Weapons for Survival Part 1

Weapons for Survival Part 1

Firearms

I want to examine at length a very popular subject in regards to survival here at ATS, Weapons...

I decided to look at Firearms first as looking at the thread topics, this seems to be very popular and very, I mean VERY misunderstood...

If you are interested, I would love to have you wonderful members interested post questions, suggestions, hints and information in this thread.

I will address as many as I can as we go along and I will also examine such relevant sub-topics as:::

1. Rife - Pistol - Shotgun (Or combination)?
2. Ammo. Type and amount among other factors.
3. Legal Issues. (Kind of a specialty)
4. Training.
5. Proficiency.
6. Caliber Discussion
7. Any other sub-topic of interest not covered above.

So stay tuned to this thread and I will begin shortly with an examination of which to carry. Rifle - Pistol - Shotgun, and why.

Semper

reply to post by semperfortis


Hi,

I'd like to hear Your opinions on choices. I have been looking into everyday items as weapons; as there are alternatives to firearms.

As far as the firearms.. I am in either a freezing, and moist climate a lot, or hot, and humid.

Both present moisture issues to a firearm.

In the freezing situation the lubricant is a severe issue; considering that I like a pump action, or anything other than automatic repeating weapon.

So, I guess my survival weapons all around would be: 870 Remington with 18" barrel, AK-47, ruger 10-22, glock 21.

My two overall preferences being the 870, and glock.

S, and F.

reply to post by sanchoearlyjones


I plan on posting a presentation on items 1 thru 7 above that will hopefully answer many of the questions you all have. I am certain it will stimulate even more questions but that is a good thing as well..

After each item I post, I will try and answer what questions I can.

Should have the first one tomorrow sometime.

Deal?

Semper

What would be your pick for a reliable hand gun?

Reliable rifle?

Here we go:

1. Rifle, Pistol or Shotgun?

The easy answer is yes...

Why just Yes?

Because they all fit any number of scenarios that involve survival.

The Rifle is heavier than the pistol but provides more energy into the target than the pistol and far more range then the other choices. The rifle is available in many different cartridges to suit different needs, ie.. Hunting, Protection and Combat. The thing to remember when choosing a rifle is to choose one in which you can carry the ammo you think you may need, one you can handle effectively and one you currently can afford. (Best quality for the money available)

The Pistol is portable for sure and the ammo is light comparatively but lacks range and energy to the target at distance. However one may consider such weapons as the Thompson Center Contender or the Remington XP 100. Limited to single action, but portable and rifle like effective. (I have owned both and they are excellent shooters)
It is also of note that in a survival situation the taking of large game at distance is not of primary concern. Small game taken at 50m is what one would strive for as they are more prolific and easier to handle and prepare.

The Shotgun is quite frankly a wonderful weapon. Using a rifled barrel and Sabot rounds, a 200m shot is not out of the ordinary and the availability of "Shot" rounds, increases ones effectiveness in taking small game exponentially. Again, one must deal with the portability issue as "Cut Down" models and "Pistol Grip" modifications decrease the effectiveness of the shotgun and I would discourage them.

I can only tell you how difficult it is to pack a long gun for days/weeks/months at a time when marching for long distance. Until you have experienced it, you can never really know the difficulty involved. It is obviously not impossible, but there is a factor of fatigue that must be accounted for. Especially when food sources are likely to be scarce and sporadic.

As for caliber.

If you are dead set on a large caliber; any caliber is a good as any other.

That is correct, I said it and I will stand by it. The only determination you must make is your ability to use the weapon.

The difference between the 308 being effective out to 1K and the 223 out to 800meters is not going to come into play in taking of the type of game you will be trying for to survive. If you are in Grizzly country, you may want to consider the larger caliber, or simply avoid them at all costs.

If you are set on a large caliber, pick a good one and become familiar with it. Shoot it, care for it and learn to love it and it will serve you well be it Remington, Winchester, Savage or Weatherby.

Note: I would never suggest nor advocate the AKs or their variants as they lack the accuracy and are far heavier than other choices available.

I for one will be armed with a .22 rimfire, semi-auto rifle. It is suitably accurate at the ranges I will need it, light weight with a composite stock and I can carry an absurd amount of ammo. I can also practice all I want as the ammo is cheap and available.

Pistols.

