Sepulchre.

I think it would be beneficial for you to look up the great schism, and follow the Christian religion family tree

I won't touch on the witch trials, as I haven't looked much into that topic.

I'm not raising an eyebrow at the mid east comments. Modern evangelical christians are seriously helping to finance the ongoing atrocities while claiming that the survival of the state of Israel is of utmost importance to them and they are bound by God to defend it.

Originally posted by DaddyBare

 

"A number of inferences follow from the Chosen People-Promised Land model (e.g., Deuteronomy 20:10 - 18) such as, indigenous peoples are to be removed (e.g., Indian Removal Act), put into a condition of servitude (e.g., enslavement of the Indians of California in the Spanish-Catholic missions), exterminated to make room for the chosen people of the United States (e.g., massacres at Sand Creek and Wounded Knee, spreading deadly deceases, including the decease of alcoholism) - a decease that is still destroying many indigenous peoples.

I for one am glad you mentioned the treatment of indigenous peoples across the world at the hands of religious 'missionaries'

In early 'Australia' is was common for indigenous people to retreat to churches as these were one of the few places where they weren't hunted by settlers. Often these churches were built on tradionally sacred sites.

Later on it was government policy to forcibly remove 'half-caste' children from their families and place them into missions where it was forbidden for them to speak their language and they were taught to be good 'christians'.

This, and more, is all well documented and done with the genuine intent.
here is a song about it.

reply to post by sirnex


take it to u2u then, cause this thread is about atrocities and are you SURE you want to talk about this? cause ya know the thing where it says "if'n they don't want to hear it, brush the dust off and walk away"? i think that's a wise thing...apparently some o' the past guys didn't think so, cause like, they didn't read the bible. well, to be fair, they couldn't, cause it was written in latin, chained to a wall in the basement, and off limits. glad that's outta the way now though, although it does create a few problems for officialdom

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by undo

 

Go ahead, you get your bible and I'll grab mine. This should prove fun.

second line.

BIBLE FIGHT!!!

I call dibs on the new Bible that's being edited for those Conservatives who don't like all that liberal bias in "God's Book"!

Yeah, you might as well be arguing Star Wars canonization all the good it'll do. None of you who argue scripture in defense of your particular flavor of religion are honestly and objectively looking for the truth at the present time. You won't, because your religion forbids it and praises blind faith.

The Vatican has only recently acknowledged Darwin's theory, and apologized to Galileo. Why? Because they began with a presupposition they felt strongly that they could not falsify. For many still it doesn't matter if god came down in the metaphorical flesh and tried to set you straight on the matter - you will not accept it, and simply write any discordance with your religion off as trickery by Satan or Aliens or the anti-Christ or whatever.

As Answers in Genesis puts it:

By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record. ~ Statement of Faith: Article 4, Point 6.

... and so, for many Christians who admonish others of idolatry, they have themselves become idolers. Whether "inspired" or not, your bibles were transcribed, translated, arranged, printed, and sold by human hands. Thus, and objects created by the hands of men, which depend upon the hands of men to be published and preached, become more important than the very Creator himself.

I would agree with Paine, that if there is a creator god (and I think there is), the creation (the natural world) then is the ONLY the very Creation itself which is the truest word of god. We have remarkably little capacity to chance the nature of the universe's features, and no power to change it's function. How can one make any claims about the power of a creator god which the overwhelming (or all of it, if you prefer) weight of objective evidence is against.

One stumbling block for many, I think, is the disconnect between rational and faith based thinking. They are surrounded their entire lives with different and varying degrees of interpretation and justification for their Holy Works they are compelled to defend their own standard interpretation of - reinforced by the evidence that the world we perceive is merely a mental construct - and they think that reality is every bit as subjective as their scripture. The old, same evidence - different interpretation apologetic.

And that's the key. Apologetics. That's all religion has truly offered... both in the physical world, and in the spiritual - as evident by the number of differing religions all claiming to be the true spiritual path by it's devoted followers. Science, the understanding of the Creation, on the other hand - makes real world products and effects real changes in people's lives, used by man for good or ill, regardless of whether or not those affected by it desire to be subject to it.

But, for those who will not look beyond the veil of their personal bias and iron clad beliefs - who will not follow or accept the evidence, regardless of it's conclusions. They will write me and the many others who have engaged them as deluded or mislead, or worse (in the case of the more extreme fundamentalists) demonized as agents of Satan himself. They cannot yet see or admit that doubt and reason are not "prophetically foretold attacks" on their faith... but that those types of supposed prophecies are themselves the leash which holds them back. Mechanisms employed widely in human language and social dynamics to keep cohesion and unity of the group.

If thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, isn't that right? Better to enter Heaven lame than burn whole? As the mind is the seat of all human cognition and behavior (regardless of whether or not you believe in the Ghost in the Machine) essentially - better to enter Heaven an unquestioning sheep. An automaton. A lobotomy case.... than to risk a healthy mind which may lead you to hell. Conform and abandon your free will by choice or by threat of eternal fire. Genuine Love of God is irrelevant, and indistinguishable to him from Fear of God. Hmm. The other day I was listening to a religious (don't recall the denomination) call-in show on my way home, and one of the hosts refereed to that passage as a euphamism for excommunication, ostracizing, and ultimately exiling from the church those who ask "difficult questions". Better (in his interpretation) to sacrifice a ram to, than risk the loss of the flock.

