No one is innocent but we Christans didn't do it, page 1

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Topic started on 15-10-2009 @ 04:34 PM by the siren

Since joining more than a year ago, it seems like at least once a week some one will point out all of the atrocious mass murders that Christians have allegedly perpetrated over the past few centuries.

I've yet to see one of these posts based on truth.

I don't know if these posts are made in ignorance or if they are made with the sole purpose of influencing the genuinely ignorant against Christianity.

No one is innocent. I'll even admit that I myself am an embarrassment to Christianity half the time, but here's what we're not guilty of...

The Crusades
These murderous campaigns were sanctioned by the Catholic church.

Catholics are technically not Christians because they pray to saints and believe that a priest can absolve them of their sins, whereas the Christian Bible states that the only way to salvation is through Christ.

Although I have no proof, personally, I believe the crusades were more about the Roman Empires greed for land than any distorted religious conviction.

The Salem Witch Trials
These murderous trials were committed by the Puritans.

The Puritans advocated for separation from all other Christians. This is likely because the Protestants were opposed to the Puritan belief that the church should be allowed to administer capital punishment as it is contrary to Christs teachings in the New Testament.

Regardless, again I believe this was more about greed for land than any distorted religious conviction. This is what I base that speculation on...

According to the law of the time, upon the owner's death, title to the land would revert to the previous owner, or (if no previous owner could be determined) to the Church. This made witch-hunting an easy (if exceptionally cruel) method of regaining a profitable piece of arable land.

source: en.wikipedia.org...

Middle East Conflict
I imagine many of you will be raising your eyebrow at this one, but in a recent post an individual blamed Christians for all the deaths in the war over the Holy land.

I would have let it slide if this post hadn't been starred a few times, meaning others are completely ignorant as well.

For goodness sake people, that conflict is between the Jews and the Muslims.

And once again, it involves land. Does anyone else see the pattern emerging?

reply posted on 15-10-2009 @ 04:43 PM by grover

Sorry but both Catholics and Puritans are properly considered Christians whether you like it or not.

reply posted on 15-10-2009 @ 04:51 PM by Sundancer

The reason Christians are getting smacked for what's going on in Iraq and a few other countries is because the US is a Christian nation (80 percent) that has invaded, occupied and killed. It is still doing with no end in sight and where are all the Christians ? Cheering it on maybe? Sure not screaming, demanding it's stopped.

reply posted on 15-10-2009 @ 04:56 PM by octotom

reply to post by grover

They're lumped into the Christian fold by those that aren't Christians. Protestant Christians tend to not consider Catholics Christian because of unbiblical practices. Catholics would say that I, who you would call a Christian, truly am not because I'm not part of the Catholic Church and not in communion with them.

reply posted on 15-10-2009 @ 05:00 PM by octotom

reply to post by the siren

I watched a video on YouTube the other day where a guy was talking about the whole idea of war being caused by religion. He made a point, which I think is really good, that kinda goes along these lines: "People say that religion causes wars and thus is really a bad thing. That is untrue. It only seems like religion causes wars because the political establishment will latch onto a religious group, and use that belief in order to push their agenda. Doing so makes it easier to get the masses behind your goals."

Here is the video in case anyone wants to watch it.

[edit on 10/15/2009 by octotom]

reply posted on 15-10-2009 @ 05:02 PM by octotom

reply to post by Sundancer

The US may be a "Christian" nation, but the war isn't being done on religious grounds. And even if there is some segment that views it that way, it is an example of what I said before, people using the medium of religion in order to better gain support of the religious folk for the cause.

reply posted on 15-10-2009 @ 05:08 PM by poedxsoldiervet

reply to post by the siren

The reason why Christians are being blamed for everything, is because they are easy scapegoats, and if I recall diddnt the bible say this would happen... Tell you the truth even after the rapture occurs most people here on ATS will say it was Aliens or something, and then when all of the bibles prophices come true they will still refuse to belive.... So really you cant fix stupid you know the truth you tell them the truth and if the choose to belive differntly its there life and the good lord saw fit to give us free will.

reply posted on 15-10-2009 @ 05:15 PM by octotom

reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

Tell you the truth even after the rapture occurs most people here on ATS will say it was Aliens or something

There are those among the New Ageists that teach that soon the world is going to undergo a "cleansing" and it will remove all the people that aren't aren't ready for the New Age order of things and they will come back when they're ready. This is almost always said to be accompanied by aliens, who are going to be the ones that do the removing normally Christians are the ones being removed.

I've always found it interesting how, at least in this avenue (if it's the method he chooses to use), Satan already has a plan devised to explain away the rapture to the world once it happens.

