Christianity conversion FOR ALL

reply to post by Totakeke


"You're misunderstanding sin. To God, sin is eternal. It seems finite to us on Earth, but to God, sin is forever. Since God is loving but also just, He can't allow sin in Heaven. Therefore, we all belong in Hell because we've all sinned and there's no way we could get into Heaven. God knew this, so He gave man a way to be saved. He sent His son, Jesus Christ, to Earth to die for our sins. All that's required for salvation is faith in Jesus Christ and that you repent of your sins.

Good works won't get you into Heaven, which is why Ghandi couldn't get into Heaven without Christ if he tried; nobody can. Romans 3:23 KJV "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

The only way the murderer or child molester (or, for that matter, the liar, the adulterer, the thief, or the blasphemer) could get into Heaven was if they placed their faith in Christ and were truly sorry for their sins."

No, I understand your view of sin quite well. I simply don't agree and can not see a logical being, much less an omnipotent logical being, holding a grudge for all eternity because we didn't do something that he says we were supposed to. Or the same being seeing that someone has lived a good life and tried to help people whenever they can, and still think that that person needs to be burned for eternity.

I will now point out this: people had a way to "be saved" before jesus. It was a lot harder, sure, and that is why they made it more simple. Its a lot easier to get flies with honey you know... And it's a heck of a lot easier to get people to do something when they think they can be lazy about it.

Also, not everyone needs to be saved. This is a construct made to give motivation to get people to convert others. How can you not see this?

And it is ignorant to assume that all people, simply by being born, are deserving of hell. What about children? Babies die all the time. They have not sinned, they can't even speak, let alone use "gods" name in vain or murder or covet. Guess what? The bible says they go to hell. Even if they have had a baptism, they still haven't accepted jesus into their hearts. They would not know how to. I simply can not get behind a being that would condemn my sweet, innocent 6 week old son to being burned for eternity, were he to die tomorrow. I know, for a fact and even according to your bible he has not sinned. He poops sleeps and eats, with a little bit of crying mixed in. He is not deserving of that fate, and it is highly illogical to think that he is simply because he was born and is human.

If you can trust such an entity, then yeah, I most assuredly don;t want to wind up in the same place as yo when we die.

And a SyroPhoenecian Lebanese Gentile came up to him and said 'Son of David ! Have Mercy upon me !'

But 'Iesous' said to her,

'Woman, the Bar-Enasha ('son of Man') was sent ONLY to the LOST SHEEP of the ELECT of the HOUSE OF YISRO'EL ..and anyway, since when is it right to take the Children's Bread out of their mouths and throw it to the DOGS under the table?'

1st Gospel ('Matthew' whoever he was) chapter 15:22-26

Doesn't sound like Christianity for ALL to me. And dragging that deluded Mithraist influenced Greek Speaking Saul of Tarsus (the capital city of Cilicia, where 'Roman' pagan blood dunking Mithraism was introduced into Rome from Persia) who never met 'Iesous' (R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean Nazir) in the flesh but only in dreams and visions (like my Cook !) doesn't change the NON-unversiality of Nazorean Christianity, which was meant for the 'Lost Sheep of the House of Israel in the Last Days' ONLY (Greek: EUTHEOS).

Basically the man 'Yehoshua' hated the Goyim ('gentiles') and anything connected with them, even calling them DOGS like that poor Syrophonecian lebanese woman who had the nerve to come to him for help for her bleeding daughter (the same term 'UNCLEAN DOGS' is widely used in the very ANTI GENTILE language found among the fragments in caves 1-11 of the socalled Dead Sea Scrolls) but then again, he lived at the 100th anniversary of the invasion of Pompey (BC 63 to AD 36, the year of the Insurrection, resulting in his Execution by Crucifixion, a SPECIFIC penalty for Armed Sedition against the Maiestas of the Divine Emperor Tiberius) into Judaea, under a severely brutal occupation which lasted until Judae was eventually ground to powder after two failed revolts, the first of the two starting at the 70th year following the death of Herod when Jerusalem was annexed to Roman Judaea under 'direct rule'.

If you study your history, and read the Greek words placed into the Good Rebbe's mouth and translate them back word for word into his original Galilean Aramaic tongue, what a shock -- no universalism at all-- only salvation for the Lost Sheep of the Elect of the House of Yisro'el. And anyone who tries to make 'christianity' universal is following Saul of Tarsuss and not the original Nazorean Christianity of 'Jeeezuzz' during the 2nd Temple Period.

When the man spoke of 'saving' (an Aramaic play on words on his name, Yehoshua, (YHWH is [my' Salvation') he was referring to the role of the Jewish Messiah to 'ingather' the ELECT of the LOST SHEEP of the HOUSE OF YISRO'EL Scattered amongst the Gentiles' which is why he was in Lebanon in the first place, inspecting the LOST SHEEP there just under the border of his so-called Kingdom which 'stretched to the River Euphrates' in Phoenicia.

