Did no one really get what Jones was trying to do?, page 19

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reply posted on 18-9-2009 @ 09:47 PM by A Fortiori

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by Kojiro

Originally posted by Lillydale

Riiiiiight. He has been a professional writer and talk show host and truth bringer for how long now? He just now realized these kinds of disclaimers belong at the top? If you think he is that stupid, why would you listen to anything he said?

"Let he who is free of sin cast the first stone." Even Jesus, whether he's real or fictional, realized that nobody's perfect. A man will goof a million times in his lifetime. I've goofed. You've goofed. We've all goofed.

I am not sure how things go where you work but if I were to damage the credibility of my company, I would be fired.

[edit on 18-9-2009 by K J Gunderson]

Not if you owned your own company.

Besides, this isn't about companies, it is about a guessing game and who comes the closest, unfortunately.

reply posted on 18-9-2009 @ 10:03 PM by A Fortiori

Originally posted by Lillydale
reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

I just cannot help myself sometimes I guess. I was trying to steer it all back to Alex over and over but I like to toss him his two cents back as well. I really think that if Alex had nothing to make up for, there would not be these nuts in here trying so hard to distract and insult. I just really enjoy watching them dance all over the place while the actual topics sits there looking every bit as silly. Alex is a liar and a fraud and I think that his most fervent defenders are brainwashed and ignorant of the world around them. I do not think it took too much away from the main point. I felt like it just helps to point out how far they go to defend him and still they come up with nothing.

I think I see where we are all running amok.

Alex Jones is not a polished professional like my MSM love, Anderson Cooper.

His "team of professionals" probably consists of some underpaid twenty-something's who come to work and fart around on /b/ all day. I just don't see that as the well-oiled machine that you two obviously do. He has tons of papers on his desk, can barely find the ones he needs when he needs it, he has to tell his crack team at least five times what to focus on when he does point. God forbid he needs video or a caller!

Alex clearly is a true believer. He believes what he's selling. A flaw of his is that when he's wrong he doesn't always back down, he'll grumble and spin, but...it's hard to eat crow in front of a gazillion listeners. Think post Iraq FuBar Bush--wait, nevermind. Bad example.

I don't believe he intentionally lies and deceives. For example, I don't think he said: I'll make up a story about Child Protective Services doing bad things. Perhaps he reads too much in, but so do police officers, principals, teachers, FBI agents--people dealing with the worst of society all tend to become overly paranoid and look for wrongs where maybe they don't exist.

I think they made a FUBAR that morning and in typical fashion he rambled before he knew what he was talking about--a techie, he is not.

Another misconception is that some of you feel that we are slavishly devoted to Jones. He is entertaining, this stunt got 9-11 Conspiracy talked about again, but beyond that...most of us Alex Jones listeners enjoy him, see his usefulness, but worship him? No, no, a thousand times no.

Obviously you are hatin' on our gold lovin' man from Texas, and I can dig with that.

I just...don't. He's funny and if I have to get some conspiracy theory from someone then if I can laugh about it...all the better.

BTW, since you mentioned your gold cravings I even smile during commercial now, so, thanks Lily.

reply posted on 19-9-2009 @ 02:08 AM by Lillydale

Originally posted by A Fortiori
I think I see where we are all running amok.

Alex Jones is not a polished professional like my MSM love, Anderson Cooper.

His "team of professionals" probably consists of some underpaid twenty-something's who come to work and fart around on /b/ all day. I just don't see that as the well-oiled machine that you two obviously do.

That is where you get ahead of yourself. I never said that I believe he is a well oiled machine. Unfortunately, when you have the public airwaves, you have a responsibility to the truth. He does not remind us that he is a clutter-freak with underpaid teenagers doing his web work. He reminds us that he is the only one on the radio that knows the truth and that Bob Chapman still has some and 970oz. Do you realize that is under spot!!!!

He has tons of papers on his desk, can barely find the ones he needs when he needs it, he has to tell his crack team at least five times what to focus on when he does point. God forbid he needs video or a caller!

His desk or the desk in his broadcast studio? I guarantee that man has more than one desk.

Alex clearly is a true believer. He believes what he's selling. A flaw of his is that when he's wrong he doesn't always back down, he'll grumble and spin, but...it's hard to eat crow in front of a gazillion listeners. Think post Iraq FuBar Bush--wait, nevermind. Bad example.

Then he should not announce that everything is either "admitted" or "documented" with such conviction considering his hit rate is less than 50 percent. If he has not realized by now that he needs to stop being so declarative, then he is too slow to have a radio show or be trusted.

Thanks, you made me choose between liar, or stupid. The helps out quite a bit.

I don't believe he intentionally lies and deceives.

