Freemasonry is unChristian

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posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 11:07 PM
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Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

You need a religious text to serve as a lesser light on your altar


Wrong again.

The three Great Lights of Masonry are the Holy Bible, Square and Compasses. You really need to get your facts straight because you are coming across as someone who is just looking to stir the pot with ignorance.




posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 11:25 PM
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Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
But that's just the christian way of looking at things. Masons don't recognise organised religion. They only ask that you believe in a supreme being, it doesn't matter who the supreme being is.
Minor correction: Some individual Masons don't recognize organized religion. The majority do. Masonry as an organization doesn't affiliate with any particular religion, organized or not. Masonry teaches that if an individual member believes in an organized religion he should be active in his church; if the individual member is more Deistic, that he strive to have a better relationship with God through his solitary practice.


But Isn't that really just a play on words?
It's a bit like saying, "I'm not a plumber, I have no knowledge of plumbing but give me a minute and I'll fix that leak in your bathroom. . !"


You need a religious text to serve as a lesser light on your altar


Please, I beg, I plead that someone, anyone, mason- non mason- butcher, baker, candlestick maker, anyone please come forward and describe to me what, "You need a religious text to serve as a lesser light on your altar!", means. . . Were you speaking in tongues when you wrote this or perhaps having a psychotic episode? It's just a bunch of words thrown randomly together which when read means absolutely nothing! Mind you it sounds like fun so I'll give it a go. . .

"To understand that which is understandable you need to stand where no man should ever stand. . ."

And if you understand that you're in big trouble!



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 11:34 PM
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reply to post by Darth Lumina
 


When have you heard, through all of the satanic songs played on the radio today of one praising God? How many times have you heard "Runnig with the devil" over and over again. Christianity is a minority, it did nothing to the word today. all you have to do is listen to the radio, the proof is infront of us but we have been so desensitized it's become acceptable to rape at a concert. To be unchristian is disrespectful and defiles God.



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

You need a religious text to serve as a lesser light on your altar


Wrong again.

The three Great Lights of Masonry are the Holy Bible, Square and Compasses. You really need to get your facts straight because you are coming across as someone who is just looking to stir the pot with ignorance.


One word,
Jahbuhlun.
"I will always hail, ever conceal,and never reveal, and of the arts, parts, or points of the hidden mysteries of Ancient Free Masonry..."
anything which is secret cannot be called Christian, because you are not allowed to hide anything from God. you may say, "i'm not hiding anything from God" But that oath of obligation states you hide something and from the shadows stems corruption a deceit.
The name Jahbuhlun has 3 symbols representing a composit God made up of 3 subordiante deities. The masonic material identifies the 3 as Yahweh, Baal, and Osiris. Logically, the name should be spelled Yah-Baal-On, but Duncan's Masonic Ritual and Monitor admits that over the years the spelling has been "corrupted" by Freemasonry untill it reached it's current form. Facts straight.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 01:22 AM
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reply to post by BeccaFace
 

Actually, God sees all so really you can't hide anything from God, and anything said in the Oath pertains to keep secret from MAN, not God so their is no intent to hide anything from God.

You should get your facts straight. This is one reason I can't stand some theorists, they only get some facts, but try to glue them together as if that is how they are laid out. It's like someone taking scissors to a puzzle set to make the picture they want, not the one that is really there.

[edit on 9-8-2009 by KSigMason]



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 02:24 AM
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reply to post by Evangelical
 


What is the problem with it being un-christian?
Is it simply the problem that you may be Christian, and thus , are intolerent of other faiths?
Religions or ideas of divinity are Human made interpretations interpretations of God-head anyhow.
As much as man-made fraternities try, they can never be truly divine; otherwise we would all be Gods!?
Religions are twisted by men at the best of times (like politics); yet they all contain the essence of divinity.

Masonry is for some an attempt to experience the divine outside of the normal pomp and intolerent bravado of mainstream religion. Thats fine by me.....



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 08:05 AM
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So Freemasons don't care about Hiram Abiff?


Well, about as much as you care about Little Red Riding Hood.

Hiram is simply a story with a lesson. Hiram means nothing. The lesson is profound.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 08:23 AM
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Originally posted by BeccaFace
One word,
Jahbuhlun.


OK, let's settle this for once and for all.

I as a mason cannot break my oath. I may not even write, mark or indent any any secret word used by masons, according to UGLE ritual.

So, I will write:
Jahbuhlun
Jahbuhlon (Some say)
Any more?

If it a secret word of the Masons, I am violating my oath, since I may not write, mark or indent any secret word of Freemasonry.

