Christianity conversion FOR ALL

The OP's complaint is valid and Christians should take it seriously. Even I cringe when I witness this style of conversion attempt.

It's important because it's symptomatic of a larger problem with American protestantism, it's theology of salvation. I don't want to scandalize protestants so all I'll say is that their view of salvation is incomplete or un-perfected. This results in their adherents coming off more as salesmen than servants of Heaven and pushes away more people than they "save."

Originally posted by open_eyeballs
reply to post by Hazelnut

 

Fear + guilt = love

do you honestly believe that?

That has to be the worst definition of love I have ever seen...

I know you were not asking me this question but I'm going to answer it. I have to say yes, I do believe that definition when it comes to God. Let me elaborate.

I love my grandfather. He is the only man in my family I can ever really take wisdom from. My father is an alcoholic so going through life by his wisdom and rules won't make mine any better. He has taught me how to be a father by me learning to do the exact opposite of what he does. I am very fortunate though to have a man as good as my grandfather to learn from.

You see, I fear what my grandfather may say because I know he may be right. He is very smart. I feel guilt because when I used to live with him, I would get into trouble and he would show me that what I did was wrong by telling me a story about him committing that same mistake and his outcome. You see, he cares enough about me to let me know what I did was wrong. He loves me enough to make me feel guilty. To make me fear him when I know I am going against him. He tells me these things because he loves me. That is the very same reason with God. He is that same way. I got punished when I did something wrong, same with the Israelites and God. He is our father. He is a parent to us and regardless you believe in God or not, His rules have always been for the good. Do not murder. Do not lust in your heart. Do not use His name in vain. I'm not going to misuse my mother's name in a sentence that is not postive. As much as she is a negative person she is still my mother. Only one I got. I would never do that to her. Anyway, I hope you see where I am coming from. Have a great day.

reply to post by Hazelnut


I agree with you and I meant no disrespect. Your relationship with God is between you two.

reply to post by Hazelnut


That question is never simple. Knowing who God is can be very difficult, but a person will never really know God if they force Him conform to their own presuppositions. I think that is something we can all agree on. I put my faith firmly in the God of the bible, because He has commanded me to worship no other, and because of what He has done for me. He has lifted my chains, and freed my soul. O Death, where is thy sting? lol. He has revealed Himself to me through His word, and He has spoken to my heart. Does He reveal Himself to others, in other ways? Who can know the mind of God? That's the wonderful thing about Him. We each have our own personal relationship with Him.

reply to post by monkcaw


I have to agree with your post, and with the OP's, to a certain extent. There are a lot of Christians who don't act the part. I blame it on people being too lazy to find out what God says for themselves. If Martin Luther hadn't done his own research, we'd still be paying the pope to forgive our loved ones so they could get out of purgatory and into heaven, a doctrine that is found NOWHERE in the bible (purgatory). Sad to say, most "Christians" don't even know what it means to be a real Christian.

Personally, I feel that their main method of conversion is taking little kids that are impressionable and brainwashing them.. I was raised Christian and that is my perception of how things were done to me now that I look back. Who in their right mind would threaten a child with being burned alive for infinity?? Or tell them that things such as lust, which is human nature, is "evil" and a "sin". Oh, and it's all out of "love" ... Lol... If I were in a relationship with someone that wanted to burn me alive, I'm pretty sure I could get a court order to tell that person to keep far away from me..

I agree with the guy that commented above.. it is most certainly fearmongering. It's so effective that our own government has employed this tactic.

Originally posted by iHateMasses

Nothing against Christians, but every time someone has tried to convert me to Christianity, it always started, and ended with the following three.

1. Do you know your lord a savior?
2. You need to learn who your god is because he loves you.
3. Don't you want to be saved?

Now if I were to try to convert someone to something I believed would help them in their lives, telling them that a fiery death or else, would be the last thing to say. But that's just me

I have nothing personal against Christians. I even devoutly practiced Christianity for a year while conducting the Rite of Abramelin. I can respect Christians and their right to believe and worship as they see fit, but I draw the line and take offense when they try to convert, proselytize, or force their religion and beliefs upon me through the enacting of "Christian" laws in our government.

