Originally posted by Evangelical
You are places in the north east corner because the cornerstone is first placed there? Or is it?

Jesus Christ is the corner stone, evidenced in Ephesians. The north east, the north being the right hand of God.

You as a Freemason should know that you may read whatever symbolism you wish into the ritual. If, for you, the north is the right hand of God, then the NE corner means you are at the right hand of God. How does this clash with what you believe?

I was a mason for seven years and being called from it was a powerful and moving and humbling display of the power of Jesus Christ.

It is interesting that you found your truth while you were a Freemason. Freemasonry teaches you to find your truth, and you have found your truth. Freemasonry has done for you exactly what it intended, and has served you well.

[edit on 15/7/2009 by Saurus]

I definitely didn't come to Christ beause of Freemasonry. Other faiths find contention with masonry too, but that's neither here nor there. Masonry prevents a person of sharing the Gospel with their 'brothers'.

Originally posted by Evangelical
I definitely didn't come to Christ because of Freemasonry. Other faiths find contention with masonry too, but that's neither here nor there. Masonry prevents a person of sharing the Gospel with their 'brothers'.

Yes, While in the lodge. Can you wait for 2 hours at most to spread the word of God? Even Jesus Christ would give people a little break.

But MY real question to you is where in the First degree lecture does Hiram Abiff and his story come in. I admit I don't know it verbatim (or any other way) but I don't remember Hiram being mentioned until the 3rd.

If your decision is to leave masonry to devote more time to being a christian, then I think that is a noble cause, and I wish you all the luck. God Bless brother.

Originally posted by In nothing we trust

You either accept the work that was done or your don't.

Unbelievers are scumbags.

I don't think unbelievers are scumbags at all. Albert Pike himself pointed out that there are many "theoretical atheists" who live as though they were Christians, while there are many "theoretical Christians" who live as though they were atheists.

Freemasonry does not initiate atheists because our fraternity is theistic, and focuses on the divine mysteries, which would not be appreciated by the atheist. It is not because we think that atheists are immoral or are "scumbags".

[edit on 15-7-2009 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Evangelical


Freemasonry claims it is compatible with all faiths including Christianity when it in fact is not

Yes it is. You are confusing the issue. Freemasonry doesn't claim to be "Christian", it just says that Christians can become Masons like everyone else.

If Freemasonry was a Christian organization, I never would have joined it, that's for sure.

Originally posted by Evangelical
Freemasonry claims it is compatible with all faiths including Christianity when it in fact is not at all compatible not because of it being inclusive but because it specifically excludes the Gospel from discussion.

Freemasonry reminds its members that no religion is true, that salvation doesn't from faith, and that you are not good enough just the way God made you, among other things that directly contradict the Bible.

Despite claims that theology is excluded from discussion, they impose their own theology in the form of GAOTU as well as the morals, the secret words and grips, and their insistence that members proselytize to outsiders by indulging curiosities and defending it from criticism. A "free-thinking," "open," "anti-dogmatic" and "perfect" institution should be able to criticize even itself. Why should a Freemason observe the pencil or the plumb line? What if he wants to place a cornerstone in the west? What if he wants apples and bananas as his wages? You get to choose what book you want for your altar but nothing else.

You can't become a Freemason if you practice a religion that acknowledges more than one god as supreme, which directly contradicts their claim not to delve into religion.

One of the degrees of the so-called "Christian" York Rite is the Knights Templar, which is named after a French Jewish organization.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Freemasonry reminds its members that no religion is true, that salvation doesn't from faith, and that you are not good enough just the way God made you, among other things that directly contradict the Bible.

Rubbish. Show me where Freemasonry says that.

One of the charges simply mentions that purity is essential to entrance into heaven. Since no man is pure, it is up to the individual's faith as to how they gain entrance. Freemasonry doesn't provide this salvation.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Despite claims that theology is excluded from discussion, they impose their own theology in the form of GAOTU as well as the morals, the secret words and grips, and their insistence that members proselytize to outsiders by indulging curiosities and defending it from criticism. A "free-thinking," "open," "anti-dogmatic" and "perfect" institution should be able to criticize even itself.

That isn't "applying theology" at all! Handgrips, words and signs of recognition are simply aspects of the fraternity, not religious in any way.

Along with looking up the word "theology" you should also consult the dictionary for the word "proselytise". Freemasonry has a longstanding philosophy and policy of NOT proselytising to prospective members. The exact opposite of what you said! They proselytise by "indulging curiosity"??? What planet are you on? Answering someone's questions is "proselytising"? Wrong, dude. Defending it from unfounded allegations is "proselytising"? Wrong again. As I said, look it up.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Why should a Freemason observe the pencil or the plumb line? What if he wants to place a cornerstone in the west? What if he wants apples and bananas as his wages? You get to choose what book you want for your altar but nothing else.

Thse remarks are... incomprehensible to me.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
You can't become a Freemason if you practice a religion that acknowledges more than one god as supreme, which directly contradicts their claim not to delve into religion.

These are simply requirements for membership. How is that delving into religion?

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
One of the degrees of the so-called "Christian" York Rite is the Knights Templar, which is named after a French Jewish organization.

The Knights Templar were formed within the Catholic church to defend Christian pilgrims on the way to the Holy Land. Your facts are so far askew it's not even funny, dude.

Why try to debate or converse with this cult? If you're a freemason then there is only only one way, their way or the highway. . .
Freemasons are more to pitied because they can't see what is going on in front of their faces. Masonry Isn't evil, it's not satanic but it is providing the NWO with the next generation of members. The only problem is that masons don't realise it!

How does that relate to the thread at all?