Happy?

It's not a word used in Freemasonry, as far as I, an English mason know.

And yes, I have done the side (high, by your interpretation) degree which many claim use this word, if that's what you're going to ask next...

[edit on 9/8/2009 by Saurus]



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 10:20 AM
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Originally posted by BeccaFace
The name Jahbuhlun has 3 symbols representing a composit God made up of 3 subordiante deities. The masonic material identifies the 3 as Yahweh, Baal, and Osiris. Logically, the name should be spelled Yah-Baal-On, but Duncan's Masonic Ritual and Monitor admits that over the years the spelling has been "corrupted" by Freemasonry untill it reached it's current form. Facts straight.


No where in Duncan's Ritual is there any reference to what you posit. Nice try at inventing fictious text to support your biased theological viewpoint.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 10:34 AM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by BeccaFace
The name Jahbuhlun has 3 symbols representing a composit God made up of 3 subordiante deities. The masonic material identifies the 3 as Yahweh, Baal, and Osiris. Logically, the name should be spelled Yah-Baal-On, but Duncan's Masonic Ritual and Monitor admits that over the years the spelling has been "corrupted" by Freemasonry untill it reached it's current form. Facts straight.


No where in Duncan's Ritual is there any reference to what you posit. Nice try at inventing fictious text to support your biased theological viewpoint.


I gave up arguing over the finer points of freemasonry a while ago. I don't think you get it do you Augustus? The anti mason (not the those who ask serious questions but those who print nonsense) can accuse you lot of literally anything because nobody will take your reply serious. If it was true of course you would deny it, and if it is rubbish some uninformed people will believe it purely because you do deny it. You can't win, we anti masons can't win, so what's the point of starting these threads?



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Wrong again.

The three Great Lights of Masonry are the Holy Bible, Square and Compasses. You really need to get your facts straight because you are coming across as someone who is just looking to stir the pot with ignorance.


Aw, C'mon Augustus. You're being too generous.

That fact was patently obvious since this {ahem} individuals first pathetic post about Freemasonry.


You're casting pearls, Brother. Casting pearls.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 04:27 PM
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Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
I gave up arguing over the finer points of freemasonry a while ago. I don't think you get it do you Augustus? The anti mason (not the those who ask serious questions but those who print nonsense) can accuse you lot of literally anything because nobody will take your reply serious. If it was true of course you would deny it, and if it is rubbish some uninformed people will believe it purely because you do deny it. You can't win, we anti masons can't win, so what's the point of starting these threads?


The funny thing is, Mint, these threads have existed since ATS itself and it's a vicious circle. The newbies come on here shouting "Jahbuhlon" and "devil worship" and "my grandfather's next door neighbor's ex-wife's step-Uncle's cousin's weimaraner was a high-ranking Masonic Rosicrucian Illuminati and a follower of Aleister Crowley" Like you say, you can't win. We can't win. But still for some reason it continues.

To be honest after several years on ATS I find it terribly humorous. After all, the Anti's won't ever believe what *I* say because I'm a Mason. But they make claims about the Masons based on what *others* have said.

I, and other Masons, post our responses base on actual EXPERIENCE as Masons. The Anti's (and the nuts....God knows there are plenty of those here) can say what they like about Masonry. Only actual Masons REALLY know. Ya know?

But, like I said, it's entertaining. At least it is to me.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 05:09 PM
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I agree with Senrak. Some of the allegations against Freemasonry are simply hilarious.

The funniest one I heard recently on ATS was the allegation that we use goats - yes, real live goats - in our initiations in the Blue Lodge. I can just picture a bunch of elderly Masons in one of our major cities trying to escort a real live goat into a Masonic Lodge. Hilarious.

What is kind of scary is that non-Masons actually believe these hogwash stories. Cracks me up.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 07:35 PM
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Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
I gave up arguing over the finer points of freemasonry a while ago. I don't think you get it do you Augustus? The anti mason (not the those who ask serious questions but those who print nonsense) can accuse you lot of literally anything because nobody will take your reply serious. If it was true of course you would deny it, and if it is rubbish some uninformed people will believe it purely because you do deny it. You can't win, we anti masons can't win, so what's the point of starting these threads?


I understand where you are coming from Mint but I do get it. There are several people who post here regularly who have stated that they came to Above Top Secret with, if not an out right bias, a deep suspicion of Masons and Masonry. Through debate or explanation they were challenged to uphold their viewpoints, they have since done their own information gathering and reached a conclusion which ran counter to their original viewpoint. If I can convince one person to set aside their bias and do their own research instead of relying on the rehashed and nonsensical theories they came here with then I will be happy.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 07:46 PM
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I'm really interested in the Truth.