Again, consider the .22 rimfire. I have a nice Taurus .22 with a 6in barrel that is effective out to 75 yards or so and carries nicely on my belt. Again allowing me to carry hundreds of rounds in a backpack easily.

Large bore handguns are effective for personal protection and if you are set on one I can discuss them at length later. But for all practical purposes they are not survival weapons except in a combat situation and I will present to you that you can protect yourself with a .22 also. Maybe not as effectively, but there have to be compromises.

If I can't have the .22, I want a Shotgun.

Shotgun:

Any gauge will do although for a survival situation I want a 410. Sure a 12g is nice and the power is sweet, but all I need is the 410 and I can carry a lot more ammo. The slug shoots like a rifle and the shot shells are great for small game. I would choose the pump or semi-auto over the single shot for faster followup shots and in case I do find myself in a combat situation.
You will want to carry a supply of either slug or sabot rounds, depending on whether your barrel is rifled or not and a mix of Buck Shot and a game load of #5 down to #7-1/2.. I prefer #5 while it tears more meat up, it is far more effective on game larger than a rabbit but smaller than a deer.

More to come

Semper

reply to post by sanchoearlyjones


The 870 is an excellent weapon as is the Glock.. However for survival, the 10/22 is perhaps at the top if not the top of my list.. (Think of the amount of ammo you can carry)

I have both an 870 in 12g and in 410 and they are both wonderful shooters and I carry a Glock every day but prefer the 1911/45acp

Semper

reply to post by Tentickles


Read my post for more information

Just remember to choose a NAME brand. Remington, Glock, Winchester, Beretta, Colt etc...

They are all as reliable as the next one. just depends on personal choice.

But remember one thing.

A certain number of rounds of any kind of ammunition are going to fail. Bad loading, bad primers, you name it.. When a round misfires in an Auto, you have to clear that round and under fire I will present to you that even experts have trouble. In a revolver if you have a misfire, you just have to pull the trigger again.

So many people are eat up over thoughts of being "Outgunned" and they don't really even know what that means.

Point:

In a one on one situation, it only takes one round to end the fight.

Fact: Amateurs spray bullets.

My Fav Handgun for home protection; Ruger GP100

Semper

reply to post by semperfortis


I agree with so much .

but on a few points would agree with everything and disagree with the conclusion .

hand guns have only one role... " to stop a fist fight "
the common hand gun need only be fired fewer than 3 or four times ...or a shot gun should take its place .

the great value of the hand gun , it is quickly ready in use.
under the pillow , in the pocket , leaving the hands free .
given this , any revolver in .357 or 38 special is fine .


primary self defence is the shot gun.

you rack a round loadly and call out " honey , is that you "
the very sound of a pump shot gun being chambered is a warning .
anyone remaining will either flee or declare " yes dear , its me ! " or shout out " police officer ! hold your fire !" and suddenly a badge or identification pokes around the corner ...

any fool that is hostil and still present , is fair game .
and a thompson machine gun in full auto can fire about as meny bullets as a fast pumping '00' buck 12 gauge pump shot gun ...

for deffensive wepons... I would have to go with any pistol grip -pump shot gun .


rifles we will likly disagree on.

I would go with a 3o.o6 fluted - 34 inch barrel , timney target trigger , thumb hole stock , bolt action target rifle .
the one I have weigh's 16 pounds .
the scope is a 'atn' 12x-36x - 8omm , range finding - illuminated reticle .

this is a purely offensive , heavy sniper rifle .

my rifle sellection foundation is this .
at 900 to 1000 feet , if ever shot fired is a one shot kill , and I can fire 250 shots per hour ...I am good regardless of where I am .
be it a check point , road block , roof top , creek bed or hill side . I will see the bad guy , and remove him befor he is aware i am even there ...
also , the weight calms a fast beating heart , gives a level of precsion that lighter wepons lack , and removes the recoil in long term fights ( those lasting more than 5 to 10 minutes ) which will grant staminia ( the fuzzy feeling of confusion ) .

on its face , I am a heavy sniper / deffensive location protection and threat removal / urban warfare or suburban .

I am an old guy , and I am not planning on kicking in doors and jumping thru windows .

all I want is a radio plugged into my ear , a good reflector telescope to watch thru , and a cop to " angel " at his post directing traffic in and out of a check point ....

or the top of a shopping center or high school parking lot where any bad times that arrives will be quickly and swiftly removed , with one radio call that directs me to do with precsion something.

with any luck , simply being ready to act ,will make action unnessasary .

you only reason I have a lasor sight capablity on my target rifle is so I have the ablity to empress upon the target what their situation is .