When they come to my house and attempt to convert me, I will let out a friendly laugh. If that doesn't discourage them and they ask "Do you know your Lord and Savior?" I nod my head and say "Yes, yes I do. I live by the motto 'Gnothi Seauton' thus I know myself quite well". This usually perplexes them.

When they tell me that "You need to learn who your God is because he loves you" I reply "As I stated, I know him well as he is I and I do try to love myself very much". At this point they usually start getting wise and ask "Have you read the Bible?". I tell them "Of course I have, many times, in Hebrew, Greek and English. Have you read it?" They usually get defensive at this point and say "Then how can you think that you are God?" I smirk and laugh and say "Psalms 82:6 and John 10:34"

At this point, feeling rather uncomfortable, they change the subject and say "Do you know that Jesus died for your sins?" Again, a polite laugh before I tell them "That was rather silly of him as I am without sin. Besides, doesn't human sacrifice seem rather barbaric?" Usually they will respond with "But no one is without sin!" To that I respond "Oh really? What about Mosheh/Moses? What about Hanokh/Enoch? What about Jesus? These were all men who without sin according to your Bible? Sounds like someone has a guilty conscience and wants to believe that everyone else has done wrong too! What kinds of sin did you do to get such a guilty conscience? Did you touch a small child inappropriately? Did you kill someone? Did you sleep with your best-friend's wife?" At this point, they are beyond defensive and blurt out "My sins have been forgiven and washed away because I have accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior in my heart and have been baptised!" As much as I try to be polite, I can't help myself from responding with "How convenient for you. It sounds like your religion is a haven for criminals then."

The more persistent will try the tact of describing a beautiful pastoral scene of Heaven and ask me "Wouldn't you like to live there one day?" Since they haven't gotten the clue by this point I get blunt and respond "Are you going to be there?" When they say "Of course, I certainly hope so!" I reply back "Then no thank you, I don't think I would really want to be there." If they start spouting Brimstone and Hellfire at that point, it just reinforces my own personal belief that Christianity certainly isn't for me.

Usually, after one of these conversion attempts, I don't get any more knocks on my door for about a year.

To me, one's spirituality is personal. It doesn't need to be justified by converting others to your own beliefs. If you need that kind of justification, then you should really be reflecting upon your own motivations and sincerely considering the possibility that perhaps your choice in religious beliefs aren't right for you. If one is certain and steadfast in their faith, then they need not do anything further but live true to their beliefs.

I suppose that's why I have more respect for religions that don't proselytize. They seem more devout and confident in their faith, practicing what they believe and content to live a holy life by example.

[edit on 27-8-2009 by fraterormus]

I've always had a strong calling to help "save" people through out my life. Probably caused by my fathers ambition for his sons to live a proper life, but something was different for me, he named me Evan.
Now I'm no Evangelist nor even take "Born Again" Christianity seriously because I think everyone should be able to come to their own conclusions and not be judged for it and to some extent realize that it could very well just be a tool.

People are smart. That is why I think we've come this far and possibly the knowledge we've gained from the past is the only real reason it works. Chaos.

Actually just the other day I had the urge to try and make a post on here, asking anyone interested to study with me into what it really is that can make you feel like something is true and should be given faith. Why are humans so susceptible to any kind of a notion of God/Spirit. But then I remember how I've learned of the Ego, Pineal gland, and other functions our own body has in order for us to manipulate our surroundings and fell there is no real need in my life to prove or discover anything, I have faith that I will learn by dynamic destiny. Whatever happens, happens.

I often wonder if it is "Jesus" that saves or is it just the influence that we can direct our selves after death that does. I firmly believe that our existence is tantamount to being a constant discovery finely tuned with the universe in order to further it's own consciousness. In other words its all a hologram, on another level, in another frame of perception.

reply to post by one_man24


Hey, since you put your faith in god because he says so, why not choose Islam or Satanism for that matter? Why christianity? Because you were brought up to be afraid of disagreeing with "god"? Too afraid to let down your family, who are most likely also christians? Guilt fear fear and more guilt... How can you not see that it is designed to make people complacent and ignorant of truth? Not to mention the glaring contradictions in the bible, such as if god is perfect and therefore infallible, and angels dont have free will, how could one have gone against him unless god made a mistake? After all, isn't free will the exclusive domain of god and man? And I'm not even gonna get started on my view that your god is, technically, a slave owner...

