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No one is innocent but we Christans didn't do it

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posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 03:09 PM
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reply to post by wylekat
 


hey wyle,

well i'd help ya but hubby was out of work for a year. we are still trying to scramble outta the debt. we've tightened ye olde belt several times, such as washing machine broke and we couldn't fix it. so i'm washing clothes the good old fashioned way...by hand. dishwasher broke, couldn't fix it...so wash by hand. vaccuum broke, so the broom works. etc.
people lived like that for thousands of years, it's just more difficult ya know. i could cry about it though if you think it'll make ya feel better?




posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 03:09 PM
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Originally posted by the siren
Catholics are technically not Christians because they pray to saints and believe that a priest can absolve them of their sins, whereas the Christian Bible states that the only way to salvation is through Christ.


Wow. The Catholics are not Christian? Show I guess Shiites are not Muslims now either?


If it were not for Catholicism Christianity would have never spread to become the major religion of Western Civilization.

Let me see, Catholics believe that Jesus is the son of God.

Catholics believe that Jesus died for their sins.

Catholics believe there is only one true God.

Sounds like the same religion to me.




The Salem Witch Trials
These murderous trials were committed by the Puritans.

The Puritans advocated for separation from all other Christians. This is likely because the Protestants were opposed to the Puritan belief that the church should be allowed to administer capital punishment as it is contrary to Christs teachings in the New Testament.

Regardless, again I believe this was more about greed for land than any distorted religious conviction. This is what I base that speculation on...


Let me see, Puritans believe that Jesus is the son of God.

Puritans believe that Jesus died for their sins.

Puritans believe there is only one true God.

Sounds like the same religion to me.

Like grasping at straws?

So I guess the real Christianity wasn't founded until the emergence of the Fundamentalists?

Are Calvinists Christian?

What about Baptists?

Or Presbyterians?

Or Episcopalians?

Maybe none of them are Christian either






posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 03:25 PM
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Just to clear something up real fast, The United States Constitution, says nothing about seperation of church and state.

The 1st Amendment states:
[quote=Constitution]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Some people have interpreted this as meaning, "Separation of Church and State", yet Congress sessions, to this day, start with a prayer...

Other's have interpreted this as meaning, exactly what it says. No law solely respecting a certain religion or prohibiting one.



posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 03:26 PM
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reply to post by dalan.
 


well i think the difference is things like

1. if they don't want to hear the gospel, move on. don't try to force it on anyone.
that's a pretty important one, i should think. and even if it wasn't in there, i'd assume it because it's logical. the only reason someone would want to do it any other way is if they saw it as a way to gain power or money or were completely convinced that they had to force it on others. it don't say that in there though.

2. the church building is not a building. it's the believer. the believer is the temple of god.


3. the word is written on the heart of the believer. it's not in a book. the word of god is yeshua for the christian. the bible is a guideline but it's not yeshua.

4. the individual believer can go straight to the source, without any middle men, without pomp, circumstance, or ritual. the biggest ritual is having conversations with God, asking for forgiveness, being publically baptized as an adult, as yeshua did, and asking for and claiming the salvation of yeshua.
extra stuff is just window dressing.

5. sabbath is friday sundown to saturday sundown. whether you observe it or not, is not a sticky point if you follow paul's teaching as if he were infallible. i don't think he was but that's just me.


anyway, i think it's a matter of extremes.









[edit on 16-10-2009 by undo]



posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 05:06 PM
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I maybe simple but this is the way I see it

1. If someone follows the old testament only they are Jewish
2. If someone follows the old and new testament only they are Christian
3. If someone follows the Koran only they are Muslim

Now what I can't understand is that I thought all Christians followed the 10 commandments?
Do not murder / Kill; What about Christian soldiers?

Why aren't all the Christians protesting against the wars in middle and near east?