Very good thread Semper!

Question 1) - Your thread seems to begin with the idea that
survival is about getting game to eat then wanders into
self-defense and fire fights. What are your "survival" parameters?
Are we talking food acquisition, zombie outbreak, militia activity
or all of the above?

I think people need to decide for themselves exactly what sitX
might be for them and equip accordingly. Ask yourself if it is only
for hunting game, self-defense at home or in the wild?

Myself I would include in the all-of-the-above category. The
majority of shots made in ANY SITX will usually be less that 100
yards, perhaps more like 20-50 yards.

It is quite likely that whatever sitX is that you will eventually run
out of ammunition (possibly excepting the.22 rimfire/.22 hornet
and .17 hmr)
Yes, the .22 caliber CAN kill a man with a well-placed shot but it
is not very likely. At best it could slow down any pursuers and
that would be all I could expect. I would carry a Ruger 10/22 myself
and rely on evasion and camouflage to avoid danger. If you were
to run out of ammo it might be important to have a gun with a
common caliber, not something that only uses "exotic" ones
(weatherby magnums for instance).

Whatever long gun you choose you will want:
A cleaning kit
gun oil
spare parts (for my Ruger 10/22 I carry an extra firing pin and extractor)
Tools and knowledge to replace those parts
A comfortable strap
Camo wrap for you weapon

While I have a Colt.45 1911/A1 I would choose my Tokarev 9mm
for the simple reason that my accuracy with the .45 is #@#!. The
.45 has way superior knockdown power but the issue of accuracy
makes the 9mm a better choice for me.

Last, but not least I have a take down bow. Very quiet, very
deadly out to 30 yards and I can replace the arrows with
natural materials - unlimited ammo! I carry a few extra
arrowheads and 3 bowstrings.

You mentioned the Thompson Contender. People should give
it consideration since you can change barrels and calibers or ammo.
Very flexible and portable. A good pair of barrels might be the
.410/.45 long colt and a .223 with scope.

Great thread! I can't wait to read what else you have to say on
this subject. S&F for you Semper.

Originally posted by readerone
reply to post by semperfortis

 

I would go with a 3o.o6 fluted - 34 inch barrel , timney target trigger , thumb hole stock , bolt action target rifle .
the one I have weigh's 16 pounds .
the scope is a 'atn' 12x-36x - 8omm , range finding - illuminated reticle .

this is a purely offensive , heavy sniper rifle .

You say you're an old man and yet you're going to lug around a
16lb rifle as an offensive weapon? I hope I'm as badass as you when
I get old!

reply to post by semperfortis


First and foremost, Congrats on your new FSME ranking Semper.

One question I have has to deal with APLP ammunition. Can you explain to me how this round can have armor piercing attributes on the one hand but low penetration "Sprawl" on the other?

Also, A friend wants to buy my AR, which I built with a lower receiver my father gave me for a birthday. Now I know this individual can't purchase this firearm at the gun shop due to an arrest he had 20 years ago. Doobie in Georgia type of arrest, nothing more or since. Are there any legal ramifications for me for making this sale? I really want the new X-15 Remmington and my Leopold will need a new home if I sell my Bushmaster.

Thanks in advance.

Nice thread Semper...

For me, My personal protection piece is a Sig Sauer P239 in .40S&W. This weapon is both accurate and reliable. It is also a smaller chassis and can be concealed if necessary. I do not intend to cart around alot of ammo for this piece - 100 rounds is more than sufficient I believe.

My shotgun is a Mossberg 590A-mil in 12ga with 20" barrel. Not a great hunting weapon, but is serviceable. This is the exact same weapon issued to the marines. I love the fact that it is lightweight and extremely reliable.

I also have a Mossberg Plinkster .22 with scope. Deadly accurate at 100m with this thing. Perfect for small game or sniping people. Ammo is dirt cheap and I can easily carry over a thousand rounds!

Finally, my "Ranged" weapon, or long-rifle preference is my Sig Sauer 556. Incredibly lightweight, reliable and accurate. I also have a Ruger Mini-14 that I love - it just weighs a little more than I would like.