They leave kids in cages to die! This is admitted, Folks! He and he alone has the admission that Child Protective Services steals children and leaves them in cages to die and yet he is not going to authorities, he is not producing evidence of this admission, he has not even brought it up a second time. Do you really think this man is a good man?

Either he believes these kids are dying and is just choosing to ignore it...or he knows he has no such admission. Alex makes the choices easy for us.

For example, I don't think he said: I'll make up a story about Child Protective Services doing bad things. Perhaps he reads too much in, but so do police officers, principals, teachers, FBI agents--people dealing with the worst of society all tend to become overly paranoid and look for wrongs where maybe they don't exist.

The man was on the radio SCREAMING "This is admitted, folks!" Is it admitted or not? Did he follow up or not? Is there any reason a sane person would even believe that is true? Would a sane person be made aware of it and just leave it be?

I think they made a FUBAR that morning and in typical fashion he rambled before he knew what he was talking about--a techie, he is not.

Another misconception is that some of you feel that we are slavishly devoted to Jones.

Then you should stop seeing yourself as part of a collective "us." I believe that anyone that defends his blatant lies as mistakes, must be doing so because they have already bought into him. I also believe that you can see, as well as I can that people on these boards do actually believe every single thing this man says. If you are not either of those...then do not put yourself with them.

He is entertaining, this stunt got 9-11 Conspiracy talked about again, but beyond that...most of us Alex Jones listeners enjoy him, see his usefulness, but worship him? No, no, a thousand times no.

Obviously you are hatin' on our gold lovin' man from Texas, and I can dig with that.

I do not hate him at all, I listen, I think he is fun. I used to believe in what he had to say. I started looking into it and had an easier time finding "admissions" and "documentation" that proved he was a liar, wrong, or stupid. I have my favorite because it is short and so outlandish for all its brevity. If I listen again on Monday, I will find more. He tells at least one lie every single chance that I get to listen to more than 5 straight minutes. He insists that this stuff is admitted and documented. If he is honest, misguided, whatever, then why doesn't he publish any of these admissions or this documentation? I am just saying, he found a great marketing scheme, it is making him lots of money. He entertains people too. Unfortunately, there are people stockpiling weapons and survival gear, teaching their family about revelations while Alex is out drinking scotch, and smoking it up with Joe Rogan and Charlie Sheen.

I just...don't. He's funny and if I have to get some conspiracy theory from someone then if I can laugh about it...all the better.

BTW, since you mentioned your gold cravings I even smile during commercial now, so, thanks Lily.

LOL, you mean the third or fourth hour(s) of the show half the week? That is a lot of smiling to do. I know I will not be changing any minds but at least I made a smile happen somewhere.

reply posted on 19-9-2009 @ 07:19 AM by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

reply to post by A Fortiori

Please please please please understand I do mean this respectfully and don't mean this as an attack. You see. That is my problem you give him way past the benefit of the doubt. Read your statement from a neutral standpoint please.

reply posted on 19-9-2009 @ 02:11 PM by A Fortiori

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

I take no disrespect from it at all. I think that Alex Jones, while not certifiable, is a bit "off". I absolutely do believe that Alex Jones believes what he is saying. I know people like him, I've worked with people like him, and I just do not believe that he is deliberately trying to deceive people.

If he were trying to deceive people then he wouldn't point to locations or documents that people could look up and verify, validate, or discredit what he is promoting. Unlike many of his listeners I do not put the entire burden of Truth upon him. I consider myself a thinking human and if I am fooled by someone then the fault is on me. It is my job and duty to verify anything that someone tells me before I either act or base an opinion on it.

As for justifying Alex, allow me to take an example that Lily provided: CPS.

Do I believe that Child Protective Services keeps children in cages? No. Do I know of children in foster care that have been "kenneled"? Yes, I do. Is that CPS doing it? No. Do I know of children who have been sexually abused in foster care? Yes, I do. Is that CPS doing it? No. However, CPS has a responsibility as the agency who removed the child from a potentially abusive home to find another "home" for the child that is safe, not safer, but safe. If they do not accomplish such a task then the "sin" is on them. Therefore, there is "truth" in what Alex Jones is saying. Is it the entire truth? *shakes head* Is it misleading? Possibly, and then again...it was on their watch that these things happened, and as such it was their duty and responsibility to oversee the care and welfare of children that they removed from their original homes.

Am I obfuscating for Alex? I don't believe so. Why? Because the subject matter of his stories is usually slightly more complex than: Truck overturns on 95, details at 11:00. In the case of CPS, they are as responsible as the people committing these crimes against children in the foster care system because they removed the child from its home, placed them in a "pre-approved" family, and did not appropriately monitor the child in foster care as they did the home they removed the child from to begin with.