Whatever happened to love thy neighbour?



posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 05:37 PM
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reply to post by lightchild
 


i think alot of them are protesting it. it's the msm that wants you think that the war is a christian idea, specifically. it isn't. it was a national/government idea at the time, based on the belief that we had been attacked and needed to defend ourselves. some christians agreed to it at first and then began to disagree with it after thinking about it. others agreed with it entirely. and some just thought it was wrong right from the outset.

i remember the day it happened. i was just told i had breast cancer and was going to need surgery, i was trying to care for my elderly mother who had advanced alzheimers and lived with us in our home, and hubby was overseas (not to mention 3 kids and 3 dogs). and some guy comes up and asks me what i think about the trade center disaster. i didn't even know it happened. i was so freaked out about my situation, i could barely think straight. it took me days to finally absorb the news. i didn't think war was a good idea. but whatcha gonna do? the guys at the top o' the heap appear to want to fight over there.

every time i hear the number of christians in the usa, it goes up. i think someone's fudging the numbers lol no way is this a 80 percent christian nation. it's a melting pot nation. whatdya wanna bet those numbers have been fabricated to make the entire thing look like it was all the fault of those blasted christians and if it weren't for those blasted christians, there'd be peace in the world.



posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 05:57 PM
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As stated many times, if the church wants to influence politics they can pay taxes. All taxes. It would be amazing how quiet they'd get if their tax free status was threatened.

Christians are people. The church is a business. Two completely different things.

Jesus was a Jew. Died a Jew.
St. Paul was a Jew. Died a Jew.

If Jesus had known about all this sectarianism within the Christian community, he'd have just gone back to being a carpenter.

Christianity has committed atrocities. There were Christians involved in them.
I don't hold other Christians responsible.
Why would you even think of distancing yourself from them. They're not you.
Or is this all happening before the cock crows thrice....????


Charles Manson was a white male. He brutally murdered.
I don't hold other whites, males, or any combination thereof responsible.
I also don't go out of my way to say, "He wasn't a real man, and he wasn't really white..."
Tsk.


[edit on 16-10-2009 by Badgered1]



posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 05:59 PM
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Originally posted by okamitengu
sounds like the OP needs to read history.

until the refomormation the ONLY christians were catholic.
the romans killed ..... catholics. they BIRTHED the expression of christians.

protestantism is an OFFSHOOT of christianity.

if its done in the name of your god, then you all bear the blame. trying to say it wasnt us it was our cousins isnt good enough.

arent you your brothers keeper?


I second that !!!! Plus saying that Catholics are not Christians may be the most bigoted thing I've heard here at ATS....but just for fun lets look at some quotes from Martin Luther, who by the way was responsible for the murder of some one hundred thousand German peasants...here is the great hero of the Protestant reformation at his inglorious best - Thanks but I'll take Rome over this insanity any day of the week



Quotes from Martin Luther
"God does not work salvation for fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin vigorously.... Do not for a moment imagine that this life is the abiding place of justice; sin must be committed."

"Sin cannot tear you away from him [Christ], even though you commit adultery a hundred times a day and commit as many murders."

"A large number of deaf, crippled and blind people are afflicted solely through the malice of the demon. And one must in no wise doubt that plagues, fevers and every sort of evil come from him."

"An earthly kingdom cannot exist without inequality of persons. Some must be free, some serfs, some rulers, some subjects."

"As to the common people, ... one has to be hard with them and see that they do their work and that under the threat of the sword and the law they comply with the observance of piety, just as you chain up wild beasts."

"Demons live in many lands, but particularly in Prussia."

"I almost feel like throwing Jimmy into the stove, as the priest in Kulenberg did."

"I feel much freer now that I am certain the pope is the Antichrist."

"I maintain that some Jew wrote it [the Book of James] who probably heard about Christian people but never encountered any."

"I should have no compassion on these witches; I should burn them all."

"Idiots, the lame, the blind, the dumb, are men in whom the devils have established themselves: and all the physicians who heal these infirmities, as though they proceeded from natural causes, are ignorant blockheads...."

"In many countries there are particular places to which devils more especially resort. In Prussia there is an infinite number of evil spirits."

"Many sweat to reconcile St. Paul and St. James, but in vain. 'Faith justifies' and 'faith does not justify' contradict each other flatly. If any one can harmonize them I will give him my doctor's hood and let him call me a fool."

"Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God."

"Snakes and monkeys are subjected to the demon more than other animals. Satan lives in them and possesses them. He uses them to deceive men and to injure them."

