No one is innocent but we Christans didn't do it

reply to post by grover

Sorry but both Catholics and Puritans are properly considered Christians whether you like it or not.

Sorry but Christians do not consider them Christians and that's what matters to Christians, wheather you like it or not!

poedxsoldiervet

The reason why Christians are being blamed for everything, is because they are easy scapegoats, and if I recall diddnt the bible say this would happen... Tell you the truth even after the rapture occurs most people here on ATS will say it was Aliens or something, and then when all of the bibles prophices come true they will still refuse to belive.... So really you cant fix stupid you know the truth you tell them the truth and if the choose to belive differntly its there life and the good lord saw fit to give us free will.

Well said, above all, Gods word must come to pass.

okamitengu

until the refomormation the ONLY christians were catholic.

ha ha
Any one that truly Knows history, knows exactly how wrong you are.
unbelievable ignorance.



[edit on 15-10-2009 by randyvs]

reply to post by wx4caster

christians killed jews with the same fervor found in the jewish holocaust of WWII

And Catholics killed those that believed differently than them with an equal fervor. If you were to look at the Nazis though, you'd see that they were truly occultists, using the guise of Christianity in order to dupe the Germans into following them, enabling them to accomplish their goals. (An example of what I said earlier in the thread.)

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by Avenginggecko

 

The Catholic Church may have that in their catechism, but in actuality, that's not how many of them practice. If they recognized all as Christians, that have been brought up in the faith, then there would be no need for there to be reunification talks with the Lutherans, Church of England, and other such groups. They would just be accepted. When push comes to shove, the Catholic church will only really accept you as Christian, and give you communion, if you believe that through baptism you're justified to God; which is not what most Protestant churches believe. Almost all believe that you're justified through faith alone.

True to a point, but as you said Catholics tend to worship more by Papal Decree (I went to Catholic School for 6 years as a Protestant and I completely agree), and the CCC is Papal Decree.

They look at it as Catholicism is the best way to get into heaven, kind of like a straight line is the best way from A to B. The offshoots of the Church (Protestants, Orthodox, etc.) are kind of like curving lines that loop around a couple times before they get to point B.

But really, it's hard to quantify much of any Christian Church's official teaching since Churches differ from place to place, region to region, country to country, and so forth. Not to mention you can probably count on one hand all the Christians in the world that practice their faith exactly as it's been enumerated.

reply to post by Sundancer

You are one of my favorite posters. You practice what you preach from what I've seen and I highly respect that.

I'm humbled by your kind words!

I understand what you're saying about the political party latching on, thus making it easier to get the people behind them, but didn't the bible warn of this so that Christians wouldn't make that mistake?

I don't think the Bible directly says it in the way that we're talking about it, but the Bible does say to beware of wolves in sheep's clothing and that in the last days there would be those with a form of godliness. Christians are to be on guard for such things. We do this by being in fellowship with God, through prayer and through reading the Bible, both of which give us spiritual discernment. Unfortunately, many Christians don't do these things and thus are able to be lead astray somewhat.

they demanded respect from the world and when the world needs them the most, the love they preach is no where to be seen.

I understand what you're saying. It is sad that many Christians are fine living in this "pseudo" Christian void that they're in. Many of us though try to show our brethren these things. Many Christians do show the love that is preached though, which is good; it just so happens though that this isn't picked up much because it's much more "entertaining" to see those fringe Christians that give a bad name.

Jesus was a damn fine man from what I can see, why not show the world that by example?

Oh we're trying. Especially in the younger and upcoming generations of Christians (of which I'm apart of). Maybe in the next decades, this view of Christians that permeates the western thought will change. It's a shame that more people can't see the shifts that are taking place in Christendom. What's coming is totally different that what is. From what I see anyway.

Try telling a Catholic that he isn't a Christian.

I have to say - what a silly thread and silly propositions - if someone calls themselves a Christian - then they belong to your group - whether you want them or not - sure you can claim you weren't personally responsible for the Crusades and so forth - but the underlying religious belief in Jesus and so on, is consistent.

I find it hard to get my head around how religious the US has become - I don't know if it was always that way - but it has become a Christian fundamentalist country - with extremist Christians.

