No one is innocent but we Christans didn't do it

reply to post by ziggystrange


wait. at what point did i suddenly not have any part in any fix? how do you know what i said and thought the first time i watched that film? you don't know crap about me, just like he doesn't. just assuming crap crap and more crap. it's just crap. i never said he wasn't experiencing racism now! who the heck isn't? everyone has to endure that crap. crap and more crap!
it's just crap. i don't think of myself as different till he tells me i'm different. i don't think of him as being unreasonable, till he insists my skin color proves i'm not human and that i'm a wretched selfish evil person! well welcome to club humanity! i'm not blaming the guy next to him or the guy in 2000 BC for what he says on that video, i'm blaming him for what he says on that video. because it's not reasonable to blame an entire race of people for things that have been going on for forever. and you know it's the truth.

just to give you a heads up, that fellow believes white people are the devil, literally. so while we are trying to mend wounds and go about a normal coexistence, he's telling his brothers and sisters that he shouldn't trust us cause we're the devil. so the real devil, he gets a free ride. and the white folks, well, no matter how poor any individual was in their history or the history of their families back to the dawn of creation, no matter how abused or enslaved any of them were, it don't mean squat cause they are the devil anyway and probably deserve it.

one day i met a black guy who believed that and i said
"but lord, even the dogs get the scraps from the table."
his response was that some white people, who were less evil, would be saved
to act as their servants. i was like, "what kind of heaven would that
be for me?" he said, "you're the devil, you don't deserve heaven."

what else can i say but i went in humilty and he smacked me upside the head.

reply to post by undo


From my point of view it's not your fault what people did in the past.
But please accept that in the past bad things did happen and it was done in our name and we should take responsibility for that.
It's the same reason that the UK is responsible for most of trouble in the Middle East and Africa, we caused it. We should fix it.

But just to remind everyone, the OP is

No one is innocent but we Christans didn't do it

I am starting to wonder if this a troll thread; because the OP spelt Christians wrong and hasn't replied once.

reply to post by undo


I'm not excusing the guys beliefs, or his actions. He looks like one of the nut jobs in NY that stand on corners selling incense claiming to be the "real" Jews. She should have just kept on walking.

My problem was, and is with your rationale.

This thread was ridiculous to begin with. More crimes have been committed in the name of Jesus by Christians than any other cult I can think of. The Vatican was all for Hitler's plans, Spain, Italy, and most Europeans living in Latin America all liked Hitler and his totalitarian ideas.

The native peoples of the New World were decimated by the invading Europeans, entire cultures were wiped out, the inquisition took a heavy toll on Jews. The Spanish were nasty people, as were the English, and the French.

We Christians did do it. We still do. Who do you think is responsible for the death toll in Iraq? Was it not the Christian right that backed Bush all the way into Iraq to get the WMD? At the end of the day are not Christians just waiting for Armageddon? I think we can expect a few casualties in that scrape.

The Reaping, Left behind, these are all sanguine myths perpetuated by "God Fearing Christians" Jesus will come back like a lion and smite the sinners, cause he loves us all and he's had a change of mind from "turn the other cheek", now he's the avenger of the righteous coming back with legions of Angels to kill the infidels, and the demons. This is fantasy.

This is all delusion. If God loves you, then he's not going to punish you, and he's not sending you to perpetual torment in hell. People made all that up to scare other dumber people into doing what they wanted. God is not coming to punish the errant sinners of Earth.

We have to kill our own snakes, we have to accept responsibility for our future and act accordingly. We have to stop hatred, greed, injustice, class warfare, economic terrorism, world hunger and health care fraud. Most of all we have to eliminate Religions.