Anyone trying to prove 'universality' for Christianity and/or 2nd Temple Judaeism (or even Rabinnic Judaeism) would have a VERY hard time to prove it from the Greek words placed into that man's mouth in the (4) canonically approved Greek Nicene-stamped Gospel material...

Just a thought...

reply to post by ganja

holding a grudge for all eternity because we didn't do something that he says we were supposed to.

Like I said, God doesn't see sin the way you and I do. It's eternal to Him. Also, it's impossible for us to completely uphold God's Law. We can try and we should try, but we'll never be perfect.

Or the same being seeing that someone has lived a good life and tried to help people whenever they can, and still think that that person needs to be burned for eternity.

Once again, Romans 3:23 KJV "3For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

We've all sinned. One sin is enough to make you guilty under God's law. Nobody's lived a good life; we've all lived filthy, sinful lives. The only thing that can completely wash away our sin is the shed blood of Jesus Christ, which He shed for everyone.

And it is ignorant to assume that all people, simply by being born, are deserving of hell. What about children? Babies die all the time. They have not sinned, they can't even speak, let alone use "gods" name in vain or murder or covet. Guess what? The bible says they go to hell.

www.gotquestions.org...

Even if they have had a baptism, they still haven't accepted jesus into their hearts.

Catholicism teaches infant baptism, not Christianity. While baptism isn't a requirement for salvation, it is an outward profession of faith in Christ which is done after acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior.

I simply can not get behind a being that would condemn my sweet, innocent 6 week old son to being burned for eternity, were he to die tomorrow.

www.gotquestions.org...

I know, for a fact and even according to your bible he has not sinned.

We're all sinners, even at birth. I'll quote from that qotquestions.org page that I linked.

In Psalm 51:5, David wrote, “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” David recognized that even at conception, he was a sinner.

[edit on 27-8-2009 by Totakeke]

The subject of this thread started out to be "why do Christians preach about Hell?"

The fact is, satan does exist. He was jealous of God, didn't want to worship Him. He was cast from Heaven and given dominion over the earth. God created us with free will, just as satan had free will to defect, we have the same free will.

Here is a video clip of a very devout satanist. She would defend her master at all costs. She is deceived though because God is The Creator and He promises to put an end to satan's reign on earth, and the "bowels of the earth" will be his eternal home.

reply to post by Totakeke


Ok, name ONE sin my son has committed ... ill be waiting. Also, even if they do not need to be have a baptism (which by the way , i thought it was funny how you said catholics like they aren't christian...lol!), they still can not think in their cute little heads "I accept Christ," the main requirement to get into heaven, so they still burn according to the bible. You can wish that upon your own kids if you want, but no christian will EVER lay a hand on my child unless they wanna pull back a bloody nub!

*edit - Sounds like David had some ISSUES! lol

- That link even says that no where in the bible does it state an age at which a child has to make a decision about jesus. The bible says accept jesus, or burn. Show me where it doesn't.

[edit on 27-8-2009 by ganja]

Originally posted by Bombeni
The fact is, satan does exist. He was jealous of God, didn't want to worship Him. He was cast from Heaven and given dominion over the earth. God created us with free will, just as satan had free will to defect, we have the same free will.

Thanks for the video. Satanists are pretty whack too, IMHO...but the Satanist in the video was pretty cute even though her Twilight-esque makeup would make any self-respecting Goth cringe in horror. Kids these days, I swear!

I have a serious question though...

If the God Christians believe in created the Heaven and the Earth and all things within them...then did he not create Satan? (Or are Christians inferring that their God is not the Creator of All Things?)

If the Christian God is Omnipotent and Omniscient, then did he not know what Iblis/Lucifer/Abaddon/Apollyon/Beelzebub/Belial/Leviathan/Satan would do and not only allowed it but encouraged it? (Or are Christians inferring that their God is neither Omnipotent nor Omniscient?)

If Lucifer was one of the Seraphim or Arch-Angels of God then he was subservient to God as they were not granted Free Will as humans were (which is why the Hosts of Heaven supposedly had contempt for the Sons of Man according to the Bible). So would that not make either Lucifer an extension of God's Will or at least make God complicit (and share in the guilt) in what Lucifer does?

Not to mention that if a God would hold Man accountable for falling for the temptation of his own creation, serving his own Will, would that not be tantamount to entrapment?

When proselytizing to one who does not have belief or faith in the Christian God, how can one use the argument of a Hell or Satan to encourage them to have a belief and faith in the Christian God when the belief in Hell and Satan both require a Christian belief to begin with? If a person doesn't believe that the Christian God created the Heaven and the Earth then there is no belief that a Hell or Satan exist either!

reply to post by ganja

Ok, name ONE sin my son has committed ... ill be waiting.