If I may suggest guys, don't let this religion stuff restrain your relationship with God. As a Christian, I use my name as a title. An ambassador of God. Not the name of a religion. Here is what Jesus said on this subject in Matthew.

Matthew 15:8-9

"These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men."

NIV

If I may suggest, go directly to the Bible for your teachings. Ask God Himself to be your teacher. Don't go to your Church's Discipleship Training Program which I mentioned in another post. Man can only teach you stories from the Bible. Not the way to life. Only God can help you with that. Sorry for using the same verse twice. Verse 8. You should still go to church though. Worship is always a good thing with the community. Have a great day guys.

EDIT: I want to say this too. Who do you think you should trust more, God or man? Don't take my word for any of this. Ask the Lord yourself.

[edit on 27-8-2009 by Water-tastes-good]

reply to post by one_man24


You say it is funny how people don't believe in something written 2000 years ago eh? Y'know, there ARE other texts written well before the bible... why should you believe that one instead of an even older one, if older so obviously means so much. Hey, why not throw out all the books and information of the past 2000 years and go back to things as they were? You know why? Because it would be stupid. Instead of medicine we would be back to things like bloodletting or worse... no thank you.

*edit for typos

[edit on 27-8-2009 by ganja]

Originally posted by open_eyeballs
reply to post by Bombeni

 

We go on after this life, we have a choice to make on this earth, about who to serve and it is God or Satan.

That is just the thing...many of us do not see the world in a black and white manner...good and evil... god and satan...

there is too much gray between god and satan..they share to many qualities...

remember..according to the Bible who Satan is...Lucifer, the angel of light..

who would have thought the angel of light (created by an omnipotent God, according to the Bible) would be the one to decieve us ignorant humans..

another great example of why there is so much confusion when it comes to religious beliefs and why their are so many interpretations, and they do not add up well...

i don't believe in mythical beings or the writings of men from 2000 years ago to be truth, as it pertains to how someone should live their life. human understanding of the world around him at that period of time, can be compared to a 3 year old of today knowing how an automobile functions. he can understand it has wheels and it moves, but beyond that he can not process any other information. remember, there are still 19 to 21% of the current population of the US, that still believes the sun rotates around the earth.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by Water-tastes-good


"I want to say this too. Who do you think you should trust more, God or man? Don't take my word for any of this. Ask the Lord yourself."

Lols... yah, who SHOULD we trust more? Some person out in the middle of nowhere, years and years ago, that says "Hey, GOD told me to write this... no really, these are his words!!! I'm divinely inspired!!" Sounds like a nutjob to me.. and you can't say that if someone did that today, you wouldn't walk as fast as you could to get to the other side of the street. I'd still like to know what makes the bible any more valid than any other religious text... Not to mention the various edits that have been made on "gods word" through the years by man.. you don't honestly know whether you are reading gods, satans, or Crazy Joes words. Most likely, you are reading the words of something that made at least a quick few bucks from writing them.

Also, I'll talk to "god" if I ever see him... spent too much time praying and never hearing a single peep to waste any time on it. Gotta say I'm glad I didn't hear anything now, as that would have made me a crazy person

*edit: "These people honor me with their lips" Yeah sounds like a man wrote it for sure... lmao!!

[edit on 27-8-2009 by ganja]

reply to post by ganja


I think you are misquoting me friend. To say that I put my faith in God because "He says so" is a gross mistatement, and I don't appreciate your tactics, if they were deliberate. If you think you're picking out a misinformed Christian here, who is led around by the nose, your wrong. I've done as much soul searching as any gnostic, pagan, atheist, etc on this site. I've done as much research an any biologist, writer fighter, physicist, etc on this site, although I am not an expert on any subject, by any means! I have had my life and my faith put through the paces, gone to disbelief and back again. Why do I put my faith in the God of Abraham? That is not an easy question to answer, but I'll try. I know something is wrong with this world, and nothing has spoken to my heart, mind, soul, as the bible has. You see a book of manmade stories, controlling you, holding progress back. I see a wonderful collection of truths, painting the journey of God's people through time, and learning along the way. I see a God, who warns His people about the traps of this world, and offers them hope. Why do you think you and I have such differeing viewpoints? Surely we are talking about the same book? We are all people mate, loved equally by God. I think that on the whole, God and the bible are misunderstood. Even if someone doesn't believe, if they just understood His word, I don't think anyone would say the terrible things they do about my Deliverer.