Saying crap a bunch of times is just throwing a tantrum.

reply to post by lightchild


are you responsible for what chairman mao did? nope.
okay, closer to home. are you responsible for what your government does? we try to vote in people we think are positive role models, who have something of value to add to the history of the planet. more often than not though, we all end up with what is expedient to the guys in charge of the planet, not what is good for anyone else in particular. so we've made an effort for positive change. in fact, several. the idea that individuals should be blamed for what some other individuals do is perhaps the singlemost divisive and damaging concept on the planet. i'm so fed up with it, i can't even begin to tell you.

but be that as it may, OF COURSE, I RECOGNIZE THE BLACK PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SCREWED OVER. IN FACT, I WAS SO AWARE OF IT, that i had long ago adjusted to the idea of treating them fairly and equitably, as i would want to be treated. ya know the golden rule and all. there's an entire generation of kids who do not see skin color that are being told now that they must see it!!! it's imperative!!!!!!! and my question is WHY? let it heal for gads sakes. good freakin' grief.

reply to post by ziggystrange

Saying crap a bunch of times is just throwing a tantrum.

precisely. you nailed it. when i get frustrated, i say "crap." i use to swear like a sailor. gave it up, well, except for "crap." i suppose i could get rid of "crap" too if you think it gives the wrong impression other than the fact, i'm frustrated beyond belief.

when i was born, i was not a christian. the moment i became a christian i inherited like 2000 years of horrid crimes. now mind you, i'm reading this lovely man named yeshua, who is talking about ghandi type stuff and reminds me of a hippy, and i'm thinking... oh this guy is awesome. and WHAM! the other shoe dropped and i was informed that i was now responsible for what some guy who called himself a christian did in 1400 AD, 1000 AD, 1600 AD, 1900 AD and now 2000 AD and all points inbetween.

shock to the system? well yeah! how i went from this great idea of loving your neighbor and so on, to being instantly responsible for the crusades i will never know. it's so ludicrous, it's beyond ludicrous!

reply to post by undo


Ok, Touche. That was a low blow on my part. Venting is good for us, and crap is a mild word.

Look I agree with you that it's a heavy burden, but Christ did say the road was rocky and serpentine, or something like that.

I like what Christ said according to the scriptures, but I find that those people that weigh on you, the ones that call themselves Christians are in the majority.

I was born and raised a Catholic, once I realized the past, I left, I talked to the clergy, but all I got was BS.

From what I can see now, Religions are corrupt Corporations so I stay away and try to be a good person.

I have my own spirituality but that is another conversation.

I don't blame you for feeling like you do, but I can also see the other side, and I just believe with all my being that until the scales are even, we have to be a little extra emphatic toward those who have been and continue to be wronged.

Peace
Ziggy

reply to post by undo


Here's the thing: YOU didn't inherit any crimes or anything else, if you try your darndest to live like a true Christian, you're not a part of the lies, deceit, and all the other crap the rest of the 'craptians' do and put up with. I am sure God knows it, and the real deal will be absolved of almost everything.

Unfortunately, it's hard yanking the wheat from the chaff any more. I honestly have lost the ability to tell who's good and who's not, just from sheer overload of bad. Everyone gets a suspicious look from me when they say they're a christian.


[edit on 17-10-2009 by wylekat]

reply to post by the siren


I think you are absolutely right, the Siren.

It is clear from the Christian bashers on here that they have not read and studied the Bible and have spent more time reading anti-Christian literature and watching straw man films like Zeitgiest. This shouldn't surprise us though seeing as a sign of the latter days is people proffessing to be wise, who are really fools.

It is not too late though. I hope that someone might actually research the subject and as a result study the Bible. Then, they will see that it is the word of God - and maybe they will turn to Christ for Salvation. Jesus will turn no-one away. No-one.

reply to post by speakplain



Jesus may not, but I know of churches that do. My beef has only been with Jesus by proxy. I hear how Jesus is reflected in people who are Christians- and With of course exceptions, I have seen and experienced a LOT of bad. There are churches that have been calling people that leave 'antichrist'. It's on another thread. Churches call ones who leave the Antichrist

Reading the Bible and praying just isn't enough. People desire to be with like people, and when they end up being taken in by the wrong people- well...

