Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
It teaches a path to the Celestial Lodge

No, no it doesn't. The ritual of Freemasonry does say that certain qualities help prepare a man for the eternal life that lies after this one. But other than saying that the development of these qualities is recommended, it doesn't outline a plan of salvation.

Freemasonry runs into trouble with religion when narrow-minded bigots come to believe that only their particular brand of faith can lead to salvation. Because Freemasonry leaves to each man his own choice of faith, it seems to value all equally. This, to some, is intolerable. Should we not all convert to Southern Reformed Conservative Baptists of the Covenant of 1812 or be cast into the lake of fire? Frankly, any God that petty, in my view, isn't worth worshiping. Nonetheless, Freemasonry is /silent/ on religion beyond demanding that its members have a faith in a Supreme Being. In my jurisdiction (state), that is expressly a singular Supreme Being (monotheistic).

The word "God" is not used in Freemasonry.

That's just not right. Every single member is required to express a belief in God. And yes, the word God is used.

In other words, Christians are taught that Christianity is equal in importance with every other religion.

I find this idea truly intriguing. How is it that you jump from "Freemasonry insists on religious toleration among its members when in Lodge" to "Christians are taught that Christianity is equal in importance with every other religion." You are entirely wrong.

Christians are taught that their faith is the rule and guide of their life. That they should consistently seek the moral guidance of their faith, practice its tenets, and seek to perfect their understanding of it.

Those of other faiths are likewise encouraged. Each man is expected to truly live his faith.

Why is that idea so hard to understand?

If by "inspiration" you mean tampering with what many people consider the word of God.

Tamper?

Significant parts of scripture are recited during the degrees. I don't consider that tampering.

Ephesians 2:19-22

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Good point.

Okay, so it would be your position now that every metaphor which was used to explain the person and ministry of Jesus is off-limits in every other context? We can no longer speak of anything being the "cornerstone" of anything else, because that would be denying Jesus? The Constitution can't, for example, be the cornerstone of our legal system because that would be usurping Jesus's analogy? Is that really your position?

The symbolism here is that a new member is placed at the location where a building begins because he has begun, in Freemasonry, to build. The symbolism is drawn, remember, from operative Masons who would have got the idea that new member is like the first stone in a new building.

It's funny how insincere Christians only see the "judge not" part. That passage is NOT saying not to judge - it's saying that what goes around comes around.

So now you feel you know enough about me to judge me to be an insincere Christian. Well, I for one hope that the measure that you receive will be considerably more generous than the measure which you have used to judge me. Because out of utter ignorance you have belittled my faith.

2 Corinthians 6:14

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

How do you determine a non-believer? By judging a man based on his behavior.

Thank you for the nice attempt at proof-texting. However, I've been ready for this one for years. The heart of this text is the word "unequally." It is admonishing the community of faith against unequal relationships with unbelievers. Note that it doesn't say 'disadvantageously'. It says 'unequally'. So, we must believe that Christians are obligated not to allow themselves to be subject unequally to unbelivers, nor should they be unequally in authority over unbelievers.

Luckily, in a Lodge, there is no inequality. Part of the point of the Fraternity is to allow men of every station to meet on the level. In point of fact, we invented the notion of meeting "on the level."

If, incidentally, your interpretation of that passage is correct, then I would argue that you cannot join the Scouts, a baseball team, or serve on a jury. Nor should you, in fact, be a citizen of this country. Nor, actually, should you be a member of ATS. All these institutions, like Freemasonry, are neutral as to the faith of their members.

Seriously, is this game benefiting anyone? If you don't want to become a Freemason because you believe that your fragile faith cannot stand being in the same room with someone of another faith, no Lodge in the world would want you to join. It isn't as if we jump out of dark corners, grab you by the neck and initiate you into the Fraternity without giving you a chance to run away. You have to make an effort -- in most cases, quite a considerable effort -- to become a Mason.

If it isn't for you, fine.

Just stop making up silly stories.


(edited to fix silly quote error -- ooops!)


[edit on 8-8-2009 by driley]

[edit on 8-8-2009 by driley]

[edit on 8-8-2009 by driley]

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

For one they ask Christians to betray their religion.

To join Freemasonry, you must state that you are joining of your own free will and accord. If you or anyone else would ever feel like you are betraying your religion, then you would never join the Craft. No one is ever forced to do anything in the Lodge.