Alex Jones believes that the planet is cooling down instead of warming up. He feels that science proves this. I think he is dead wrong. I think science proves the opposite. Do I think he's lying about the planet cooling down? No, I don't. I think he's wrong.

There is a difference in being "wrong" and "lying". Lying is the willful act to deceive. Meaning, I know that Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction program was terminated in the early nineties, but I will fabricate a story because it will give me the justification that I need to wage war against Iraq. When the CIA reports that there are no WMD's and I send them back and say "Find some!" that is a willful act of deception. That is not being "wrong".

Therefore, I am not defending a liar. I think Alex believes what he is saying, ergo he is not deceiving me. He is telling me what he believes to be true. It is now up to me to do my own research on the subject.

Watcher, Lily...(you may be honest) do I strike you as an unintelligent thrall?

reply posted on 19-9-2009 @ 02:18 PM by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

reply to post by A Fortiori

No you do not strike me as an unintelligent thrall. But I think you are allowing yourself to be unintentionally mislead, it's something even the most intelligent of us can and most likely has done. You say he puts stuff out there that cannot be disproven yet every so called "FEMA camp" he has talked about that I can see have posts of people going there and taking pictures and seeing nothing resembling a FEMA camp. And like I spoke about earlier, his excuse for not having the disclaimer up when the article went up is a blatant lie *as I have said multiple times to you now*.

reply posted on 19-9-2009 @ 03:06 PM by Lillydale

Originally posted by A Fortiori
Not if you owned your own company.

DING DING! we have a winner.

Besides, this isn't about companies, it is about a guessing game and who comes the closest, unfortunately.

I thought it was about the trustworthiness of Alex Jones?

reply posted on 19-9-2009 @ 04:11 PM by A Fortiori

Originally posted by Lillydale

Originally posted by A Fortiori

Besides, this isn't about companies, it is about a guessing game and who comes the closest, unfortunately.

I thought it was about the trustworthiness of Alex Jones?

Trustworthiness is different than reliability. One is about intention and the other about accuracy.

reply posted on 19-9-2009 @ 09:11 PM by Lillydale

reply to post by A Fortiori

So you say he is reliable but not trustworthy?

I am pretty sure that is what I said.

We can count on him to lie. That is reliable, not trustworthy. I have no idea why I would think it is about him being honest, not consistently wrong.

reply posted on 19-9-2009 @ 09:36 PM by A Fortiori

Originally posted by Lillydale
reply to post by A Fortiori

So you say he is reliable but not trustworthy?

Nope. I've said before that I believe he believes what he is saying, therefore I don't think he is "lying". However, that does not make him reliable, but as I don't "rely" on anyone for the entirety of what I believe and I have fun fact checking it doesn't really matter to me as much as it does you and Watcher.

Alex entertains me and he motivates people in ways that those more quiet can not. That is not necessarily a bad thing in these times.

reply posted on 20-9-2009 @ 05:36 AM by Lillydale

Originally posted by A Fortiori

Nope. I've said before that I believe he believes what he is saying, therefore I don't think he is "lying".

You do realize that we have just gone in a complete circle.

Let us just assume that you are correct. Alex is an honest man simply reporting what he thinks is the truth. He truly believes what he is saying is true. He punctuates almost all of it with "this is admitted, folks" and "this is documented, people."

So....he either has the largest library of declassified documents and admissions on the planet or he is lying about some of it. It is one thing to believe a lie but he continuously reminds us all that he knows it is true because it has been proven to be true through admissions and documents.

Is he lying about the lies or the admissions? He has to be lying about something.

reply posted on 20-9-2009 @ 08:05 AM by A Fortiori

reply to post by Lillydale

It takes one letter to produce thousands of FOIAble documents. Ten letters would produce thousands upon thousands. I've put in FOIA requests before. Now that they have business intelligence software you can receive thousands of documents in a single file.

Write and ask for all documentation a particular agency has on "aliens". See what you get. You pay for FOIA requests, but if you go through your local Senator or Congressman you can sometimes get them for free.

Am I responding correctly to your implication? It seemed that you were implying that there is no way he has all of this documentation, and I am saying that it is possible that he does.

He may also have gone to groups like EPIC or the ACLU who already got their FOIAbles and you may get copies from them that are more organized and relevant.

The cool thing about FOIA requests is that sometimes the people that are declassifying something have to make a judgment call and then you can see fairly neat stuff in the documents.

reply posted on 20-9-2009 @ 07:03 PM by Lillydale

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by Lillydale

It takes one letter to produce thousands of FOIAble documents. Ten letters would produce thousands upon thousands. I've put in FOIA requests before. Now that they have business intelligence software you can receive thousands of documents in a single file.