The masons here seems to be very mind-open and intelligent guys like the ones I know. The title of our thread if "Freemasonry is unChristian", so let's focus on that for a while.

Please let's discuss.

1) A quick search on Google Books mentions what seems to be the, according to those same books, the god of freemasonry. Seems that is not the same trinity of God, Son and Holy Spirit.

Are all those books correct?

2) Is freemasonry a religion?

From Steven Tsoukalas' Masonic Rites and Wrongs:


In The Encyclopedia of Philosophy, William P. Alston lists nine “religion-making characteristics.”

1. Belief in supernatural beings (gods).
2. A distinction between sacred and profane objects.
3. Ritual acts focused on sacred objects.
4. A moral code believed to be sanctioned by the gods.
5. Characteristically religious feelings (awe, sense of mystery, sense of guilt, adoration), which tend to be aroused in the presence of sacred objects and during the practice of ritual, and which are connected in idea with the gods. 6. Prayer and other forms of communication with gods.
7. A world view, or a general picture of the world as a whole and the place of the individual therein. This picture contains some specification of an over-all purpose or’ point of the world and an indication of how the individual fits into it.
8. A more or less total organization of one’s life based on the world view.
9. A social group bound together by the above.34 Alston later states that “when enough of these characteristics are present to a sufficient degree, we have a religion.“


The rest of the book Steven Tsoukalas explains, in his view, how masonry has all that 9 caracteristics.

3) Seems that masons have to make oaths. Let's see what Jesus said about oaths:

Matthew 5:33-37


"33 Again you have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ 34 But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil."


Source: www.trinitystudycenter.com...

Once again, I'm not far from a layman in teology and philosophy, but appears that freemasonry and Christianity are incongruent, considering the above.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 08:44 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 

Talking to masons is infuriating. It takes an absolute ago to get them to really open up and consider your opinions and then suddenly someone else comes along and says, "Masons are all blood sucking, devil worshipping, reptiles who abuse kids," and thats the conversation over! For the next two to three pages all you get is bickering and name calling, and before anyone says it, yes, I've been there. . .

I'm interested in masonrys connection with the Illuminati? I'd love to understand why both black masons and white masons are happy to be segregated and kept apart? And I would be thrilled to bits if ever the day dawned when I could understand the mentality of your normal mason. Why does he want to belong to a fraternity? Can't ordinary men become better men without the aid of freemasons? And I would be cock-a-hoop if someone would care to share with me why some masons consider the craft a religion while others fly off the handle at the mere suggestion?

So please, lets keep the argument real. I dont like freemasonry but I now understand that not all masons are evil or un-godly. No more accusations of child abuse, being satanists or shape shifting reptiles. . . Maybe then we'll begin to understand why some feel the need to belong to this contrevertial practise.



posted on Aug, 10 2009 @ 12:02 AM
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reply to post by Mintwithahole.
 


Someone else can get to those questions but I'll give my opinion on the race thing. I am a member of Prince Hall and I simply chose it because it felt "right" to me. Also although I am half white I was basically raised around all black people so I admit I identify with and relate to them more than than I do with most white people. I also admit I feel more comfortable in a lodge with mostly black people (we do have a few white members at my lodge, although from what I know its pretty rare for them to choose prince hall). But make no mistake about it I am NOT a racist at all and as far as I know all the brothers in my lodge arent either.

As far as I know black people were never really allowed to be Freemasons in the US (I'm not sure about elsewhere, I've studied a lot though and havent heard of a black mason til Hall) until 1775 when Prince Hall came along and he was made a Master Mason, I believe a few other guys did too. And then it just grew from there. So like I said for me and many other black guys it just feels "right" to be prince hall masons. We are extremely proud of our heritage and beginnings in masonry in the US and have the utmost respect for Prince Hall. Because a long with getting blacks allowed to be masons (although Prince Hall masons werent "officially" recognized until quite recently I believe) he was also a civil rights activist of the time.

I and all my buddies who are masons arent racist whatsoever, although us choosing prince hall does basically boil down to a race thing, I admit. But also as far as I know in most states blacks who want to be masons are accepted and aren't forced to be princehall at all, its just many choose to be. Also in every country for the most part I believe there is no segragation.

We do everything pretty much EXACTLY the same as other masons. Although there are very small differences in some of the rituals and we way we do certain things and we tend to be more strict about certain things (dress code...etc). But none of this makes them right or us wrong or the other way around (in my opinion atleast), they are just subtle differences. You can find info all over the net about it.