Freemasons persuade people that they would not betray their religion by joining, which is not exactly allowing people to join by their own free will and volition.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Seems like you have your mind made up that Christians are hypocrites and Catholic priests sodomize little boys. That kinda contradicts your claims of tolerance, fellowship and all that other garbage. By "charitable works" do you mean having to accept money from another man to buy back your own wedding ring?

First, I don't tend to make blanket accusations against a group of individuals, as the original post suggests. Secondly, I find it somewhat humorous that the Catholic Church - by far the most vocal opponent of Freemasonry - has the audacity to criticize a great fraternity when it can't keep its own adherents in line, let alone its priesthood.

By charitable works, I refer to the millions of dollars that Masons donate every year to philanthropic works. Shriners Hospitals is just one example. There are others.

You have just made a blanket accusation against members of the Catholic Church

So then Freemasonry is the lesser evil

Philanthropic works that are used mostly to help other Masons

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

How many ex-Oddfellows or ex-Elk have come forward with accusations? For what reason should anyone condemn any of those groups?

First, why are you singling out Freemasonry, and not these other fraternities? Surely these other organizations must have skeletons in their closets - I am sure that their secret rituals involve worshipping Satan and blood sacrifices, no? I mean, the Rotary, Elks, Moose, K of C, all meet behind closed doors in a private setting and engage in strange rituals, right? They must be Satanic, no?

I'm not singling out Freemasonry by any means. I just happen to have more information about Freemasonry than other groups.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

How is that?

Ask any Mason if he would help a brother in need, or if he would help a widow or orphan - or anyone in need for that matter. It is his duty and obligation to help others - It is built into the moral expectations of the fraternity that we help others.

By contrast, and of course, my own subjective personal opinion (which is what I was attesting to, by the way) has been that Masons are much, much more brotherly, friendly, open-minded, tolerant, respectful, and helpful than what is found in many, many so-called "Christian" churches. I have witnessed this both personally and professionally.

Christianity teaches that man is not saved by works, but by the blood of Christ

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Condescending, like the racists and elitists who inhabit the Masonic lodge.

Elitist? Racist? Proof please. Masons are very tolerant - It's built into the organization itself to accept others of differing faiths and religions.

Now, historically, if you want to talk racism, the Prince Hall Masons have remained a separate order of Masonry by choice, though there are some inroads even in this area as of recent date.

Elitist? No. Most Masons are everyday work a day folks. Farmers, lawyers, businessmen, insurance salesmen, bartenders, assembly line workers, policemen, firemen, etc.

The Prince Hall lodge wasn't created by choice. It was created to recruit Black people into the military. Albert Pike himself said that he would not sit in a lodge with Black Masons. When the Prince Hall lodge was first chartered, its members could not even confer the degrees.

Those blue-collar worker Masons-next-door are at the bottom of the totem pole, and must do the bidding for the higher-ups.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

It's a shame that you've never found friendship, fraternity, moral support and help in a church.

I never said that. What I said was that most churches could learn about friendship, fraternity, and moral support by their local Masonic Lodge. Not all churches. Some.

Most of the churches I've been to have been friendly, fraternal, moral, and everything you ascribe to the Freemasons. There are parishioners and churches that are corrupt (mostly Black churches), but then Christianity and "the black community" are not perfect either.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Don't even go there with the Shriners. They force you to make an oath to Allah on the Qur'an.

Too funny. No, they don't. Would love to see where you learned this from. The Shriner initiation is actually a series of practical jokes and pranks in an afternoon of levity. There is no force involved. Hilarious.

Yeah there is force - if you don't do the oath you can't become a Shriner.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Yes, because a little bit of philanthropy goes a long way.

A long way towards what? Towards taking over the world and conquering all? Is that what we're after? Or are you just creating slogans for the fraternity?

Towards using the prophet motive

Originally posted by jokei
I think with the tabloid-style headline, we weren't going to be getting a balanced article here and seemingly the OP has little to back this statement up and neither have any of the contributors.

I am not a Mason - nor do I want to be...

Yet it's interesting that the Masons haven't descended to name-calling or unfounded statements.

Keep reading through the forum, you'll be surprised

Freemasons persuade people that they would not betray their religion by joining, which is not exactly allowing people to join by their own free will and volition.

Patently untrue. Freemasons don't persuade anyone to join. They don't proselytize, and you won't find one knocking on your door. You have to inquire on your own, and be sincere. It is categorically false to suggest that we "persuade" anyone into joining, regardless of their religious faith.