"The damned whore Reason...."

"The fact that [the biblical book] Hebrews is not an epistle of St. Paul, or of any other apostle, is proved by what it says in chapter two...."

"This fool [Copernicus] wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred scripture tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth."

"We are at fault for not slaying them [the Jews]."

"We know, on the authority of Moses, that longer than six thousand years the world did not exist."

"We should throw the Epistle of James out of this school [the University of Wittenberg]....

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings...are to be taken from them."

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews."

"What shall we do with...the Jews? I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb."

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...set fire to their synagogues or schools and bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them."

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...their homes also should be razed and destroyed."


Thats just a sample of the great Protestant reformer's thinking- now as to the Christians being blamed for mass murder and such like - hate to break it there are unfortunately several examples of this - to say that the perpertrators were not Christians is BS - if they were baptised and believed in Jesus Christ and the Trinity then they were Christians - perhaps not the best Christians but Christians never the less

The Spanish inquisition - mostly a political crime but done with the collusion of the church - Spain was trying to reunite itself after the Moors had left unfortunately it did this at the expense of the Jews who were a wealthy and influential class of people at the time

A lot of people cite the Crusades but actually that was started by the Muslims and the Christians went to war originally to defend territory....however some European Monarchs invoked this over the centuries whenever they needed to raise themselves in the eyes of their subjects - much the way politicans of today like to invoke God for support of their modern "crusades"...

The witch burnings - I think the OP said this was Puritans - well the Puritans were heavily influenced by Martin Luther - what a surprise
The witch burnings in Europe were not just done by the Puritans - there are many theories but my favorite is the one that shows how so many women were left without husbands after the plagues of Europe - widows with land then became targets of unscrupulous officials who wanted to posses their neighbor's property - this practice was fairly widespread but came under the fire of church officials in the end and was stopped all together in the eighteenth century...

Then there are the practices of the various Christian explorers like Columbus who is held responsible by some for the genocide of the West Indies - Cortez and the destruction of Indian culture in south America also comes to mind....

However all that said Christianity has also been responsible for some important advances in human rights, it played a major role in the abolition of slavery around the world, and the Catholic church played an important role in the development of science including the scientific method - I know most folk are taught that the church is at odds with science but this is a fallacy...

As a Christian I don't see any reason to deny the errors or crimes of Christian men and women - it's called "taking responsibility" , learning from one's mistakes and moving forward - If we fail to do this then we fail Christ and our fellow humans...and they see us for the hypocrites we then become having failed to honestly face our darker moments..thats my take - take it however you want.



posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 06:05 PM
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learning from one's mistakes


those are not my mistakes.
my mistakes are my mistakes.
those are not catholic mistakes. those are
papal mistakes. big difference. just like it's not
the fault of a guy in chile if president-whatever decides to attack
another country.

time to get a grip!



posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 06:12 PM
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Originally posted by undo

learning from one's mistakes


those are not my mistakes.
my mistakes are my mistakes.
those are not catholic mistakes. those are
papal mistakes. big difference. just like it's not
the fault of a guy in chile if president-whatever decides to attack
another country.

time to get a grip!


Wtf are you talking about?? Columbus was not the pope
Cortez was not the pope
The men who burned witches were not the pope and Martin Luther who supported and encouraged the killing of one hundred thousand Germans was not the pope so please the only on who needs a grip on reality is you my friend
Either that or you need to read my entire post because you clearly missed the point...

[edit on 16-10-2009 by realshanti]



posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 06:18 PM
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reply to post by realshanti
 


who am i apologizing for again? the pope, martin luther, columbus? not only did yeshua already die for those people to be forgiven, but i didn't know them, and i didn't agree with their actions so why should i apologize for them? last time i tried apologizing for someone who wasn't present and who clearly didn't think they needed to apologize themselves, i was told i must have a huge ego to think i could apologize for other people who had no intention of righting their own wrongs.

sigh. i have enough to handle just dealing with my own life!



posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 06:32 PM
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well this is ridiculous.

i wonder why it is modern dissections of various christian groups cant accept that followers of THIER god, jesus... did things in HIS name.

any follower of CHRIST is a christian regardless of semantics.