For some, those who refuse to stop asking the hard questions and seeking a closer and more honest relationship with god - even at the cost of their scripture - tend to feel the pressure of self-imposed censorship out of fear of such persecution from their communities. For those brave enough to seek the truth, the conclusions they reach most often turn them to religious philosophies or positions such as Pantheism, Deism, Agnosticism - and most often, Atheism. Perhaps many Christians don't realize the pressure they put on those who stray... and I've often heard that "coming out Atheist" in a highly religious environment is as difficult as someone who comes out to their families regarding sexuality.

No wonder there are so many more "Angry Atheists" among those who are newly deconverted, who lash out at all things religious... at the sanctimonious attitudes, the patronizing offers of assistance, and getting naught but the same recycled arguments they themselves used to rehearse.

A few of their stories I'll post below, if those who feel they are strong enough in their faith to honestly and objectively listen to their stories, their epiphanies, and their testimonies, their experiences looking back - having once been in the believers shoes. Having lost their Holy Wars against reason and rationality.


Evid3nc3's videos. He bares his soul, and genuinely seems saddened by the entire situation and is mournfully sympathetic to his lost religion and fellow parishioners - having followed the path he felt God called him to, that lead to a very different destination than he expected.


Holysinecure's videos are a bit more terse and to the point; telling less of a personal journey and more of an overview of collections of logical, moral, historic, and both internal and external inconsistencies in their religion that forced them to break.

Please don't respond to me directly if you want to refute the videos. They're not my arguments. Look into their points and their claims. Honestly. Truthfully. If you want to refute the videos to anyone - refute them to yourself against your own biases and beliefs. Resolve those arguments with yourself... and see where you stand afterward.


[edit on 16-10-2009 by Lasheic]

Originally posted by okamitengu
..if its done in the name of your god, then you all bear the blame. trying to say it wasnt us it was our cousins isnt good enough.

Does anyone else have a problem with this statment? Am I the only one who finds it ignorant? Because some faction or lunatic believes in the same religion(any religion) as I may, we ALL/I should be to plame for said lunatic/factions actions?

Something that seems to be out of the grasp of comprehention of most non believers in religion, is that even though they(believers in a religion) all may aspire to learn from the same teachings, thay all usually have different ideals and personalities as different as faces. No one should be held accountable for anothers actions unless you actively and directly assisted. Simply believing in the same religion doen not equate to this.

And "being your brothers keeper" does not equate to taking the cain for the action of a stranger in common cloth.

.....

[edit on 16-10-2009 by HomeBrew]

...

[edit on 16-10-2009 by HomeBrew]

reply to post by HomeBrew


So you then don't believe a soldier in the Nazi regime just doing his job to stay alive shouldn't be held responsible for what Hitler the Nazi commanded his soldiers to do? What's the difference?

The Christians who committed the atrocities did so under Gods command in accordance to their biblical scripture. I am assuming that by your logic, we should not be mad at them, we should be mad at God instead.

Dr. Walter Martin was debating Madeline Murray O'Hare and she had said that Christians had killed lots of people. Then Dr. Martin pulled out the statistics and proved that it was the unbelieving communists that killed more people than Christians. You can listen to him talk about it here:
www.youtube.com...

reply to post by Sundancer

why not show the world that by example?

That's a trick question, right? Please. I have watched 'Christians' who have money running out of their ears, who pass over people who need actual, physical help, and what to do they receive? "Oh, don't worry, GOD loves you!" The 'Big' church pastors who show up bedecked in a hundreds of $$ suits, driving a shiny expensive car, dripping in gold, wife same way- what do they offer the poor and desperate? "Don't worry! GOD loves you!" Then expect these same poor people to finance their over the top lifestyle.

If you have a problem that makes them sit down and actually think, or have to pray, or do more than make them miss a lunch- you're some sort of demon possessed thing. "I'll pray for you" has turned into an excuse that says "Go away- here's a cookie".

Sorry- but when the Christians have time to not actually fix the world with deeds, but instead give everyone a heapin' helpin' of lip service instead, while robbing the poor blind- THAT is when everyone, good and bad are thrown into the same pot and cooked. Don't like it? CHANGE IT. Don't sit and whine about it.

[edit on 16-10-2009 by wylekat]

We can't change the past but we can influence the situation today.

reply to post by Lasheic


oh absolutely. the bible is a guide book but i don't think it's infallible. just like i don't think science is infallible. just like i don't think i'm infallible. or you. or the pope. or the pastor down the street. but i do get some great stuff outta the bible. granted, there are some really rough parts, but most seems to be due to translation error and condensed subject matter (particularly in the deutorocanonical texts) . i think it's a christian guide book, but it requires the christian reader to like read what yeshua says for themselves and decide if they want to practice what he teaches. it's not an easy road to walk and that's compounded by the fact people seem to have trouble separating individuals from individuals. i'm an individual, that much is clear just from a cursory reading of my approach to scripture. the world is full of individuals. and no two people believe exactly the same about anything

Originally posted by okamitengu

if its done in the name of your god, then you all bear the blame. trying to say it wasnt us it was our cousins isnt good enough.

arent you your brothers keeper?

Ooohh can we use the M word now?? Would it work, or does Allah forbid it?