You have just made a blanket accusation against members of the Catholic Church

No, I have not. The official position of the Catholic Church is quite clear: Catholics cannot become Freemasons or they face ex-communication from the Church. This is public record - It is not a "blanket" statement against any particular group of Catholics.

Philanthropic works that are used mostly to help other Masons

Again, where is your proof? Most of the charitable work - such as the Shriners Hospitals for instance - go to help children. You don't have to have any Masonic affiliation to be helped by the fraternity's charitable works - dyslexic children (Scottish Rite), burn victims, crippled children, etc.

In fact, I would say that the very large majority of philanthropy is to non-Masons. The only Masonic philanthropy that helps Masons that I can even think of are the nursing homes that we operate - usually 1 per state, if at all. And these represent only a small portion of our total philanthropy - and includes many non-Masons as well - such as the wives of Masons that are living in these nursing homes.

It sure would be nice if you checked your facts before making these patently ridiculous claims. It's absurd.

I'm not singling out Freemasonry by any means. I just happen to have more information about Freemasonry than other groups.

Well, wherever you are getting your information should be checked, because I have refuted nearly all of your ridiculous claims.

Christianity teaches that man is not saved by works, but by the blood of Christ

Not so. Yes, the blood of Christ provides salvation, but you can't live your life ignoring the Ten Commandments and expect to go to heaven. Just because Christ died for our sins, does not allow a Christian to create murder and mayhem without facing the eternal consequences.

Freemasonry makes no such claims on salvation whatsoever.

Those blue-collar worker Masons-next-door are at the bottom of the totem pole, and must do the bidding for the higher-ups.

How so? All Master Masons are "on the level" - meaning no one is better than the other, regardless of creed, religion, wealth, etc. It's the most egalitarian fraternity on the planet.

There is no "bidding for the higher-up's". Give me a break. What kind of bidding would one do exactly anyways? Say the ritual faster or more fluently? Do tell.

Yeah there is force - if you don't do the oath you can't become a Shriner.

No, there is no one forcing anyone to become a Shriner. We don't put a gun to someone's head and force them to join. Any oaths taken are taken of one's free will and accord - for all the Masonic degrees.

You are so misinformed on all of these matters, it makes my head spin. You really need to do some more reading - from Masonic sources I might add - that can give you more accurate information.

The Shriner initiation is a series of practical jokes and pranks.

Towards using the prophet motive

I am assuming you mean "profit" motive. First, Masonry is not a business - It is a fraternity. Big difference. I think you are confusing the fraternity with a Fortune 500 company with accountants, salespeople, and operations executives.

We don't produce a product, and we don't sell any services. You might have us confused with the K of C which has an insurance arm. We have no such thing.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Freemasons persuade people that they would not betray their religion by joining, which is not exactly allowing people to join by their own free will and volition.

And where do you get this? There is no persuasion or coercion. We give the candidates the facts and they choose whether they join or not.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Philanthropic works that are used mostly to help other Masons

Examples of this? I'm sure the beneficiaries of the numerous Masonic charities would disagree with your statement.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Yeah there is force - if you don't do the oath you can't become a Shriner.

If you don't want to participate in the requirements of the group, then don't join. Not a hard concept.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
You're missing the point. Christians believe that Jesus Christ is important.

Christ is important to Freemasons, but just those who are Christian.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

The word "God" is not used in Freemasonry.

From the Fellowcraft Degree:

Where for the first time your attention is Masonically drawn to the letter 'G' which stands for God...

The "G" stands for other things besides God.

Freemasons refers to the supreme being as deity or GAOTU, not God.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
But that's just the christian way of looking at things. Masons don't recognise organised religion. They only ask that you believe in a supreme being, it doesn't matter who the supreme being is.

Minor correction: Some individual Masons don't recognize organized religion. The majority do. Masonry as an organization doesn't affiliate with any particular religion, organized or not. Masonry teaches that if an individual member believes in an organized religion he should be active in his church; if the individual member is more Deistic, that he strive to have a better relationship with God through his solitary practice.

But Isn't that really just a play on words?
It's a bit like saying, "I'm not a plumber, I have no knowledge of plumbing but give me a minute and I'll fix that leak in your bathroom. . !"

You need a religious text to serve as a lesser light on your altar

Originally posted by driley
Freemasonry is no more a religion than being a Boy Scout.

Scouting also teaches morality. It, too, has its oaths. It, too, demands of its membership that they not be atheists. It also requires a neutral respect for the religious beliefs of its members.