YOU MIGHT NOT PERSONALLY AGREE, but thats your choice. you can choose to split hairs to make yourself feel better about history.

history is unkind and full of attrocities. if your of british decent you carry the deaths of many races. germans carry the jews, americans the death of amerindian races and australians carry genocide of an entire aboriginal race so on and so on.

no one is afraid to say they arent part of that race because of the history.

so for any christian to say its not part of MY history they are simply trying to delude themselves to feel better. did jesus not say where two or three gather in my name i shall be with them? wouldnt that also include massacres?

its not a sin to have had mistakes done in your past. the sins of the father were supposedly absolved by jesus death. accept that what was done in the past was done in the name of the same christ, your christ. he forgave the offspring according to your dogma, by his death. you now need to accept it was christians.

for a religion that has forgiveness and love of fellow man at its heart you can really be quite one eyed when it comes to the truth. you are all one in christ. arent you? wasnt that his point? you might not like your christian brothers but i would have thought it was jesus who decides who the christians are, not you.

own your history. its part of what made you who you are.



posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by undo
reply to post by rnaa
 



I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,



hey i've seen weslyen methodist creed thingy and there's no
holy catholic church mentioned in it.



Yes, it is in the Methodist version. I spoke the Methodist version of the Apostles' Creed every week for many years.

See the Wikipedia article here for many versions.

Or see this article.

I too have seen versions with this line removed. Presumably due to misunderstanding of the word 'catholic'. Notice that the word is not capitalized. It means 'universal', not the Papist Church in Rome.



posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 06:38 PM
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reply to post by okamitengu
 


you willing to go to prison for crimes you not only didn't commit, but that were done hundreds of years ago under questionable circumstances? that's what i don't get. the minute you accept it as something you're willing to apologize for, you are deemed guilty and therefore required the forgiveness in the first place, which they don't have to give you! so now you've got an angry person who has you on record apologizing for crap ya didn't do!
can we just go back to being forgiven as individuals. next thing ya know someone's gonna ask me to apologize to bacteria for using lysol on them



posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by trevordbs
Just to clear something up real fast, The United States Constitution, says nothing about seperation of church and state.

The 1st Amendment states:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;


Some people have interpreted this as meaning, "Separation of Church and State", yet Congress sessions, to this day, start with a prayer...

Other's have interpreted this as meaning, exactly what it says. No law solely respecting a certain religion or prohibiting one.



And that is the definition of "separation of Church and State". For example, England has a state sanctioned official church, "The Church of England". Its head is the Queen, who appoints its senior officers. There are laws on the books that both favor the C of E, and discriminate against other churches. In Germany, funds for the church are collected through the tax system.

Prayers in Congress are non-denominational, there is no law establishing them, certainly not to the exclusion of any religion, and participation is not mandatory in any way. I believe they have had prayers led by Hindus. This has nothing to do with the concept of separation of Church and State.

Don't confuse this with the issue of prayer in schools which is about establishing one particular religion in Government schools.

[edit on 16/10/2009 by rnaa]



posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 06:44 PM
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case in point! this guy is MAD! and you know, i can't blame him either. problem is, i did not enslave the man. i don't think my ancestors did either and i know my hubby's didn't. but would it help to apologize to him for it? oh heck no. he thinks skin dictates sin and i'm a whitey! so apologizing to him would be verification that i'm personally responsible for crap that happened to his ancestors. watch it and learn





[edit on 16-10-2009 by undo]



posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 07:34 PM
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reply to post by undo
 


Here is what you did not learn from watching it.

The girl, while perhaps "well meaning", opened Pandora's box. The man while wrong for verbally abusing the well meaning girl, was telling the unadulterated truth.

So the moral of the story s not that you should "feel" guilty for the crimes of your ancestors, but you need to understand that your way of life is a direct result of the crimes perpetrated by your ancestors.

The truth 1s that you can only right a wrong by taking responsibility for your part in it. To absolve yourself by saying, I didn't personally enslave your ancestors so don't look at me for sympathy is not only incorrect but conveniently ignorant of the real facts of the matter.