And for crying out loud Undo- if you're not a crummy Christian, why do you protest? You've already shown you're not, so PLEASE stop throwing yourself in the same basket as the slime, k? I keep getting this feeling all of us who are decent, or at least try hard, are all going to be running for our lives soon.

Originally posted by grover
Sorry but both Catholics and Puritans are properly considered Christians whether you like it or not.

A Christian is someone who follows Christ.
If Christ specifically says "No one comes to the father but by me" and he says "turn the other cheek" and then a group of people consistently do the opposite by going through a priest or murdering people they disagree with, then how, pray tell, are they following Christ?

Originally posted by Sundancer
The reason Christians are getting smacked for what's going on in Iraq and a few other countries is because the US is a Christian nation (80 percent) that has invaded, occupied and killed. It is still doing with no end in sight and where are all the Christians ? Cheering it on maybe? Sure not screaming, demanding it's stopped.

That's a weak argument in my opinion, but fine, let's go with that...In a 2007 survey, 78.4 adults identified themselves as Christians, 23.9% of which were Catholic so they don't count. That means only 54.5% of Americans are Christians. So if half the country is something else, what have they done to stop it?

Originally posted by octotom
It only seems like religion causes wars because the political establishment will latch onto a religious group, and use that belief in order to push their agenda.

I agree, regardless of whether Catholics and Puritans are or are not Christians, I don't think any of the afore mentioned mass murders were religious in nature. Religion was just a cover.

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
Tell you the truth even after the rapture occurs most people here on ATS will say it was Aliens or something, and then when all of the bibles prophecies come true they will still refuse to believe.... So really you cant fix stupid you know the truth you tell them the truth and if the choose to believe differently its there life and the good lord saw fit to give us free will.

Indeed

Originally posted by wx4caster
you claim others here are ignorant but then post a link to a source that specifially states the crusades was a CHRISTIAN push to gain control of the Holy Land that was under muslim rule.

The writer of the Wiki article feels that Catholics are Christians.

Originally posted by wx4caster
and THEN you blatantly say that you have no proof followed by a short and heavily oppinionated and unobjective statement.

I did point out that I had no proof, but that doesn't mean I don't have evidence...

The specific crusades to restore Christian control of the Holy Land were fought over a period of nearly 200 years, between 1095 and 1291

It's always about the land.

Originally posted by Avenginggecko
The simple historical fact is that the Christian Church(es) were intrinsically involved with government and shaped all European government's policies for centuries. God and Christianity are used to justify war and murder, and have been, since there's been a God and Christianity to worship.

Yes they've been used by people who consistently ignore what Christ said and yet still call themselves Christians.

Originally posted by Amagnon
I have to say - what a silly thread and silly propositions - if someone calls themselves a Christian - then they belong to your group - whether you want them or not - sure you can claim you weren't personally responsible for the Crusades and so forth - but the underlying religious belief in Jesus and so on, is consistent.

So silly that you couldn't resist joining in?
I could go around giving flowers to grannies in the name of satanism, but that doesn't mean satan is happy about it and it certainly doesn't mean that I am a satanist regardless of what I call myself.

Originally posted by Amagnon
I wish I could stamp out all forms of belief out of peoples head by sheer force of will - or presentation of some revelation fact or something - I have a wealth of parables and analogies - but its pointless.

Because you know it all apparently.

Originally posted by clever024
LOL you brought up the Salem Witch Trials, I thought It was common knowledge that the Collins family was behind that. (the Collins family help found the dark arts in America, they were the witches actually burning Christians).... True Christians are guilty of non of the atrocities they are commonly associated with the religion....

I've never heard that, please tell us more.

Originally posted by amazing
I'm going to have state that Catholics, Baptists, Evangelicals, Protestants, Methodists, etc are all christians. Having said that lets get into some numbers.

Well if you're going to say that, then the numbers don't mean much.

