Wow nice stats.
Can you cut and past them here? From the web site they are on for all of us to see?
Did I mention in a war?
NO
Combat is a completely differant animal in and of itself...you know that.
I never said anything about war in my tread..
Please read again if you miss read.
Thanks for your service.....seriously, THANK YOU.
I am talking about a civil unrest or a martial law senerio,
Besides who has a company size element for SHTF?
A squad is pushing it, hell a fire team for most if they are lucky. That size might be the majority of the people in groups out there.
Weapons for Survival Part 1, page 4
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reply posted on 1-9-2009 @ 05:54 PM by dooper
reply to post by saltdog
War, SHTF, survival, it's all the same thing.
You want the stats, I'm sorry, but those stats are available from a number of sources, and you can dig them out for yourself if interested. Start with SF SOG, secret war in Laos, SOG recon teams, CCN, CCC, and CCS.
When I said only hits count, only hits count.
The only thing worse than a miss, is a slow miss.
Any size group, and a man goes down for each incoming gunshot, and it's real discouraging to the survivors.
I never said anything about using a company of men for recon. We only went out in small teams. A company would be detected a mile away.
Hiding is hiding. Traversing territory safely is the same whether in a war/SHTF/survival mode.
There is zero difference.
None.
Because no help is coming.
War, SHTF, survival, it's all the same thing.
You want the stats, I'm sorry, but those stats are available from a number of sources, and you can dig them out for yourself if interested. Start with SF SOG, secret war in Laos, SOG recon teams, CCN, CCC, and CCS.
When I said only hits count, only hits count.
The only thing worse than a miss, is a slow miss.
Any size group, and a man goes down for each incoming gunshot, and it's real discouraging to the survivors.
I never said anything about using a company of men for recon. We only went out in small teams. A company would be detected a mile away.
Hiding is hiding. Traversing territory safely is the same whether in a war/SHTF/survival mode.
There is zero difference.
None.
Because no help is coming.
reply posted on 2-9-2009 @ 02:28 AM by readerone
reply to post by dooper
may I suggest , what any one did 35 or 40 years ago is good as advice , but who you are today is quite diffrent .
the world was diffrent then , is diffrent now , and will be diffrent when the SHTF .
jungles , forests and urban/suburban are common in some concepts and totaly diffrent in others .
the form follows function concept suggests , reduce the problem to its simplest elements , define the outcome desired in specific's , design your answer for the outcome .
it is not enought to survive the moment , you need to survive your future as well .
may I suggest , what any one did 35 or 40 years ago is good as advice , but who you are today is quite diffrent .
the world was diffrent then , is diffrent now , and will be diffrent when the SHTF .
jungles , forests and urban/suburban are common in some concepts and totaly diffrent in others .
the form follows function concept suggests , reduce the problem to its simplest elements , define the outcome desired in specific's , design your answer for the outcome .
it is not enought to survive the moment , you need to survive your future as well .
reply posted on 2-9-2009 @ 10:15 AM by saltdog
reply to post by dooper
I agree with readerone.
I do not doubt the hell you endured and went through.
I do know that it is true the world has changed, in a lot of ways...good and bad.
I'll try to put it the way that I was meaning for you Dooper.
If you are bugging out alone or stranded at work and wanting to get to your home and your family.
Lets say your at work and are 30 miles from home.
The road is gridlocked. You are on foot with your vehicle bag.
You are not wanting to get into the house, you want to get by the house to yours 10 miles away. You are after all not walking down the road. You are cutting through yards and fields.
You only want to get through the area, not take it over.
The other guy is just wanting to scare you away and protect what is his.... well you just want to get home.
why do you need to end him if he is warning you?
He is just defending what is his and wants to keep his, as you would be...it's not your fault that he sucks at shooting. It would be your good fortune.
You are after all crossing HIS land. No differant than the moonshiners wanting to keep you away from the stil.
Just because there is lawlessness does not mean that your morals are thrown to the wayside, because in this day and age it is all around us, just watch the news.
If you go down that road than you are making yourself what you are protecting against.
Don't get me wrong. There is a time and place but in the senerio I was meaning, it was not...to me anyway.
The only time I want to attack a building using MOUT (military operation urban terrain) Room clearing and such is never.
The life expectancy is very low. 7/1...meaning that 1 dumb ass, can half ass defend his home and take out 7 well trained men before he is neutralized.PERIOD
I am a Certified MOUT Instructor...machinegunner, close combat instructor, along with several others complements of the USMC.
Why would you take those chances if you are just passing through?....and wanting to just get to your loved ones.
Great tread.... Dooper thank you for you time and service.
I agree with readerone.
I do not doubt the hell you endured and went through.
I do know that it is true the world has changed, in a lot of ways...good and bad.
I'll try to put it the way that I was meaning for you Dooper.
If you are bugging out alone or stranded at work and wanting to get to your home and your family.
Lets say your at work and are 30 miles from home.
The road is gridlocked. You are on foot with your vehicle bag.
You are not wanting to get into the house, you want to get by the house to yours 10 miles away. You are after all not walking down the road. You are cutting through yards and fields.
You only want to get through the area, not take it over.