I'm not Black so skip that part, how about you just go beyond the first skin of the onion and see what lies beyond the surface.

Were it not for slavery and the abuse of Blacks, Chinese, Hispanics, and "poor people" this country would not be the cesspool it is today.

So when you see angry minorities verbally going off about racism, listen to them, you will hear the truth. Surely more true than your candy coated version where things of the past don't exist. They do, and still need to be addressed.

Then see if you can muster the courage to deal with the truth using your brain, not your fight or flee instincts.

She asked the wrong question, at the wrong time, and to the wrong person.

Let me ask you this.

Should she now become racist? or should she perhaps re-evaluate what it means to be a racist?

I don't know what kind of Ahole the guy is but in this particular case, the girl got what she asked for, she was just ignorant of what it was she was asking for.

We are a nation of idiots. Does it help for me to say, I'm not one? No because idiocy rules today.

The blabber in this forum is proof that the U.S. is crawling with racists and deluded morons, at least on the Internet.

In the end my being here on this thread proves I'm an idiot because arguing real issues with morons, and deluded rabble rousers is proof of personal stupidity.

[edit on 16-10-2009 by ziggystrange]



posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 10:05 PM
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my hubby's ancestors weren't even in the americas till after ww2, and then they were in canada till the 1960s. i dunno about my family. they weren't rich, that's for sure. i do know that i had an ancestor that was a handmaiden of marie antoinette but that's basically an indentured servant anyway. the idea that only people of one skin color have been wronged or enslaved is ignoring the rest of history. the idea that only one race has been mass murdered is ignoring the rest of history. and the idea that only one religion or non-religious belief system has been persecuted is ignoring the rest of history. AND, the idea that one group has more of a gripe than another is REALLY ignoring the rest of history. most forget the biggest group of all, the one thing all those other groups have in common: women.

i'm female. and historically, you don't even want to go there! the atrocities committed against women and female children and female unborn, are piled up so high, they would dwarf every war, every enslavement, every persecution for the entire history of the planet. but i don't expect people of the opposite sex to apologize to me for crap some guys i don't even know did to women i don't even know, just because i'm a woman? it's just ludicrous. i mean is that the kind thing you want to see people doing? you wanna go to jail for some other guy's raping of a woman?

seriously twisted stuff.



posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 10:51 PM
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reply to post by undo
 


Right, with all due respect, what I'm saying is that the "it was in the past" response is not a rational retort to someone complaining about "current" racism.

There are men that abuse and discriminate against women today, just like people that discriminate against minorities "today".

If you choose to inject yourself into a debate about these topics, then understand that, "That was in the past" makes no sense to someone that is experiencing it today.

What you are doing is claiming that the person crying racism is somehow delusional. This is what is happening right now on ATS.

According to posters here, there are no racists at ATS, but at the same time liberals and Democrats, or anyone playing the "race card" IS the racist.

Can't you see the insanity of this?

I'm not saying you have to apologize for what happened to minorities in the US, you just need to stop denying it, and perpetuating it.

I was taught that when a wrong is perpetrated, you make amends. You don't just say, it was not me so I should not have to share in the fix.

As Americans we "all" have to heal the wounds of racism and intolerance.



posted on Oct, 16 2009 @ 10:58 PM
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Originally posted by undo
reply to post by realshanti
 


who am i apologizing for again? the pope, martin luther, columbus? not only did yeshua already die for those people to be forgiven, but i didn't know them, and i didn't agree with their actions so why should i apologize for them? last time i tried apologizing for someone who wasn't present and who clearly didn't think they needed to apologize themselves, i was told i must have a huge ego to think i could apologize for other people who had no intention of righting their own wrongs.

sigh. i have enough to handle just dealing with my own life!



ahhh I see what your getting at - nps - I understand -my apologies - just trying to get the history right - not the pope in most of those cases - but individuals making some really bad choices....hmmm not sure I completely agree with the "arrogance" part - apologizing is different than facing up to the actions that some took in the name of one's God - I can't personally apologize for them and what good would it do anyway at this point - ? but I can look at those actions as lesson in how NOT to act...even if I were not a Christian [and for many years I wasn't ] its still part of my history as a human being - always something to learn from history..



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