Anyways I hope I don't come off as racist or anything from this post, because I am as far from a racist as possible. I love and respect all. I have no hate. Also I believe I said to you in another thread, "We don't want to unite!"... we are proud to be prince hall freemasons!

And to kind of answer your other question about why would anyone want to become a mason. Me personally I studied masonry and related things since I was about 15 or 16 or so (I'm 26 now) and also although I'm not close with my parents both sides of my family have masons going back pretty far. Especially on my mothers side who was from London and most that side of the family is all over europe, my mothers the only one that came to the states. So I always felt "drawn" to it, its hard to explain. Also like many other people have said I like the brotherhood aspect and the comraddery (Sp?). I have many friends who aren't masons and I socialize with them but its not quite the same. Also its kind of hard to explain but it keeps my life... balanced, I guess is the word. I used to have a pretty hectic life and since I joined almost a year ago everything has calmed down, I don't exactly attribute it to joining but I kind of do, its hard to explain. Freemasonry sure as hell isn't really for everyone though, imo but it really works for me and I'm a proud mason. I'm also a member of a few other orders and organizations that aren't masonic because I also have a immense interest in magic and the occult...etc (I'm not a damn satanist or any stupid stereotype like that, though) but I don't want to get into that right now.

Sorry for not going to in depth into this but if you have more questions, feel free to ask
. I have a lot more I could say but I'm not the best at expressing my thoughts through typing. Also I'm sure someone else will get to your other questions eventually, although I've noticed the secret societies forum has been slow as hell recently with only a few posts a day.


[edit on by jeasahtheseer]



posted on Aug, 10 2009 @ 12:18 AM
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Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
I'm interested in masonrys connection with the Illuminati?
As far as I'm concerned that connection ended when the Illuminati was disbanded in 1785.


I'd love to understand why both black masons and white masons are happy to be segregated and kept apart?
In most of the world, we're not, as far as I know. Really only a few states in the US that practice any form of segregation. Since there's no overarching body that governs all of Masonry, there's not a whole lot one state's grand lodge can do to make another state's grand lodge change its policies.


And I would be thrilled to bits if ever the day dawned when I could understand the mentality of your normal mason.
When you can understand the mentality of your normal person, you'll understand the mentality of your normal mason. There's nothing special about us. We're just people with interests that differ from yours. Not a big deal.


Why does he want to belong to a fraternity?
Camaraderie, charity, philosophy, any number of reasons. Each probably unique to that member.


Can't ordinary men become better men without the aid of freemasons?
Sure. And no mason here has said otherwise.


And I would be cock-a-hoop if someone would care to share with me why some masons consider the craft a religion while others fly off the handle at the mere suggestion?
Why are some people fanatic about their home football team when others couldn't give a care in the world? Individuals can become fanatics about just about anything, from a type of auto to a sports team to a beer to a fraternity. Everybody here is just coming to it from their own opinions, which is why you'll hear disagreement. You honestly expect us all to be so brainwashed that we'd parrot the same ideas verbatim?

[edit on 8/10/2009 by JoshNorton]



posted on Aug, 10 2009 @ 10:14 AM
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A quick search on Google Books mentions what seems to be the, according to those same books, the god of freemasonry. Seems that is not the same trinity of God, Son and Holy Spirit.


It is quite clear that Freemasonry asks each prospective member to attest that they believe in a Supreme Being prior to their initiation rites. This Supreme Being varies in name depending on one's religious beliefs.

To a Catholic, the Supreme Being would be the Holy Trinity - Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. To a Jew, it would be "Hashem" (literally, "The Name"), referring to the God Almighty of the Old Testament. To Muslims, the Supreme Being would be "Allah", etc.

So, to answer your question, each man has different and varying religious beliefs. But what Masons have in common is a belief in a Supreme Being, regardless of what "name" you call this Supreme Being.

This requirement permits Freemasonry to allow people of different faiths (Catholic, Protestant, etc.) to come together in harmony and fraternity without respect to religious nor political differences.



Is freemasonry a religion?


In a word, no. Freemasonry is a fraternity, not a religion. And it has all the hallmarks of a fraternity, not a religion.

I'll comment on your 9 points:

1. Belief in supernatural beings (gods).

Masons, for one, believe in a Supreme Being, not multiple gods. Secondly, this is only a requirement for entrance into the Lodge. There is no preacher that preaches religious beliefs in the Lodge.

2. A distinction between sacred and profane objects.

We have no sacred objects, aside from the Holy Bible. The rest of the items used in the Lodge - the square, compass, etc. - are not "sacred" items, although you might say that they are treated "respectfully" in that they are not tossed in the garbage nor mishandled.