The other guy is just wanting to scare you away and protect what is his.... well you just want to get home.
why do you need to end him if he is warning you?
He is just defending what is his and wants to keep his, as you would be...it's not your fault that he sucks at shooting. It would be your good fortune.
You are after all crossing HIS land. No differant than the moonshiners wanting to keep you away from the stil.
Just because there is lawlessness does not mean that your morals are thrown to the wayside, because in this day and age it is all around us, just watch the news.
If you go down that road than you are making yourself what you are protecting against.
Don't get me wrong. There is a time and place but in the senerio I was meaning, it was not...to me anyway.
The only time I want to attack a building using MOUT (military operation urban terrain) Room clearing and such is never.
The life expectancy is very low. 7/1...meaning that 1 dumb ass, can half ass defend his home and take out 7 well trained men before he is neutralized.PERIOD
I am a Certified MOUT Instructor...machinegunner, close combat instructor, along with several others complements of the USMC.
Why would you take those chances if you are just passing through?....and wanting to just get to your loved ones.
Great tread.... Dooper thank you for you time and service.
reply posted on 2-9-2009 @ 03:43 PM by emsed1
reply to post by EyesWideShut
Sounds like a good assortment.
My 9mm is an FNH FNP-9. 16+1
My rifle is an SKS with a few mild tweaks.
Still shopping for a boomstick but I have my eye on a Mossberg 590 or a surplus police 870.
edit -
Good point about the pistol too. A pistol should only be used to fight your way to a long gun!
[edit on 9/2/09 by emsed1]
Sounds like a good assortment.
My 9mm is an FNH FNP-9. 16+1
My rifle is an SKS with a few mild tweaks.
Still shopping for a boomstick but I have my eye on a Mossberg 590 or a surplus police 870.
edit -
Good point about the pistol too. A pistol should only be used to fight your way to a long gun!
[edit on 9/2/09 by emsed1]
reply posted on 2-9-2009 @ 03:54 PM by jibeho
reply to post by emsed1
You can't go wrong on that 870 especially if it has some police mods. already done to it. I have my dad's old 870 Wingmaster and a newer 870 Marine Magnum that I bought used a couple of years ago. Great guns with loads of possible upgrades and spare parts available.
You can't go wrong on that 870 especially if it has some police mods. already done to it. I have my dad's old 870 Wingmaster and a newer 870 Marine Magnum that I bought used a couple of years ago. Great guns with loads of possible upgrades and spare parts available.
reply posted on 2-9-2009 @ 05:20 PM by dooper
reply to post by readerone
I would suggest that the basic principles for traversing any unknown territory in an unknown political or survival situation hasn't changed in 10,000 years.
Cover, concealment, stealth, not following an anticipated line of approach, maintaining freedom of movement, and an offensive defense are principles that will never change, regardless of season or terrain.
I don't care if you're in a city trying to get home or in the country trying to evade other predators. It's all the same.
Every generation thinks that the world has changed because they just became aware of it.
Right.
I would suggest that the basic principles for traversing any unknown territory in an unknown political or survival situation hasn't changed in 10,000 years.
Cover, concealment, stealth, not following an anticipated line of approach, maintaining freedom of movement, and an offensive defense are principles that will never change, regardless of season or terrain.
I don't care if you're in a city trying to get home or in the country trying to evade other predators. It's all the same.
Every generation thinks that the world has changed because they just became aware of it.
Right.
reply posted on 2-9-2009 @ 05:22 PM by EyesWideShut
Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by readerone
Every generation thinks that the world has changed because they just became aware of it.
Quote of the week and in serious consideration of going into the signature box!
reply posted on 2-9-2009 @ 05:24 PM by gambon
Originally posted by emsed1
reply to post by EyesWideShut
Sounds like a good assortment.
My 9mm is an FNH FNP-9. 16+1
My rifle is an SKS with a few mild tweaks.
Still shopping for a boomstick but I have my eye on a Mossberg 590 or a surplus police 870.
edit -
Good point about the pistol too. A pistol should only be used to fight your way to a long gun!
That you shouldnt have put down in the first place ............
[edit on 9/2/09 by emsed1]
[edit on 2-9-2009 by gambon]
Is that an sks simonov if so you lucky b'stard
[edit on 2-9-2009 by gambon]
reply posted on 2-9-2009 @ 05:31 PM by jibeho
reply to post by gambon
Get your hands on a cricket bat. Predrill multiple holes through the face of the bat towards the head. Then sink a 3 inch framing spike in to each hole. You can alternate nail direction to cover both sides of the bat if you want to get tricky.
Now you have a nice CQB weapon.
If you can't buy knives, invest in some metal working files and a bench grinder. Tool steel can make a great blade. Let your imagination go from there. Just don't tell anyone
Get your hands on a cricket bat. Predrill multiple holes through the face of the bat towards the head. Then sink a 3 inch framing spike in to each hole. You can alternate nail direction to cover both sides of the bat if you want to get tricky.
Now you have a nice CQB weapon.