We're all born sinners, guilty of inherited sin. Like David said in Psalm 51:5 (which I quoted before), "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Also, even if they do not need to be have a baptism (which by the way , i thought it was funny how you said catholics like they aren't christian...lol!), they still can not think in their cute little heads "I accept Christ," the main requirement to get into heaven, so they still burn according to the bible.

There's nothing in the Bible about priests, the pope, the infallibility of the pope, praying to Mary, praying to saints, or the sacraments. Catholicism is not Christianity because it does not follow what the Bible says. It thinks you can be saved by doing works, which the Bible doesn't teach.

Anyway, the Bible doesn't say what happens to babies and small children if they die. But a loving God knows how to handle things like that.

From that same gotquestions.org page:

Of this we are certain: God is loving, holy, merciful, just, and gracious. Whatever He does is always right and good.

That link even says that nowhere in the bible does it state an age at which a child has to make a decision about jesus. The bible says accept jesus, or burn. Show me where it doesn't.

Like I said, the Bible doesn't talk about it, but I for one trust that God knows what to do.

Originally posted by fraterormus

Originally posted by Bombeni
The fact is, satan does exist. He was jealous of God, didn't want to worship Him. He was cast from Heaven and given dominion over the earth. God created us with free will, just as satan had free will to defect, we have the same free will.

Thanks for the video. Satanists are pretty whack too, IMHO...but the Satanist in the video was pretty cute even though her Twilight-esque makeup would make any self-respecting Goth cringe in horror. Kids these days, I swear!

I have a serious question though...

If the God Christians believe in created the Heaven and the Earth and all things within them...then did he not create Satan? (Or are Christians inferring that their God is not the Creator of All Things?)

If the Christian God is Omnipotent and Omniscient, then did he not know what Iblis/Lucifer/Abaddon/Apollyon/Beelzebub/Belial/Leviathan/Satan would do and not only allowed it but encouraged it? (Or are Christians inferring that their God is neither Omnipotent nor Omniscient?)

If Lucifer was one of the Seraphim or Arch-Angels of God then he was subservient to God as they were not granted Free Will as humans were (which is why the Hosts of Heaven supposedly had contempt for the Sons of Man according to the Bible). So would that not make either Lucifer an extension of God's Will or at least make God complicit (and share in the guilt) in what Lucifer does?

Not to mention that if a God would hold Man accountable for falling for the temptation of his own creation, serving his own Will, would that not be tantamount to entrapment?

When proselytizing to one who does not have belief or faith in the Christian God, how can one use the argument of a Hell or Satan to encourage them to have a belief and faith in the Christian God when the belief in Hell and Satan both require a Christian belief to begin with? If a person doesn't believe that the Christian God created the Heaven and the Earth then there is no belief that a Hell or Satan exist either!

First let me say that I don't have all the answers, I find many things about life to be a mystery. I believe that whatever I am in need to understand has or will be made manifest to me by God at the right time. That may sound too convenient to some but it is true; I believe more than I believe the sun will rise tomorrow, that God of Abraham is The Creator and sent His Only Son as a Redeemer for those who chose to accept. Yes, God created satan, and I don't fully know or understand why/how it happened the way it did, maybe it is not for me to know in this earthly form. And maybe it's just none of my dang business, maybe it's between God and whoever He decides needs knowing. Yes, God gave us free will, in my opinion it is because He doesn't want a kingdom of robots who were programmed to love and obey Him. He also sent His Son to take the sin of the world. Why anyone questions that or rejects it is beyond me. Above all, I believe that God is more than anything, LOVE. I know that I would tangle with a rabid mountain lion to save my child, so I can't really imagine what God The Creator is capable of in His Mercy and Goodness. I do believe hell exists and there will be souls in satan's kingdom, there are many there already I believe. But I also believe there will be many who stand before God, pinching themselves, falling to their knees. I'm no preacher so that is just my take on it, from the experiences I have had. I believe God is more merciful than we can even begin to comprehend.



[edit on 27-8-2009 by Bombeni]

reply to post by one_man24

Interesting perspective. This is why I love being skeptical towards authority because it is extremely easy for someone to claim something and add a, "Trust me - I'm a scientist." remark at the end.

I believe the difference between claims like that and claims from religion are that the former can be proven right or wrong if need be. Whereas the claims from religion seem to be offering the truth, but when questioned, allow no room for testing to see if the claim is indeed true or not - at this point it is suggested that we go by faith in order to see the truth.

"He who has ears, let him hear!"

To which I would have to reply: He who has a mind, let him think.

reply to post by Water-tastes-good


Interesting how the person who wrote "Fear + Guilt = Love" said that they were obviously being sarcastic because that statement is so far from the truth, yet you thought they were being serious (or at least agreed to it) and defended the "equation".