3. Ritual acts focused on sacred objects.

Fraternal rituals, not religious rituals, and no sacred objects.

4. A moral code believed to be sanctioned by the gods.

A moral code, but not sanctioned by any specific religious belief system and certainly not sanctioned by any "gods".

5. Characteristically religious feelings (awe, sense of mystery, sense of guilt, adoration), which tend to be aroused in the presence of sacred objects and during the practice of ritual, and which are connected in idea with the gods.

No awe, no guilt, no adoration in Masonry. Some mystery in the sense that the Masonic initiations are private meetings behind closed doors - Less to do with mystery, and more to do with privacy.

No sacred objects. No multiple gods.

6. Prayer and other forms of communication with gods.

In one section of the Blue Lodge degrees, the prospective Mason is asked to pray to his God for guidance.

There are no series of prayers as you would find in a Catholic Mass, synagogue service, and the like. Although there are references to the Old Testament, these are references - not prayers.

The only other prayers are those said before meals, which technically take place outside of the Lodge doors in a dining room area, and is more a matter of custom.

7. A world view, or a general picture of the world as a whole and the place of the individual therein. This picture contains some specification of an over-all purpose or’ point of the world and an indication of how the individual fits into it.

Definitely no "world" or "international" view of man, other than the idea that we should be helpful towards one another and treat each other with brotherly respect and the Golden Rule.

No over-arching "placement" of an individual to "fit" into some kind of world view. No dictating to people as to what their place in the world is. Masonry is quite egalitarian in that it does not recognize wealth, privilege, or other worldly honors.

8. A more or less total organization of one’s life based on the world view.

Definitely not. Masonic philosophy does not believe nor advocate micro-managing people's lives.

9. A social group bound together by the above.

A social group - yes, but more appropriately defined as a fraternity, not a "social group" nor a "religion".



3) Seems that masons have to make oaths. Let's see what Jesus said about oaths: "33 Again you have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ 34 But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil."


First, the Masonic oaths are not said "falsely", they are said in honesty and sincerity, and of one's own free will and accord.

As this is public knowledge, all of the oaths revolve around the Golden Rule, which is certainly Christian in nature, and nothing to object to. Agreeing to keep the fraternity private, and not a public matter. Taking care of one's brother, widows, and orphans, and keeping the confidence of your fellow brethren (For example, not airing dirty laundry in public. This keeping of confidences does not mean keeping illegal activities quiet - In fact, the Lodge ritual requires one to be completely respectful of governmental authority in such matters.)

The oaths are not sworn by heaven, earth, Jerusalem, nor by one's "head". Oaths are repeated by the participant - but their agreement is never with a "Yes" or "No", but by simply kissing the Holy Bible.

On all accounts, therefore, the Masonic oaths, as given in your quotation, would meet the mandates laid down by Christ himself.


[edit on 10-8-2009 by CookieMonster09]



posted on Aug, 10 2009 @ 01:35 PM
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Sorry to be a stickler here, but I wanted to mention that not all Masons agree on interpretation, as I have several different ones than Cookie Monster.



Originally posted by CookieMonster09


2. A distinction between sacred and profane objects.

We have no sacred objects, aside from the Holy Bible. The rest of the items used in the Lodge - the square, compass, etc. - are not "sacred" items, although you might say that they are treated "respectfully" in that they are not tossed in the garbage nor mishandled.


If the square and compasses are not "sacred", why is the Bible? They are each a Great Light of Masonry.

Perhaps due to the symbolic nature of Masonry, even this terminology can be confusing, depending on how one defines "sacred". I would suggest that the things represented by the Bible, Square, and Compasses are sacred, while the physical items representing them on the Altar are not "sacred" as such. In other words, they are not treated like a Catholic priest would treat the consecrated host.


Some mystery in the sense that the Masonic initiations are private meetings behind closed doors - Less to do with mystery, and more to do with privacy.


I have to disagree strongly on this point. Masonic ritual and symbolism is full of mystery in the literal sense, not in the sense that Lodge proceedings are simply private.


6. Prayer and other forms of communication with gods.

In one section of the Blue Lodge degrees, the prospective Mason is asked to pray to his God for guidance.

There are no series of prayers as you would find in a Catholic Mass, synagogue service, and the like. Although there are references to the Old Testament, these are references - not prayers.


Actually, in virtually all approved versions of the Work, there are numerous formal prayers. These take place in both the opening and closing of the Lodge, as well as the actual degree work.


[edit on 10-8-2009 by Masonic Light]





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