[edit on 10/15/2009 by octotom]

reply posted on 15-10-2009 @ 05:18 PM by truskeptic

So you are saying that the Gog and Magog is not a religious symbol. That is what the our fearless previous leader based the war on.

Line 2

Tru

reply posted on 15-10-2009 @ 05:22 PM by poedxsoldiervet

reply to post by octotom

Of course the devil will explain it away... Why do you think Aliens and UFO disclosure is being shown around the world by some goverments... SO when the time comes poof he can blame it on Aliens, its far fetched but hey sometimes I reach out there and actually do pull a rabit out of thin air.

reply posted on 15-10-2009 @ 05:25 PM by okamitengu

sounds like the OP needs to read history.

until the refomormation the ONLY christians were catholic.
the romans killed ..... catholics. they BIRTHED the expression of christians.

protestantism is an OFFSHOOT of christianity.

if its done in the name of your god, then you all bear the blame. trying to say it wasnt us it was our cousins isnt good enough.

arent you your brothers keeper?

reply posted on 15-10-2009 @ 05:26 PM by sirnex

reply to post by the siren

Catholics are technically not Christians because they pray to saints and believe that a priest can absolve them of their sins, whereas the Christian Bible states that the only way to salvation is through Christ.

Technically, they are still Christians. They interpret different passages than most Christians and for them, those interpretations validate their beliefs. Just like all of Christianity thinks Jesus was the Messiah and interpret or rather, cherry pick certain Messianic Prophecies to show he was.

This is likely because the Protestants were opposed to the Puritan belief that the church should be allowed to administer capital punishment as it is contrary to Christs teachings in the New Testament.

You have to remember, God's word always supersedes the word of a false prophet like Jesus. The Puritan's were following God's commands. They were still Christians regardless.

I imagine many of you will be raising your eyebrow at this one, but in a recent post an individual blamed Christians for all the deaths in the war over the Holy land.

Christians are the one's waltzing into the middle of something they don't belong. Christians belong to neither the House of Judah nor Israel, so what are they doing there preaching the words of a false prophet? Who are they to bring the two houses down along with themselves?

reply posted on 15-10-2009 @ 05:26 PM by poedxsoldiervet

reply to post by truskeptic

Yes Gog and Magog are real nations, know as Iran and Russian. IRaq has nothing to do with it-) Bush went after the wrong country-)

From what I have read and my understanding is this Russia, Iran, and Irans Allies, Syria, Jordan, I think Turkey and a few other Arab nations will launch an all out attack on Isreal. Nukes, missles, fighters, bomber, ground troops will fall on Isreal, and god will smite them with out one Isreali dying.

I think it will be so spectaculor like maybe Meteors and will be explained away.

reply posted on 15-10-2009 @ 05:28 PM by octotom

reply to post by okamitengu

until the refomormation the ONLY christians were catholic

That's not true. Ever heard of the Greek Orthodox Church? Beyond that, there were Christians, other than the Orthodox Church, before the Reformation that weren't Catholic. You don't hear about them though because they were small pockets and couldn't stand up against the Catholic Empire.

reply posted on 15-10-2009 @ 05:33 PM by wx4caster

The Crusades
These murderous campaigns were sanctioned by the Catholic church.

Catholics are technically not Christians because they pray to saints and believe that a priest can absolve them of their sins, whereas the Christian Bible states that the only way to salvation is through Christ.

Although I have no proof, personally, I believe the crusades were more about the Roman Empires greed for land than any distorted religious conviction.

you claim others here are ignorant but then post a link to a source that specifially states the crusades was a CHRISTIAN push to gain control of the Holy Land that was under muslim rule.

you claim that it was sanctioned by the catholic church, yet the christians were not getting along so well after the catholics refused to elp them when the muslims pushed in.

and THEN you blatantly say that you have no proof followed by a short and heavily oppinionated and unobjective statement. there were several "crusades" over a couple hundred years. waged by christian nations against the jews and the muslims.

christians killed jews with the same fervor found in the jewish holocaust of WWII

reply posted on 15-10-2009 @ 05:35 PM by Avenginggecko

Originally posted by octotom

That's not entirely true. From the Catechism of the Catholic Faith (basically the All-Star Guide to being a Good Catholic):

Catechism 818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

Catholics consider anyone who has been baptised in the name of Christ to be a Christian.

As to the OP:

The Crusades
The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Eastern Church were the only two forms of Christianity at the time. Are you saying that the only Christians that existed for the better part of a millenia and a half were Russian and Balkan Christians?

The Catholic Church was by and large the only form of Christianity for quite a long while.

And aside from very small sects of fundamentalist Christians (think Jehova's Witnesses), all Christians celebrate the pagan holidays with pagan traditions. Does this exclude them because they honor false idols?