So... why aren't ya'll screaming about the world-wide Scouting conspiracy? I mean, Masons may wear aprons, but those Boy Scouts actually practice things like marksmanship and outdoor survival skills. They /are/ planning for the the alien takeover.

The Boy Scouts have an inner circle called the Order of the Arrow

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Freemasons persuade people that they would not betray their religion by joining, which is not exactly allowing people to join by their own free will and volition.

Patently untrue. Freemasons don't persuade anyone to join. They don't proselytize, and you won't find one knocking on your door. You have to inquire on your own, and be sincere. It is categorically false to suggest that we "persuade" anyone into joining, regardless of their religious faith.

By begging for sympathy, you are trying to persuade people to support your agenda.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

You have just made a blanket accusation against members of the Catholic Church

No, I have not. The official position of the Catholic Church is quite clear: Catholics cannot become Freemasons or they face ex-communication from the Church. This is public record - It is not a "blanket" statement against any particular group of Catholics.

This is so off, it's laugable. Your accusation was about how corrupt they are.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Philanthropic works that are used mostly to help other Masons

Again, where is your proof? Most of the charitable work - such as the Shriners Hospitals for instance - go to help children. You don't have to have any Masonic affiliation to be helped by the fraternity's charitable works - dyslexic children (Scottish Rite), burn victims, crippled children, etc.

In fact, I would say that the very large majority of philanthropy is to non-Masons. The only Masonic philanthropy that helps Masons that I can even think of are the nursing homes that we operate - usually 1 per state, if at all. And these represent only a small portion of our total philanthropy - and includes many non-Masons as well - such as the wives of Masons that are living in these nursing homes.

It sure would be nice if you checked your facts before making these patently ridiculous claims. It's absurd.

These are just a bunch of generalities. I'm sure that if YOU presented facts, they would be fleshed out not to be what you represent them to be.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

I'm not singling out Freemasonry by any means. I just happen to have more information about Freemasonry than other groups.

Well, wherever you are getting your information should be checked, because I have refuted nearly all of your ridiculous claims.

When you actually start using logical arguments, then we can talk about who's refuting what.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Christianity teaches that man is not saved by works, but by the blood of Christ

Not so. Yes, the blood of Christ provides salvation, but you can't live your life ignoring the Ten Commandments and expect to go to heaven. Just because Christ died for our sins, does not allow a Christian to create murder and mayhem without facing the eternal consequences.

Freemasonry makes no such claims on salvation whatsoever.

The Ten Commandments are God's words. Disobeying them is committing sin.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Those blue-collar worker Masons-next-door are at the bottom of the totem pole, and must do the bidding for the higher-ups.

How so? All Master Masons are "on the level" - meaning no one is better than the other, regardless of creed, religion, wealth, etc. It's the most egalitarian fraternity on the planet.

Not true, there is an inner circle.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
There is no "bidding for the higher-up's". Give me a break. What kind of bidding would one do exactly anyways? Say the ritual faster or more fluently? Do tell.

Certain words and phrases that are not taught in regular ritual and are imparted only to trusted Masons.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Yeah there is force - if you don't do the oath you can't become a Shriner.

No, there is no one forcing anyone to become a Shriner. We don't put a gun to someone's head and force them to join. Any oaths taken are taken of one's free will and accord - for all the Masonic degrees.

You are so misinformed on all of these matters, it makes my head spin. You really need to do some more reading - from Masonic sources I might add - that can give you more accurate information.

The Shriner initiation is a series of practical jokes and pranks.

That's not what I said. Read it again.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Towards using the prophet motive

I am assuming you mean "profit" motive. First, Masonry is not a business - It is a fraternity. Big difference. I think you are confusing the fraternity with a Fortune 500 company with accountants, salespeople, and operations executives.

We don't produce a product, and we don't sell any services. You might have us confused with the K of C which has an insurance arm. We have no such thing.

No, I mean prophet motive, meaning that he's a prophet so he gets special priviliges that the worker bees don't get.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

The "G" stands for other things besides God.

Freemasons refers to the supreme being as deity or GAOTU, not God.

Nice attempt at misdirection. You are the one who said God does not appear in Masonic ritual. I gave you one place of many in which it does. Instead of saying, "Sorry fellow Above Top Secret members, I was talking out of my posterior", you resort to posting non-sequitors.

Do you need more examples to assist you in retracting your erroneous statement?