"Ban the Koran" says Dutch politician

reply to post by the siren

We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society. Learn the language! Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture. We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us. This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'

Wish more western leaders had the guts to say something like this.

First thing: there's no such thing as "THE Islam" - as in christianity, there are numerous different spirits and points of view. Radical, opposing and violence gloryfying muslims make out a vast minority of the total of muslims... Most muslims are no different than other religious people, who choose to live by the given values and moral of their religion. And as far as I can recall we still have freedom of religion, no?

Geert Wilders consciously generalises and thus demonizes all muslims, which is a wrong perspective to start with. His main goal seems to create a climate of fear and hate towards muslims, which, in my opinion makes him just another propagandist, racist, fascist. In that way, he's no different than our Philip Dewinter (Vlaams Belang).

I'm not saying there is no problem at all with muslims in western european countries, but islam as a religion isn't the real cause of these contemporary problems we face.
Most of the muslims living in countries like the Netherlands, Belgium, France, UK, Germany ... are here because of economical reasons (either their parents or grandparents moved in when we needed more labor forces back in the sixties, or they migrated searching for better life conditions).

Multiple factors (little or no education, language barriers, being coloured- racism, no jobs, bad housing ...) make that today's muslims in Europe are far more represented in the lowest social positions, thus making them part of the lowest social class. Most of them were mainly uneducated farmers and mountain people in their fatherland, they already were at the bottom of the social ladder there as well)

The problem we're currently facing has a mainly economic basis, it's not really a cultural thing... although by assuming it is (which is called cultural racism), we polarize the whole situation: we accuse muslims of being reluctant to work, hate our culture, being aggressive, not willing to integrate... while they look at us as being racist, decadent, demonizing Islam...
We expect muslims to integrate into our society, but we're not willing to respect their beliefs or give them the freedom to live according to their own values.
Since we have two parts of a population facing each other, the gap just gets bigger: it's a polarisation, creating more misunderstandings, hate, disrespect ...
Geert Wilders focuses on this society problems and blames Islam/muslims, while in reality the existing problem is far more complicated than that.

Another point is that today's generation of muslims in Europe have quite an 'identity issue': they grew up in a western society, with parents and a community around them that's living towards muslim values. They get a lot of contradicting signals, and we see a couple of different reactions:

the local community becomes more extreme religious, as a reaction to the outside, secularized world (more strict even than religion is experienced in their homeland).
Youngsters drift between morals and standards of their community and western society - they don't know to which part they belong anymore... and by resisting both, they belong nowhere. An atheïst, capitalist, liberal Arab still gets treated different than an atheïst, capitalist, liberal white boy...

Hate, fear and misunderstanding create more hate, fear and misunderstanding - no good can come out of a simplification of such a complex situation like this. A pity people like Geert Wilders get all opportunities to spread such simplifications. He isn't solving the problem with his misidentification of it, on the contrary, he is part of it.

reply to post by babloyi

Here's an article you and poetb might find interesting

Burqa Ban

A familiar story in an unfamiliar place. The story: Women are being barred by law from wearing burqas, those head-to-toe robes with only a narrow slit for the eyes favored by Muslim clerics. Burqa bans have been instituted or at least discussed in places like France, Italy, England, and even Canada. This time, though, the setting is heavily Muslim Egypt.

[SNIP]

www.luisgranados.com...

@babloyi , wherever the burqa is being forced on the womenfolk;muslim or otherwise , in a WESTERN country or MUSLIM country , I believe it should be banned. There are even some in muslim countries who have tried and are trying to ban forcing a woman to wear the burqa and hijab. If there are women who truelly , without coercion want to wear these garments so be it , but the minute there is no choice but "my way or the harshway" in the matter , I see it as oppressive.

Mod Note: Large Quote – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 10/20/2009 by TheRedneck]

This Tantawi fellow seems interesting. If he is genuinely a compassionate man , who being in a position to know more about the religion , sees many muslims practicing their faith in error , errors that have gone on for almost one and a half millennia, we need alot more like him. Maybe he can bring about the reform Islam badly needs.

If he is not and his views are just exceptions to the norm:dn.

reply to post by babloyi


Exactly why did you bring up womens' high heeled shoes?

What did you mean by this?

Why in the world do you accuse western men of forcing their women to wear high heeled shoes?

You are the one who posted about women walking around naked. I am just quoting you.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
Geert Wilders plays of the sentiments of these people who are ignorant of the facts about foreigners, and then they rally and complain against anything foreign (read colored). That's what's going on. He should be ignored.

You said you were from Aruba. That would also mean that you have a different perspective from people born and raised in mainland Netherlands.

I can perfectly see what Geert is trying to say. The country being overrun by a faction whose culture and way of life are just way too foreign to a Dutch person. Can't see how you can disagree with that simple statement.

reply to post by blupblup


Where are you making stuff up?