I am amazed that atheism or gnosticism are treated very badly in the US - I thought atheism would be the norm for a free democratic country - its so strange that Americans seem to have such strong beliefs.

It seems it is part of the globalist agenda - the more beliefs people have - the less critical thinking they will do, the easier it is to cause them to conflict with each other - and overall they are easier to manipulate.

I wish I could stamp out all forms of belief out of peoples head by sheer force of will - or presentation of some revelation fact or something - I have a wealth of parables and analogies - but its pointless.

The sad story is, that people believe what they want to believe - and even a perfectly created argument showing that all belief is based on nothing but personal choice - and that the world is filled with fairy tales, and gods and devils and so forth of every description - they still doggedly hang onto what they are told, and what they want to believe.

Belief is an ASSUMPTION - its a personal choice - believing something does not make it true - nothing can be proven to be true - still - enjoy, if they give you some internal peace I guess. Seems a waste of another mind to me.

reply to post by Avenginggecko

They look at it as Catholicism is the best way to get into heaven, kind of like a straight line is the best way from A to B. The offshoots of the Church (Protestants, Orthodox, etc.) are kind of like curving lines that loop around a couple times before they get to point B.

Yeah, that's the Vatican II ruling, if I'm not mistaking. Right? I remember learning about it in a Catholicism class in college.

The reason that I disregarded it (kinda) in my posts was because, while it's the churches official stance, many churches (as you said) vary and don't follow it (especially really conservative Catholic churches) and I also saw a poll once (granted of American Catholics alone) that said that something like 65% want to go back to pre-Vatican II "officiality".

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by wx4caster

 

christians killed jews with the same fervor found in the jewish holocaust of WWII

And Catholics killed those that believed differently than them with an equal fervor. If you were to look at the Nazis though, you'd see that they were truly occultists, using the guise of Christianity in order to dupe the Germans into following them, enabling them to accomplish their goals. (An example of what I said earlier in the thread.)

i do not disagree at all, i am simply saying that the O.P claimed that there were no real true christians and that it was all catholics.

the real issue here can be seen by removing the labels that are there and seeing what lay beneath.

using religion or occultism as an excuse to kill or steal or cause violence and suffering by any faith is unacceptable and wrong. In the events that has taken place, it is not the RELIGION that is to blame, but the individuals doing the act. They are to answer to mans law, no matter what their belief of choice may say.

and equally wrong here is to try and pardon your religious ancestry with misdirection and then proclaim that anyone who says otherwise is misinformed and ignorant.

accept the mistakes of the past, learn about them, embrace them, understand them, that way you dont have to repeat them.

reply to post by Amagnon


I find it humorous that you find it bad that Americans choose to have (strong) religious belief, when they're Constitutionally protected, and then you say you wish you could stamp it out.

Are not your beliefs, about religion, any worse than the beliefs of someone that has religion?

reply to post by octotom

As I said before, they're Christian to those that aren't Christian and don't know the differences and how vast they are.

That's eerily similar to saying the House of Judah and Israel don't believe in the same God due to differences in practice and interpretation.

Yes, there are some passages that they interpret differently, but a large portion of what Catholics believe comes from Papal decrees and such. Catholics also believe that their tradition supersedes Scripture, completely ignoring passages like this, 2 Timothy 3.16:

I don't believe that makes them any less Christian. They still follow for the most part that Jesus was the Messiah, the true defining force behind Christianity.

Christians believe that all messianic prophecies tell of Jesus. Some though describe his second coming. This is contrary to what the Jews believe, which is that all the prophecies would be fulfilled at once.

It's contrary to what the Jews think simply because there is no second coming in the Messianic Prophecies. Jesus never fulfilled the prophecies outright as the Messiah was supposed to. The Jews denounced many false prophets who claimed to be the Messiah even before Jesus was around as well as after.

And what is this that we're "waltzing" into?

Christians are attempting to do nothing more than gather every one to follow a false prophet. Christian-izing the world as they go.

Yes, we don't belong to Israel, nor have we taken their place. We preach the Gospel to all, not just Jews, in the hopes that they'll hear God's word and realize that Christ is the Messiah.

God has already warned the two houses against false prophets, why would they want to listen?