If you can't buy knives, invest in some metal working files and a bench grinder. Tool steel can make a great blade. Let your imagination go from there. Just don't tell anyone
reply posted on 2-9-2009 @ 05:35 PM by dooper
reply to post by saltdog
I want to apologize to the OP and others. I THOUGHT the survival topic was more along the lines of TSHF.
Thus my input.
And that's all I'm going to say about that.
A jungle with a couple thousand specifically looking for you, if anything, is a more concentrated version of what anyone would be facing in any survival environment.
A predator is a predator. It can have two legs, it can have four. Some big bastards love to take you from behind, some from above. Some from below.
Some "survivors" will hole up for a while in a fixed location, some will haul ass, some will try to get from point A to point B as quickly as method, terrain, and potential "predators" allow.
This would be a prime time to keep your head on a swivel, move carefully, constantly check your six, hold to concealment as much as possible, don't walk down the middle of the road, and the one question that should be asked every fives seconds is, "what is the worst possible thing that can happen right now, and from which direction would it likely come from?"
THAT'S what better be occupying your time. The finest, biggest, baddest firearm in the world won't be worth crap if you run into someone who is afraid, sees you first, and decides you're a potential threat.
I'll leave you guys to it, and once again, my apologies.
I want to apologize to the OP and others. I THOUGHT the survival topic was more along the lines of TSHF.
Thus my input.
And that's all I'm going to say about that.
A jungle with a couple thousand specifically looking for you, if anything, is a more concentrated version of what anyone would be facing in any survival environment.
A predator is a predator. It can have two legs, it can have four. Some big bastards love to take you from behind, some from above. Some from below.
Some "survivors" will hole up for a while in a fixed location, some will haul ass, some will try to get from point A to point B as quickly as method, terrain, and potential "predators" allow.
This would be a prime time to keep your head on a swivel, move carefully, constantly check your six, hold to concealment as much as possible, don't walk down the middle of the road, and the one question that should be asked every fives seconds is, "what is the worst possible thing that can happen right now, and from which direction would it likely come from?"
THAT'S what better be occupying your time. The finest, biggest, baddest firearm in the world won't be worth crap if you run into someone who is afraid, sees you first, and decides you're a potential threat.
I'll leave you guys to it, and once again, my apologies.
reply posted on 2-9-2009 @ 05:52 PM by EyesWideShut
reply to post by emsed1
The 590 is a great gun , If I didn't have my 500 that's what I'd get. You have a decent arsenal going too , fabrique nationale makes a great product If I could justify buying the Five-seveN, I would. I've worked with the P90 and it was fun , awkward ergonomics but fun none the less. I really like that 5.7 Round and the 20 round magazine. The recoil is unbelievably nonexistent.
The 590 is a great gun , If I didn't have my 500 that's what I'd get. You have a decent arsenal going too , fabrique nationale makes a great product If I could justify buying the Five-seveN, I would. I've worked with the P90 and it was fun , awkward ergonomics but fun none the less. I really like that 5.7 Round and the 20 round magazine. The recoil is unbelievably nonexistent.
reply posted on 3-9-2009 @ 06:57 AM by jibeho
reply to post by EyesWideShut
The Five Seven is wild. I tried the demo at my local range once. It is a quality piece of craftsmanship. After looking at the round and then firing the gun, I was amazed at how little the recoil was. I would compare it to the recoil of a 9mm or probably less. The 5.7 round actually weighs less than a 9mm and reminds me of the .22WMR in overall dimension and energy. Anyway, Interesting round and gun. Not in my budget.
The Five Seven is wild. I tried the demo at my local range once. It is a quality piece of craftsmanship. After looking at the round and then firing the gun, I was amazed at how little the recoil was. I would compare it to the recoil of a 9mm or probably less. The 5.7 round actually weighs less than a 9mm and reminds me of the .22WMR in overall dimension and energy. Anyway, Interesting round and gun. Not in my budget.
reply posted on 3-9-2009 @ 12:28 PM by Asktheanimals
reply to post by gambon
Yeah, if you can't acquire a gun then your next best way to reach out and touch someone would maybe be a bow or a crossbow. Perhaps even a crossbow pistol for home defense. Aside form that jibeho's cricket bat extraordinaire sounds deadly.
DOOPER - Others could learn a lot from you guys if you could dumb down the nomeclature like "watch your 6" for instance. I know it means checking your backtrail but perhaps not everyone here would. By keeping it elementary others without your knowledge stand to learn much, including myself.
I salute you for your service to our country sir, thank you! You seem to have a LOT of knowledge about recon tactics - were you LERP/recon?
[edit on 3-9-2009 by Asktheanimals]
Yeah, if you can't acquire a gun then your next best way to reach out and touch someone would maybe be a bow or a crossbow. Perhaps even a crossbow pistol for home defense. Aside form that jibeho's cricket bat extraordinaire sounds deadly.
DOOPER - Others could learn a lot from you guys if you could dumb down the nomeclature like "watch your 6" for instance. I know it means checking your backtrail but perhaps not everyone here would. By keeping it elementary others without your knowledge stand to learn much, including myself.
I salute you for your service to our country sir, thank you! You seem to have a LOT of knowledge about recon tactics - were you LERP/recon?
[edit on 3-9-2009 by Asktheanimals]
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