reply to post by ganja


"Lols... yah, who SHOULD we trust more? Some person out in the middle of nowhere, years and years ago, that says "Hey, GOD told me to write this... no really, these are his words!!! I'm divinely inspired!!" Sounds like a nutjob to me.. and you can't say that if someone did that today, you wouldn't walk as fast as you could to get to the other side of the street. I'd still like to know what makes the bible any more valid than any other religious text... Not to mention the various edits that have been made on "gods word" through the years by man.. you don't honestly know whether you are reading gods, satans, or Crazy Joes words. Most likely, you are reading the words of something that made at least a quick few bucks from writing them."

Well, there really is nothing remotely funny about this and what did I do to provoke your attitude? Why I get so many replies making fun of what I believe I'll never understand. No, I would not call anyone a nutjob because I don't enjoy name-calling. I would rather be friends with the man than power-walking to the other side of the street. Now when did this come into an argument on the validity of the Bible? I thought I was addressing christian conversions? Go to another thread to discuss this topic. I do trust the Bible.





"Also, I'll talk to "god" if I ever see him... spent too much time praying and never hearing a single peep to waste any time on it. Gotta say I'm glad I didn't hear anything now, as that would have made me a crazy person."

I pray you do talk with God and I know you will. In either this life or the next. Now, what you and God talked about is none of my business. That's why prayer is supposed to be done in private. I will say if you prayed, then I will believe you. But then you say you didn't get anything from it. I believe that is not the case. I think you did. I say give the Bible another go. If you don't, then I pray you find what you are looking for.





"*edit: "These people honor me with their lips" Yeah sounds like a man wrote it for sure... lmao!!"

....but their hearts are from me." I would think about that. Don't mock it.

[edit on 27-8-2009 by Water-tastes-good]

reply to post by one_man24


"I think you are misquoting me friend. To say that I put my faith in God because "He says so" is a gross mistatement, and I don't appreciate your tactics, if they were deliberate. If you think you're picking out a misinformed Christian here, who is led around by the nose, your wrong. I've done as much soul searching as any gnostic, pagan, atheist, etc on this site. I've done as much research an any biologist, writer fighter, physicist, etc on this site, although I am not an expert on any subject, by any means! I have had my life and my faith put through the paces, gone to disbelief and back again. Why do I put my faith in the God of Abraham? That is not an easy question to answer, but I'll try. I know something is wrong with this world, and nothing has spoken to my heart, mind, soul, as the bible has. You see a book of manmade stories, controlling you, holding progress back. I see a wonderful collection of truths, painting the journey of God's people through time, and learning along the way. I see a God, who warns His people about the traps of this world, and offers them hope. Why do you think you and I have such differeing viewpoints? Surely we are talking about the same book? We are all people mate, loved equally by God. I think that on the whole, God and the bible are misunderstood. Even if someone doesn't believe, if they just understood His word, I don't think anyone would say the terrible things they do about my Deliverer."


You said that you believe because he has commanded you that there are none other before him. Not too much of a misquote if you ask me. Just go back an read your own statements.

As far as your "research as a biologist," can you explain to me how someone could survive in the stomach of a whale? It is simply not possible, and it is also a glaring example of just how full of anything BUT truth the bible is filled to overflowing with.

Also, i would like to add that i am not "picking out" anyone. If I see someone that I believe is misinformed, i will try and inform them of the way things really are, to the best of my ability. Isn't that what all christians think they are doing? The only difference is that people like myself base their beliefs on FACTS, things that are true.

And I still can't see us all being loved equally when 90% of people would be, according to the bible, burning forever. Unless of course you think that repenting for a life full of evil on your deathbed grants you a path to "heaven" more than living a life of helping people and doing good things would. Oh wait christians DO believe that... If your god is loving, then he is also very very unfair, and possibly psychotic. I just refuse to accept that a decent being would allow a CHILD MOLESTER or a MURDERER into heaven but send Ghandi to hell.