If there is an almighty and he's reading this thread, can't help but think he'd be laughing so rediculously hard that the holy water he's drinking would come spewing out of his nose at the sheer number of people that just don't get it.

You are kidding right? well don't christians support israel who happens to be sadistic whining nation,

reply to post by sirnex

That's eerily similar to saying the House of Judah and Israel don't believe in the same God due to differences in practice and interpretation.

I don't believe that makes them any less Christian. They still follow for the most part that Jesus was the Messiah, the true defining force behind Christianity.

Half-way isn't good enough for God. Thus, getting it for the "most part" isn't either. Officially, Catholicism, on several points, goes against what Scripture says. Even on issues when it comes to who gets worship and adoration.

It's contrary to what the Jews think simply because there is no second coming in the Messianic Prophecies.

It's not said that there is only one coming either.

Jesus never fulfilled the prophecies outright as the Messiah was supposed to.

This stems from the assumption that the Messiah would only come once, when the Bible never says that he would only come once. When one takes the messianic prophecies as a whole, an interesting picture arises. That being that Messiah was to die, yet also be a victorious, conquering king. This lead many Jews in earlier times to believe that two Messiahs would come.

The Jews denounced many false prophets who claimed to be the Messiah even before Jesus was around as well as after.

To my knowledge, Jesus is the only one that is expressly mentioned and "debunked" in the Talmud. Apparently, there was something special about him. Just because the Jews reject him as Messiah doesn't mean he's not the Messiah either.

Christians are attempting to do nothing more than gather every one to follow a false prophet. Christian-izing the world as they go.

You could say it that way, from a non-Christian perspective, or you could say that Christians are trying to spread the good news of the Messiah. It depends what side of the coin you're one.

God has already warned the two houses against false prophets, why would they want to listen?

He also told them to be on the watch for the Messiah, who would come from a little town in Judah, who, some 483 years after the declaration to rebuild Jerusalem, would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey, and would be cut off and in doing so make atonement for the world's sin.

Until you can show me someone who did these things, on the exact time frame and manner that God predicted, Jesus is the only one in the running, and is most certainly the Messiah of the world.

[edit on 10/15/2009 by octotom]

I personally respect anyone who has faith in whatever they happen to believe in so long as it brings them comfort, inner peace, and enriches their lives, and harms nobody else spiritually, mentally or physically.

I cannot stand it when people stand behind their faith to further their personal or political agendas (GWB's "This crusade...this war on terrorism..." speech was a mistake, as he was/has always standing behind his religious convictions. Due to that, the current conflict in Iraq will never shake off the religious agenda).

If you want to put the religion back into politics, pay taxes (aimed at the churches rather than individuals). These should be real, honest taxes (like property taxes....!!!!!), and not side payments to select individuals in power.

Getting into semantics behind the various Christian cults and which were or were not responsible for various religious atrocities is pointless. Until Martin Luther nailed his protest to the church door, it would have been pretty safe to say that every "Catholic" considered themselves a Christian. They lived in "Christendom", and they followed the words of Christ. They actually were more likely to call themselves Christian than Catholic.

"Oh, it was the presbyterians" or WHATEVER is a really messed up, shallow, narrow minded way to look at things.

If there were atrocities that occurred due to whichever Christian sect, they are now part of history, not your fault, and nobody is trying to tar you with the same brush as the perpetrators.

The Christian church (mainly Rome) has been behind some really messed up stuff. Face it. Because they don't belong to your little congregation/sect/cult doesn't mean they were not Christians.
If you are a Christian, good luck to you. No hard feelings. I'm not going to think, "Oh, you're a Christian, you must be responsible for bringing smallpox to the Americas."

The Nazis may have had occultists at their heart, but outwardly they were building a new Roman empire. Catholic. I don't believe German people to be evil, they're lovely people. I don't like that the Vatican basically rubber stamped them. I don't think the Vatican are lovely people.

Why do people say 80% of American are Christian. First you must define what a christian is. I believe it is 1. A christian must have faith in Christ and God. 2. And rather then calling himself a christian he should show it through works! So it is much more then just saying I am a christian. Take for instance if I call myself a physicist that doesn't mean I am a physicist. It takes much more to be a physicist then merely calling myself one. Same with being a Christian. He must follow Christ and be like Christ (of coarse what I mean is follow in his footsteps).
So can 80% really call themselves Christians?