This quote here is a good example.

Or the Church covers it up to protect their good name.

I think it's common knowledge that it happens.
And more often than not... nothing is done about it?

Why would the church have to cover it up when it is common knowledge?

What you have posted here is complete nonsense, and the fact that you think this is the real situation shows that you have a clear bias against Christians.

No, Christians are not like the Muslims who think it is ok for a forty year old man to marry an 8 year old girl, and your attempt to claim this shows that you care nothing for the truth.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


I'm not talking about the past. I'm basing this on his treatment of foreigners right now. The majority of his policies are focused on thoughts and actions against foreigners. What he does is find a way to rationalize and veil or cloak his racism by going at the easy and obvious to point out problems that foreigners bring (unlike neo nazi's and skinheads who are open and up front with their racism).

I don't suffer and I don't blame any problems on anyone. I'm pretty good where I am. I do have a problem with racists though in any form (black, white, green, yellow, purple or red) whatsoever.

reply to post by Symer


Which government doesn't have problems with corruption. No one. We do have problems in our government with corruption, that's the main reason that government was just voted out a month ago. But Hero Brinkman called everyone corrupt. Every single one of us. That's the difference.

reply to post by TSOM87


Then they should tackle the problem that stems from mutual understanding, not exclusion. And promote their integration instead of catering to their wishes (fault of this government (CDA) and the previous (PVDA) coalition governments). It's very simple, they (the Morrocans, Turkish etc..) are being spoilt IMO. Getting everything they want (they even want a segregated community now), so they get spoiled. It's very simple. If PVV (Wilder's party) approached the situation from a different standpoint (from inclusion instead of exclusion and pointing fingers) then they would've gotten my support.

But then again I've known enough muslims who do integrate who went to university, and are living as full productive Dutch citizens. It's not all of them who are like that.

In fact several muslim women have had crushes on me (with one settling for my best friend because I moved back to Aruba.. hahaha nahh just kidding) ... So don't mind me if I'm defending them...

[edit on 20-10-2009 by TheBandit795]

Originally posted by blupblup
Or the Church covers it up to protect their good name.
I think it's common knowledge that it happens.
And more often than not... nothing is done about it?

Originally posted by poet1b
Why would the church have to cover it up when it is common knowledge?
What you have posted here is complete nonsense, and the fact that you think this is the real situation shows that you have a clear bias against Christians.

The church DO cover up abuse cases... even the pope was accused of "obstructing justice" .

Did you read the links i provided you?

Instead of twisting peoples words and misquoting them, just be direct.
No need for game playing or misconstruing things.

What i said was, The church cover up abuse cases and sexual abuse of children by priests in not exactly a rare thing.



People know about this because of the cases that have been made public.

Please... it must be difficult but try and read the words and then understand them...ok?

reply to post by buddhasystem


How can they be overrun if they are still a vast minority? It's not being overrun, the main problem they have there is the crime being caused by both foreigners and Dutch, and the police who seem to put more effort in prosecuting and fining traffic violations than tackling actual crime. And the Dutch laws that all but prohibit victims from defending themselves and/or their property. Hit a man stealing in your house and your going to jail, act in self defense and you are going to get locked up. That's the main problem.

And I don't have much of a different perspective, I've lived in the Netherlands, we have Dutch tv stations here (in Aruba), we have the Dutch laws and education system here, the majority of my relatives on my mom's side live there. So I know a great deal about the situation there. The problem with Islam and foreigners is being blown up in proportion to other issues there (besides eco & animal rights based issues). And the biggest Dutch criminals (Willem Holleeder) are almost treated with velvet gloves and like celebrities.

reply to post by De La Valletta


Excellent article, good to hear from Muslims who recognize how terrible the burqa is. Thanks for the link.

Thought I would post some quotes.

Mohammed Sayyed Tantawi is the Sheikh of al-Azhar University, the closest thing Islam has to a Pope.

Whether Tantawi can succeed in enforcing the ban is open to doubt. A regulation preventing Egyptian nurses from wearing the burqa while they work has never been enforced; fundamentalist Muslims began demonstrating against Tantawi’s proposal even before it was announced.

Public reaction has been somewhat different in France, where the first witness at a hearing on a proposed burqa ban last month was a Muslim woman begging for such a prohibition, for her own protection. Sihem Habchi trembled as she told the panel that the “right” to live inside a burqa is really the right to be bullied by Muslim men into submission.

“The survival of many young women depends on” new laws to protect them, she said. “They get around with their ghetto on their backs.” The same viewpoint was expressed across the Atlantic by Farzana Hassan, head of the Muslim Canadian Congress: “The burqa has absolutely no place in Canada … In Canada we recognize the equality of men and women. We want to recognize gender equality as an absolute. The burqa marginalizes women.”