I'm kind of scared that you believe those two things can equal love.

reply to post by nunya13


"Interesting how the person who wrote "Fear + Guilt = Love" said that they were obviously being sarcastic because that statement is so far from the truth, yet you thought they were being serious (or at least agreed to it) and defended the "equation"."

Yep, I agreed to it.



"I'm kind of scared that you believe those two things can equal love."

Ok. Thanks for letting me know how you feel.

[edit on 27-8-2009 by Water-tastes-good]

Originally posted by fraterormus
"How convenient for you. It sounds like your religion is a haven for criminals then."

[edit on 27-8-2009 by fraterormus]

Wow! That sadly makes some sense. It reminds me of the part in "Religulous" when Bill Maher is in the church trailer with a bunch of truckers and whatnot. Almost everyone of them said they had committed some crime or were into drugs/porn, whatever...

How many "born-agains" have said that they were on some sort of a downward spiral before they were saved by Christ?

Why do people always seem to be at their lowest when God "saves" them? How come someone who has a wonderful and happy life who couldn't ask for anything more (like me) doesn't just wake up one day and decide to convert or become "born again"? Maybe it's because they (I) don't feel like anything is missing in my life. I don't need religion to tell me I'm good. I don't need to be a Christian to feel the love of the creator, who/what ever that may be.

I've known a couple people who have converted to Christianity literally over night. Both of them (who don't even know eachother) were at extremely low points (one was sitting in jail after being picked up for a DUI and the other was just dumped by his daughters mother after they'd been together two years and lost his job) and they converted to Christianity and went on to try to convince everyone they know (including me) that should also seek out God because he loves us so much.

Both of these people HAVE NOT changed for the better. They are still the same exact people except now they are OBSESSED with God and church. One even had an affair with a man that attended the church she started going to and left her family/husband of about 15 years. She once told me the devil was working through me because I had the audacity to compare Jesus to Buddha (which hurt me to the point of tears that a "friend" could say that to me...what a great Christian).

The other has done various things to go out of his way to hurt someone I know. Too many to explain. He has made my niece who was two at the time kiss the Jesus sticker on his car and she thinks every single book she sees is a bible (proving that if a child doesn't even grasp the concept of a bible why would you start teaching them things from it). He obviously tries to brainwash her into believing.

Sometimes, I believe that if there is a devil or some negatively aligned force competing for souls against some positively aligned force, that it is this being/force that gets a hold of these people at their lowest most vulnerable times.

They wind up alienating everyone in their life with their new found religion and passing judgment on them, buying Christian CD's, clothes, jewelry...money is the work of the "devil". Jesus could give a crap if your wearing a t-shirt with a picture of him on your shirt, of plastered him on your car, or like to wear jewelry depicting the most heinous torture that can be committed against another human being.

reply to post by nunya13


Life's great mystery to me is, why are people who don't believe in God obsessed with those that do? I don't believe in the reptilians but you couldn't pay me to read one of the threads about them much less type an entire manifesto about it.

reply to post by Water-tastes-good


LOL... I sense some sarcasm

I was being honest...it was interesting to me and it scares me. I wasn't trying to be insulting...just so you know.

reply to post by Bombeni


She apparently has problems with the people who call themselves Christians. They draw her away from God. Which in my opinion doesn't really make a whole ton of sense to me but I respect it nonetheless.

reply to post by nunya13


"LOL... I sense some sarcasm"

No sarcasm in there. I really do not care what you think. (no offense)



"I was being honest...it was interesting to me and it scares me. I wasn't trying to be insulting...just so you know."

That you were and thanks for the reply. I don't find anything scary about it but if you do then you do. I can't change how you feel. Hey, no worries.

Originally posted by open_eyeballs
reply to post by Hazelnut

 

Fear + guilt = love

do you honestly believe that?

That has to be the worst definition of love I have ever seen...

No but he thinks it is a great way to mock the believer in such a God using his own anti-Christian ideas

reply to post by iHateMasses


Look at the bright side, they only use guilt and fear now as conversion tools! It used to be much worse, just ask any Aztec, Mayan, or Druid (not Neo-Druid)!! Oh, wait... You can't. They were either all converted or MURDERED!

Originally posted by Bombeni
I believe God is more merciful than we can even begin to comprehend.
[edit on 27-8-2009 by Bombeni]

Yeah, and that is what is the part that I believe most Christians use to convert others. This idea that we go around saying burn baby burn to anyone and everyone is the pitch of an atheist trying to convert to their religion. If it isn't a religion then it must be a hair color or a stamp in there collection but what ever they say it isn't, they sure try hard to get people to not be it, what ever it is they are so busy not being or not doing lol

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


So if I may ask, do you just have a problem with how Christians try to convert people or is it much more than that?