The Puritans
I have no idea where you're getting this information or what you're trying to show, but for the better part of Christianity's history, the various sects completely supported either torture or murder of undesirables. Just because a priest or pastor wasn't out there with axe in hand or tying the knot on the gallows, doesn't mean most Christian churches weren't complicit in state-sanctioned murder. For the vast majority of human history, religion and government has been intertwined with members of the same families pursuing the same goals.

In fact, I don't believe a modern government had specifically addressed the matter of seperation of Church and State until the Magna Carta and the US Constitution.

The Middle East
Not much to say here other than the situation in the Middle East would be vastly different if the mostly Christian US stopped dumping money into the coffers of governments that hate each other in the area.

The simple historical fact is that the Christian Church(es) were intrinsically involved with government and shaped all European government's policies for centuries. God and Christianity are used to justify war and murder, and have been, since there's been a God and Christianity to worship.

There are quite a few members on this site that would tell you they're a proud Christian and they can't wait for the rapture, etc. And then in another thread have no problem saying we should attack Iran, or Iraq was a good idea, or there should be automatic weapons and walls on our borders, we need more troops to beat down the Taliban, etc.

The reason why Christians are being blamed for everything, is because they are easy scapegoats, and if I recall diddnt the bible say this would happen... Tell you the truth even after the rapture occurs most people here on ATS will say it was Aliens or something, and then when all of the bibles prophices come true they will still refuse to belive.... So really you cant fix stupid you know the truth you tell them the truth and if the choose to belive differntly its there life and the good lord saw fit to give us free will.

You're right. You really can't fix stupid. You can try to show some intelligence and insight and hope someone reads your words and takes them to heart, but unfortunately, it's often not the recipient of your message.

reply posted on 15-10-2009 @ 05:38 PM by octotom

reply to post by sirnex

Technically, they are still Christians.

As I said before, they're Christian to those that aren't Christian and don't know the differences and how vast they are.

They interpret different passages than most Christians and for them, those interpretations validate their beliefs.

Yes, there are some passages that they interpret differently, but a large portion of what Catholics believe comes from Papal decrees and such. Catholics also believe that their tradition supersedes Scripture, completely ignoring passages like this, 2 Timothy 3.16:

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

Just like all of Christianity thinks Jesus was the Messiah and interpret or rather, cherry pick certain Messianic Prophecies to show he was.

Christians believe that all messianic prophecies tell of Jesus. Some though describe his second coming. This is contrary to what the Jews believe, which is that all the prophecies would be fulfilled at once.

Christians are the one's waltzing into the middle of something they don't belong.

And what is this that we're "waltzing" into?

Christians belong to neither the House of Judah nor Israel, so what are they doing there preaching the words of a false prophet?

Yes, we don't belong to Israel, nor have we taken their place. We preach the Gospel to all, not just Jews, in the hopes that they'll hear God's word and realize that Christ is the Messiah.

reply posted on 15-10-2009 @ 05:40 PM by bagari

reply to post by Sundancer

That's the most laughable faulty logic I've ever heard. So, if you are right, since most flight attendants are female, I should blame women for the fact that I have to pay $5 for a lousy sandwich every time I fly.

reply posted on 15-10-2009 @ 05:45 PM by octotom

reply to post by Avenginggecko

The Catholic Church may have that in their catechism, but in actuality, that's not how many of them practice. If they recognized all as Christians, that have been brought up in the faith, then there would be no need for there to be reunification talks with the Lutherans, Church of England, and other such groups. They would just be accepted. When push comes to shove, the Catholic church will only really accept you as Christian, and give you communion, if you believe that through baptism you're justified to God; which is not what most Protestant churches believe. Almost all believe that you're justified through faith alone.

reply posted on 15-10-2009 @ 05:45 PM by Sundancer

reply to post by octotom

Great to see you again Octotom. You are one of my favorite posters. You practice what you preach from what I've seen and I highly respect that.

I understand what you're saying about the political party latching on, thus making it easier to get the people behind them, but didn't the bible warn of this so that Christians wouldn't make that mistake?

I know some of my posts are harsh Re Christianity. It's not because I dislike them, it's because I'm trying to get them to see that they've put themselves in a place where they demanded respect from the world and when the world needs them the most, the love they preach is no where to be seen.

I'm looking for a little Jesus, and instead I'm seeing people screaming for more war because they're afraid of a terrorist ? It appears from the outside they have little faith, when they can't trust their God will take care of them on their soil which he'd been doing a damn good job of doing when you're talking numbers including 911.

It just seems that they would let God love them and their brothers in other nations and give peace a chance. Jesus was a damn fine man from what I can see, why not show the world that by example?

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