The humanist challenge to Muslim dress rules was first mounted by Kemal Atatürk in Turkey, 80 years ago. When the victorious allies in World War I tried to carve Turkey up among Greek, French, Italian, and British occupiers, Atatürk organized a fierce and ultimately successful armed resistance. He realized that he needed to drag Turkey into the modern world if it was going to remain independent, and that meant all of Turkey – not just the men.

Atatürk wanted to outlaw the wearing of veils, but was never able to push his legislature that far. Instead, he did everything he could from his bully pulpit to discourage the burqa:

“In some places I have seen women who put a piece of cloth or a towel or something like it over their heads to hide their faces, and who turn their backs or huddle themselves on the ground when a man passes by.

This last statement I quote really nails it. What buggers to make their women live in such fear.

Originally posted by Solidus Green eye
Hi Guys,

I'm from the Netherlands. And we've seen this guy alot in the news here.
I know he's a bit over the top about banning a whole religion.
And he's saying alot of provocative things about muslims. Its all for the media attention for him. Here in the Netherlands he was trying to make people pay tax money for wearing a headscarf

The point is, he is making people THINK. Especially in the down-to-earthy Netherlands. Were everybody thinks: Ooh no worry's , the government will do the thinking for us. Just vote for the guy who puts up the best act.

There are now area's, infested with muslims who's childeren don't go to school. Carry guns, don't speak dutch and live on health care.
The police can't even go to some neighborhoods.

In the Netherlands we give pride to our freedom of speech. Geert Wilders is pointing out that it has disappeared into nothingness. Since you can't walk safely on the streets at night now, and you can't say what you like and don't like. Because some irritated aggressive muslim will bust you head in for saying you don't like the quran. Believe me it happens, and I've seen in happen.

So, I'm not saying he's right, he sure ain't right about a lot of things.
But he makes good points about loosing our fundamental moral's in the this society.

Peace

I am sorry to hear your country is being taken over by immigrants. Maybe he does go overboard a little bit but he has to to get people's attention to the massive problem incurred from immigration. I don't understand why people immigrate to another country then try to instill their particular values (for lack of a better word). Why don't they just stay where they were in the first place if they think the societal norms were so preferable? I don't refer to muslims only, but to any and all people who immigrate.





[edit on 20-10-2009 by Bombeni]

But, and a big BUT.. I've found some muslims in the Netherlands to be racist as well. I've seen several (Moroccan) web forums in which the users there were posting racist slurs against European and Caribbbean (Dutch & Antillean) Dutch people, and racist videos on youtube. Calling Hitler's name etc... (strange but true)

reply to post by blupblup


Never claimed that the church didn't cover it up, only that your claim that this was common knowledge.

When it became common knowledge, the church took a big beating in public opinion, and the prosecutions began.

Your attempt to excuse legal child molestation in Muslim countries because the catholic church has some priests who got by for awhile with secretly molesting children is abhorrent.

Originally posted by poet1b
Your attempt to excuse legal child molestation in Muslim countries because the catholic church has some priests who got by for awhile with secretly molesting children is abhorrent.

Again..... where did i say this?

You seem to imply that i have said many things which i absolutely have not said?

I haven't said anything about Muslims molesting children.

Instead of making up my responses in your head you should perhaps try and read them instead.




And getting back on the topic.... which is " Ban the Koran says dutch politician".... i still stand by what i said.

If you ban the Koran.... you should ban all the Abrahamic religious documents... and any other literature which anyone finds offensive.
But if we start down that road.... we would end up with nothing to read.

I obviously don't feel that banning the Koran is the right thing to do.


I think the laws of any country should trump those of any religion.

I think that religion should be completely separate from the judicial system and the policing of the country.

Which is fortunately the way it is in my country.

Which is good.

[edit on 20/10/09 by blupblup]

reply to post by TheBandit795

and the police who seem to put more effort in prosecuting and fining traffic violations than tackling actual crime.

Now that is a piece of the truth, seems to be what is going on here in the U.S.. The police sure love them safety laws, all easy money.

Why is the government spoiling the Muslims?

It seems a repeat of the way ghettos were created in the U.S. to maintain racial tensions.

A few pages back I provide a link to a PDF study on the situation. One of the stats in the article is that most Turks living in Holland consider themselves to be Turks, not Dutch, or Dutch Turks.

If they consider themselves to be Turks, then why aren't they living in Turkey?

reply to post by blupblup


You said this in the original post to which I replied.

That is why you brought up the catholic priest scandal in the first place.

Now you are just playing games.

This is a typical scenario in the muslim community, except at 12 years old at least the girl is somewhere near the start of puberty; many girls as young as 8 or 9 are sold to old muslim men. Even their prophet mohamud married a 6 year old. Hey nice example to set there Mo old buddy.