Originally posted by helen670
What the high powers do does not nessasarily mean that all the people are also corrupted, as each will be personally judged according to their own,be it ignorance of the truth!

That's a good thing, otherwise we'd all be screwed!

Originally posted by helen670
The Prayers of Saints are Scripture based and a valid in the Old and New Testament!

Thanks for the scriptures. I need to study them before I reply properly.

By the way, I love reading your posts.

Originally posted by Key2life
If I walk around with a name tag that says I am christian does that make me a christian. No of coarse not right. Now image a whole herd of us with these name tags doing things in the name christianity, like killing and conquering. Now people see there tags and say hey they are christians that are killing and conquering. How do I know, because they claim they are christian. But wait aren't christian's those who follow christ teaching. So if your not following christ then you are not christian. Get it...

Good analogy.

reply to post by the siren

A Christian is someone who follows Christ.

Not only follows, but believe he is the Messiah. The important aspect your missing in your argument is that all the denominations claim to do just that. Your writing off the atrocities of one denomination because whatever denomination you belong to didn't conduct themselves in the same manner. They are still Christians regardless of how you or they interpret the word of God and Jesus.

Yes they've been used by people who consistently ignore what Christ said and yet still call themselves Christians.

Hell, if you closely listen to what God himself said you wouldn't be following Jesus in the first place. Jesus does not supersede God.

I could go around giving flowers to grannies in the name of satanism, but that doesn't mean satan is happy about it and it certainly doesn't mean that I am a satanist regardless of what I call myself.

Why not? Satan hasn't actually committed any evil acts, or at least what you and I would consider evil. God murders, Lucifer did what again? Oh right... Demanded being treated equal instead of forced into worshiping a tyrant and giving us a gift of knowledge. Yea please, show the wrong in that.

Originally posted by kilas
TYPICAL YANK!!!... I know that history is no longer taught in the USA. But please read some books .

I'm South African actually.

Originally posted by kilas
I could go on here but its clear you need education. Go get one. Come back and pick up the discussion.

I have a very good education.

Originally posted by kilas
I could go on but its clear you have some research to do to get your facts right before spouting crap.

I've done the research, that's why I started thread smart arse.

I'm surprised to not have seen it mentioned, yet. But I am always amused by people who apparently subscribe to the doctrine of sola scriptura yet do not listen to the scripture nor do they feel any inclination to look at a Catholic Bible which is identical except it contains the additional scriptures of Tobit, Judith, 2 Esther, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, Epistle of Jeremiah, Song of the 3 Children, Story of Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, Prayer of Manasseh, and 1 and 2 Maccabees. The Orthodox Bible contains the above along with 1 Esdras, 3 and 4 Maccabees, and Psalm 151. I was raised Catholic (although I can't say that I am practicing at the moment) and even though we did not subscribe to sola scriptura I still wanted ALL information and therefore got myself an Orthodox Bible (actually I know many Priests that count it amongst their collections as well) and the same reason as to why I have read many various religious texts across faiths and research the history of the time. Just to clarify additional text does not mean added texts, it means texts that were dropped from Bible post Luther.

The divide between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church occurred in the mid 1000's and more a fight of authority and power than anything else (see East West Schism), and just a fun fact the Orthodox Church does have a Pope, he's just less well known than the one in Rome.

Originally posted by the siren
No one is innocent but we Christans didn't do it

Whenever a point is made against Christians, a Christian is first to say "don't lump us all in one group", "we're not all like that", etc etc..

It is quite justified that the opposite also applies: you can not say that Christians didn't do it, because you can not speak for all Christians, both current as well as retrospectively.

An extreme example of what may happen if "Christianity" (not the real stuff, but the money grubbing slime stuff) runs rampant:

How very wrong things could go even here.

This could and probably does happen here in the US, tho probably in isolated spots. I cant believe it's going on ANYWHERE- and without any divine retribution, yet!

reply to post by wylekat


Your link reports back to an expired yahoo article, could you try again?