And BTW, don't assume that just because someone disagrees with you that they don't "understand his word." I understand it quite well, and I say, no, it's full of lies and non-truths. And I am not trying to say terrible things, I am speaking as honestly and truthfully as I can.

reply to post by Water-tastes-good


I'm not making fun of you or anything like that. You my friend are getting defensive. And BTW I raise my points in response to you asking who we should trust more. if you don't wanna know don't ask! So, maybe you should be on another thread, for bringing up the validity in the first place

*Also.. though I may use humor in my writing I also find nothing humorous about this subject. It is simply a tool, as anger is in a fight.

Originally posted by open_eyeballs
reply to post by Bombeni

 

We go on after this life, we have a choice to make on this earth, about who to serve and it is God or Satan.

That is just the thing...many of us do not see the world in a black and white manner...good and evil... god and satan...

there is too much gray between god and satan..they share to many qualities...

remember..according to the Bible who Satan is...Lucifer, the angel of light..

who would have thought the angel of light (created by an omnipotent God, according to the Bible) would be the one to decieve us ignorant humans..

another great example of why there is so much confusion when it comes to religious beliefs and why their are so many interpretations, and they do not add up well...

Since I have been a member here I have been made well aware of how many are turning from God, but still the subject comes up so much that I believe people are still looking for the truth. I found the truth, ok so to not ruffle feathers I will say I found MY truth long ago. It didn't just land in my lap either, my family never attended church even once when I was growing up. The only thing I can tell people is PRAYER. I spent years, maybe 5 or 6, I dunno, praying, talking to "whoever" God was and that is how I found Him and His Son Jesus. One day I suddenly realized that thru prayer and questioning I had developed a connection to God and the truth was etched in my heart. I could no more deny Him now if someone put a shotgun to my head. I have tried, when I was at very low points in my life. But like one of those boppa bears, he was still there when I came down off my high horse.

reply to post by ganja

I just refuse to accept that a decent being would allow a CHILD MOLESTER or a MURDERER into heaven but send Ghandi to hell.

You're misunderstanding sin. To God, sin is eternal. It seems finite to us on Earth, but to God, sin is forever. Since God is loving but also just, He can't allow sin in Heaven. Therefore, we all belong in Hell because we've all sinned and there's no way we could get into Heaven.

God knew this, so He gave man a way to be saved. He sent His son, Jesus Christ, to Earth to die for our sins. All that's required for salvation is faith in Jesus Christ and that you repent of your sins.

Good works won't get you into Heaven, which is why Ghandi couldn't get into Heaven without Christ if he tried; nobody can. Romans 3:23 KJV "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

The only way the murderer or child molester (or, for that matter, the liar, the adulterer, the thief, or the blasphemer) could get into Heaven was if they placed their faith in Christ and were truly sorry for their sins.

[edit on 27-8-2009 by Totakeke]

reply to post by ganja


"I'm not making fun of you or anything like that. You my friend are getting defensive. And BTW I raise my points in response to you asking who we should trust more. if you don't wanna know don't ask! So, maybe you should be on another thread, for bringing up the validity in the first place."

If this is a thread about different ways of conversion, then don't you think that a man telling you to trust God more than man is a conversion?

Example: A man knocks on your door. Gives you a Bible and asks "Do you know who your Lord and Saviour is?" You go along with what they say and they tell you how to get closer to God. I say trust God other than man.

It is a different way of conversion. I think that that post was perfectly adequate for this thread. The question you should have asked, if any, was "Why trust God other than man?" Not, "how can I trust a book that is 2,000 years old", then go off about how silly it is. This is faith based, not physical evidence questions al-a-mode. I say try it that way. Go after God yourself. Don't listen to a preacher tell you you're saved. Listen to your heart. That is me telling you to approach this aspect a different way. It works a lot better if you're a person who calls yourself a Christian but don't necessarily know what is up with God. As yourself, an atheist, try it this way. Don't listen to what man says. Go for the Bible and God yourself. Let Him speak with you. Let Him take you on a tour of your heart. Only He knows what is in there.





"*Also.. though I may use humor in my writing I also find nothing humorous about this subject. It is simply a tool, as anger is in a fight."

Thanks for being clear. Appreciate it.

[edit on 27-8-2009 by Water-tastes-good]