Given my inventory, what would recommend in a bug-out situation and why?

reply to post by Asktheanimals


huggs .... I am a quite limber old guy ... and you would do well to be as fit as i am .

...that said...

my target rifle has a 400.oo barrel on it . the weiver base is welded onto the receiver and shoots a 1/2 MOA bench rested .

carry is a magor problem in both the rifle an ammo , but when I am target shooting , I have a common hand dolly .

I have noticed that carring it for more than 1 or 2 hours is not pleasent , and have to agree that the tactics of " packing "

what you carry defines who you are , who you are defines what you need to have with you .
never forget who you are design'd to be .

frankly speaking , there is very little chance you will be in a no holds barred , shoot'em up , and armed conflict in fully over grown forest or jungle .

riots or civil unrest happen so swiftly , that nothing can be done to prepare .

likly situations are then , 1) local 2) 30 minutes to 1 hour of alarm 3) badly oranized if at all 4) " a gun may not be enought to prevent violances , by just being present .... but not haveing a gun is a garrintee you can do nothing to stop violance if it does happen ."

it is my feeling that the greatest danger is not in " being able to shoot ." , it will be answering the question " how will I know it is time to start , how will I know when its time to stop " .... and greater still , the greatest of all questions... " when do I get to go home , if or when it does begin "

I assure you .

the single question on every ones mind will be ... " when will this end , so I can go home . "

Great thread. I always learn a lot from discussions like this.

The OP made the point that you need to practice and get familiar with your choice of firearms. One area that most people will not be familiar with -- if TEOTWAWKI comes -- is using small arms to deal with airborne threats. For those interested, you can get some good info from FM 44-8.

One other thought. If the Mad Max scenario develops, seems like we might be facing unmanned drones from people sitting on technology. Besides small arms, what's the best way to deal with drones? Has anyone developed cheap, effective (electronic?) countermeasures yet?

there are three good bits of counter measures .

take 3 SPST relays and 2 DPDT relays ... wire them in series so that they form a " frustrated chain "

each relay turning on the power to the coil in the next relay next to it....

if such a chain is made... they will rattle away as they turn on and off in a patter .

wire two automobile ignition coils to the the DPDT relays between the center post and one side of the coil


between the center and the other post make a acrh gap...
the resulting two spark gaps will cause so much radio static , no radio of any kind will receive anything but a roaring static...

any remotly controlled device will have its radio signal blocked for as far away as 5000 yards line of sight .

2) hearing aids ....
the human ear is designed to block out back ground rumbles and hiss .... with a hearing aid , you will hear the drone and know its time to take cover .

3) remote controlled toy aircraft...
add a 1/4 pound of gun pouder wrapped in deisel soaked newspaper tightly wrapped with a camar flash bulb inside as ignitor ...

connect the flash bulb to the "call button" led light from a multichannel FM walkie talkie ... and you can drive the toy plane into the drone and the resulting blast will distroy anything with in 500 feet of your remote controlled plane .

4) do not do anything that makes a drone intrested in you !

I've always felt that the best weapon is the one between the ears...

That said...

I have a little S&W .38spl revolver for my home, along with a double barreled 12 guage with #6 birdshot... Both simple, easy to use, easy to care for, and I hit what I aim at. I'd like to get something a little larger in a hand gun, but I don't need to.

that to my mind, is key...all the fancy bells and whistles mean less than nothing if you can't hit the target.

" when will this end , so I can go home ?. " in a TEOTWAWKI scenario wherever I am will be home. There won't be any going back since your
house will have been plundered if not burnt down.

My biggest question would be "who the hell is the enemy?"

As for drones I thought they flew at very high altitudes where you
would be unable to either hear them or disable them. Besides being
underground I don't think there would be any good countermeasures.

What are SPST and DPTP relays?

The best weapon for survival, is your mind.
Arm it well.

Originally posted by readerone
there are three good bits of counter measures .

take 3 SPST relays and 2 DPDT relays ... wire them in series so that they form a " frustrated chain "

Any possibility of a schematic? Do you propagate the spark noise with an antenna?





[edit on 30-8-2009 by praxis]

stainless steel-mini 14,beretta 92fs,walther ppk,marlin papoose.
planning on being on or near water.


Mod Edit - This is our private messaging, please : Mod Note: You Have An Urgent U2U- Click Here.


[edit on 30-8-2009 by elevatedone]