Ok, I hate to say it but I guess I gave you way more credit than you deserved. You are no longer even responding to what I said.

Write and ask for all documentation a particular agency has on "aliens". See what you get. You pay for FOIA requests, but if you go through your local Senator or Congressman you can sometimes get them for free.

Am I responding correctly to your implication? It seemed that you were implying that there is no way he has all of this documentation, and I am saying that it is possible that he does.

He may also have gone to groups like EPIC or the ACLU who already got their FOIAbles and you may get copies from them that are more organized and relevant.

The cool thing about FOIA requests is that sometimes the people that are declassifying something have to make a judgment call and then you can see fairly neat stuff in the documents.

Um. No. This is getting real old and real boring real fast.

My implication is that if you are going to say things are admitted and documented then it follows that you either have those admissions and documents or you are lying. There is no gray area. If you say it is admitted without actually knowing whether or not that is true, that is a lie.

Alex cannot seem to produce one tenth of the things he claims are admitted and documented so......

Are you following yet? I am really sick of going from thread to thread to write 10 posts to answer basically the same two stupid questions again, and again.

reply posted on 21-9-2009 @ 12:12 PM by A Fortiori

Originally posted by Lillydale

Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by Lillydale

It takes one letter to produce thousands of FOIAble documents. Ten letters would produce thousands upon thousands. I've put in FOIA requests before. Now that they have business intelligence software you can receive thousands of documents in a single file.

Ok, I hate to say it but I guess I gave you way more credit than you deserved. You are no longer even responding to what I said.

I am responding to what you said in my own way. You said:

So....he either has the largest library of declassified documents and admissions on the planet or he is lying about some of it. It is one thing to believe a lie but he continuously reminds us all that he knows it is true because it has been proven to be true through admissions and documents.

I responded with the ease with which one may acquire the "largest library of declassified documents" on the planet. He posts the documents that he is discussing on the web, ergo he has documentation that he believes supports his theory.

ad·mis·sion (d-mshn)
n.
1.
a. The act of admitting or allowing to enter.
b. The state of being allowed to enter.
2. Right to enter; access.
3. The price required or paid for entering; an entrance fee.
4. A confession, as of having committed a crime.
5. A voluntary acknowledgment of truth.
6. A fact or statement granted or admitted; a concession.

Using definitions 5 & 6, then FOIAble documents are "admissions".

Write and ask for all documentation a particular agency has on "aliens". See what you get. You pay for FOIA requests, but if you go through your local Senator or Congressman you can sometimes get them for free.

Am I responding correctly to your implication? It seemed that you were implying that there is no way he has all of this documentation, and I am saying that it is possible that he does.

He may also have gone to groups like EPIC or the ACLU who already got their FOIAbles and you may get copies from them that are more organized and relevant.

The cool thing about FOIA requests is that sometimes the people that are declassifying something have to make a judgment call and then you can see fairly neat stuff in the documents.

Um. No. This is getting real old and real boring real fast.

My implication is that if you are going to say things are admitted and documented then it follows that you either have those admissions and documents or you are lying. There is no gray area. If you say it is admitted without actually knowing whether or not that is true, that is a lie.

Alright, here is the divergence: In my history of listening to Alex Jones, and granted this is not daily, I have yet to hear him discuss a topic and not post the FOIA'd document that he feels supports the case he is making.

I can site examples of show topics and the documentation that he feels supports his position.

www.infowars.com...
www.infowars.com...

That was two from a quick search--hey, it's lunch.

Therefore, in my experience I have not seen him "lie".

Am I right in assuming that you have heard broadcasts where he does not post the supporting documentation, and if so, would you be so kind as to give an example?

Alex cannot seem to produce one tenth of the things he claims are admitted and documented so......

Normally, I wouldn't be so rude, but it kinda stung that you insulted my intelligence so here goes...

Cite examples, please, where he has not produced supporting documentation because you are saying that he has a "fail" rate of over 90% and that is just not my experience.

Are you following yet?

Yes, Lily, I am following. Forgive me but those dumb dumb pills I took are some powerful stuff.

I am really sick of going from thread to thread to write 10 posts to answer basically the same two stupid questions again, and again.

What two questions did I ask you repeatedly that you must answer ten times? Perhaps you are confusing yourself with "me", as I have been the one answering the same question pertaining to his "reliability" over and over--which I have done. I stated emphatically that I feel he does provide documentation that he feels (not I said "he feels") supports his claim.

If you are so harassed by this thread why attend to it? Honestly, I am a little hurt that this has become so personal when I feel that other than disagreeing I have been quite affable.

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