And as far as before the Reformation, there were few who followed the way of Christ. But don't get me wrong they were there. And everyone else just acted in the name of Christianity. Just like I said before just because you call yourself a Christian doesn't mean your anymore christian then the atheist standing next to you.

So my point if you look through the weeds you can find a flower...

reply to post by octotom

Half-way isn't good enough for God. Thus, getting it for the "most part" isn't either. Officially, Catholicism, on several points, goes against what Scripture says. Even on issues when it comes to who gets worship and adoration.

Case in point against Christianity as a whole then.

It's not said that there is only one coming either.

What did you just say above again? If God doesn't explicitly say there will be two comings of the Messiah, then that explicitly leaves only one coming. It's called common sense. Why give explicit prophetic guides to know the Messiah when he comes, but leave out a second coming? Use your head, you seem to have a decent one.

This stems from the assumption that the Messiah would only come once, when the Bible never says that he would only come once. When one takes the messianic prophecies as a whole, an interesting picture arises. That being that Messiah was to die, yet also be a victorious, conquering king. This lead many Jews in earlier times to believe that two Messiahs would come.

Two Messiahs is a much different interpretation than the same Messiah appearing twice. Neither God nor the Messianic prophecies indicate a second coming, so why follow that there *should* be a second coming?

To my knowledge, Jesus is the only one that is expressly mentioned and "debunked" in the Talmud. Apparently, there was something special about him. Just because the Jews reject him as Messiah doesn't mean he's not the Messiah either.

True, he is the only one mentioned, but I recall reading of others before him, I don't remember specific details right now off the top of my head.

You could say it that way, from a non-Christian perspective, or you could say that Christians are trying to spread the good news of the Messiah. It depends what side of the coin you're one.

I have to agree there, but we need to play around with Old Testament scripture to see who's side is right.

He also told them to be on the watch for the Messiah, who would come from a little town in Judah, who, some 483 years after the declaration to rebuild Jerusalem, would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey, and would be cut off and in doing so make atonement for the world's sin.

Jerusalem hasn't been rebuilt in full yet. Also, some Messianic claims supposedly fulfill some prophecies, but not all just as Jesus fulfilled some but not all. It stands to reason, that if Jerusalem isn't rebuilt in full, the prophecy hasn't been fully realized as of yet.

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

 

I've always found it interesting how, at least in this avenue (if it's the method he chooses to use), Satan already has a plan devised to explain away the rapture to the world once it happens.

I haven't given this a lot of thought before but you are right, Satan most likely does have a plan to explain away the rapture. He will need one. Oh well, it's his worry.

Peace,
Grandma

LOL you brought up the Salem Witch Trials, I thought It was common knowledge that the Collins family was behind that. (the Collins family help found the dark arts in America, they were the witches actually burning Christians).... True Christians are guilty of non of the atrocities they are commonly associated with the religion....

reply to post by octotom


Nicely Rebuked,
I'm glad someone is True to his faith....
Now only if people actually took the time and took your words to heart, but they will claim, Ignorance when the time comes......

[edit on 15-10-2009 by clever024]

Originally posted by clever024
LOL you brought up the Salem Witch Trials, I thought It was common knowledge that the Collins family was behind that. (the Collins family help found the dark arts in America, they were the witches actually burning Christians).... True Christians are guilty of non of the atrocities they are commonly associated with the religion....

are you serious? perhaps you have overtaken your meds O.O


the crusades, also known as a 200 year period where chritians ran around killing jews and muslims...

200 years out of 2000, 10% of christianity's history is painted red.

I'm going to have state that Catholics, Baptists, Evangelicals, Protestants, Methodists, etc are all christians. Having said that lets get into some numbers. I haven't had time to verify all of these but it gives us something to go on and look into further as far as Christians killing others.

Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to
convert to Christianity, beheaded

One example from the crusades

After 6/3/98 Antiochia (then turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and
60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women & children) killed

Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the
name of Our Lord Jesus Christ

The killings of the Cathars

After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search
and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the
stake 1324. [WW183] *Estimated one million victims (cathar heresy
alone

and it goes on and on.

I know that no one today did these things but 'Christians' did.