Dude, if you're sour about being confronted with converse opinions, just try and realise that not everyone thinks the same way you do. That's the way of the world. Whining about the fact that the people whom you are trying to demonise don't agree with you is just silly.

I am not a member of Freemasonry anymore, BTW.

Originally posted by Roark

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Freemasonry reminds its members that no religion is true, that salvation doesn't from faith, and that you are not good enough just the way God made you, among other things that directly contradict the Bible.

Rubbish. Show me where Freemasonry says that.

Freemasonry provides the GATOU as a blank space that each person must fill in? Now that's rubbish. The whole concept of the GATOU is to engage in theology.

Masons are never taught to exercise unconditional faith in anything except Freemasonry and other humans.

It also teaches that a man must sculpt himself in the way he would perfect a rough ashlar. He must also build himself the in the way he would build a temple.

Originally posted by Roark
One of the charges simply mentions that purity is essential to entrance into heaven. Since no man is pure, it is up to the individual's faith as to how they gain entrance. Freemasonry doesn't provide this salvation.

Why should that be of any concern to an institution that bars religious discussion?

Originally posted by Roark

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Despite claims that theology is excluded from discussion, they impose their own theology in the form of GAOTU as well as the morals, the secret words and grips, and their insistence that members proselytize to outsiders by indulging curiosities and defending it from criticism. A "free-thinking," "open," "anti-dogmatic" and "perfect" institution should be able to criticize even itself.

That isn't "applying theology" at all! Handgrips, words and signs of recognition are simply aspects of the fraternity, not religious in any way.

Along with looking up the word "theology" you should also consult the dictionary for the word "proselytise". Freemasonry has a longstanding philosophy and policy of NOT proselytising to prospective members. The exact opposite of what you said! They proselytise by "indulging curiosity"??? What planet are you on? Answering someone's questions is "proselytising"? Wrong, dude. Defending it from unfounded allegations is "proselytising"? Wrong again. As I said, look it up.

Boaz and Jachin are words from the Bible. The strong grip of a Master Mason is connected with the story of Hiram Abiff, who is a character from the Bible. The "lost" word of a Master Mason is the name of a Masonic god. The grips and words are a form of dogma.

By discussing Freemasonry with outsiders, and making it appear that all Freemasons are "good men," you are attempting to recruit new members. When someone sees a bumper sticker or a sign post they will be inclined to ask somebody about them.

Originally posted by Roark

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Why should a Freemason observe the pencil or the plumb line? What if he wants to place a cornerstone in the west? What if he wants apples and bananas as his wages? You get to choose what book you want for your altar but nothing else.

Thse remarks are... incomprehensible to me.

Your head must be spinning like a spiraling staircase.

Originally posted by Roark

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
You can't become a Freemason if you practice a religion that acknowledges more than one god as supreme, which directly contradicts their claim not to delve into religion.

These are simply requirements for membership. How is that delving into religion?

Why are there religious requirements for a supposedly non-religious institution?

Originally posted by Roark

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
One of the degrees of the so-called "Christian" York Rite is the Knights Templar, which is named after a French Jewish organization.

The Knights Templar were formed within the Catholic church to defend Christian pilgrims on the way to the Holy Land. Your facts are so far askew it's not even funny, dude.

They were commended by the Catholic Church, but they certainly were not created by them. As a matter of fact, the Catholic Church persecuted them until they were pardoned by the Vatican in 2007 (under suspicious circumstances). I find it difficult to believe that Freemasons would name anything that they created after anything having to do with the Catholic Church.

What's funny is that the Knights Templar stopped escorting Christian pilgrims once they supposedly found the temple treasure.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
Why try to debate or converse with this cult? If you're a freemason then there is only only one way, their way or the highway. . .
Freemasons are more to pitied because they can't see what is going on in front of their faces. Masonry Isn't evil, it's not satanic but it is providing the NWO with the next generation of members. The only problem is that masons don't realise it!

Freemasonry does involve evil acts

It's not that they are deaf, dumb and blind, just that they are liars. I guess you can't argue with a liar

Freemasonry does involve evil acts

Kind of like priests that sodomize little boys, right? Oops, that's the Catholic Church, and not Freemasonry. Sorry about that - Wrong organization.

Do tell what evil acts that Freemasonry engages. And I would love to hear your substantiated proof, concrete evidence, and accurate references that back your accusations. And hold off on providing quotes from conspiracy web sites, conspiracy authors, and the like. Let's go academic and find some real solid references for your (false) accusations.

Funny how a fraternal organization with its main purpose being to promote brotherhood, harmony, tolerance, understanding, friendship, and charitable works is condemned by so-called "Christians" as evil.

Why not condemn the Oddfellows, Elks, Moose, K of C, Rotary, College Fraternities, etc. while you're leveling these accusations? I mean, after all, all these groups must be up to something nefarious, right?

"He who is without sin, cast the first stone."

And, in regards to the original post, I have found Freemasonry to be much more Christian in nature than most organized "Christian" sects.

No stuffy suits, clamoring for "fundraising" drives, condescending and hypocritical preachers, guilt-ridden sermons, political back-stabbing, and the like - such as you find in many so-called "Christian" sects.

The genuine friendship, fraternal bonds, moral support, and help that Masons give each other (and their community) exemplifies the true meaning of Christian charity. Masonry is all about helping out those in distress, and being charitable and kind to those in need. Not a few Christian churches could learn from their example.

Let's see... We have the Shriners Hospitals, which provide free (that's right, free) medical care to burn victims at first-class, top-rated hospitals nationwide. We have the Scottish Rite, and the York Rite, each with their own charitable causes. We have Lodges scattered all across this country that devote time, energy, and money to helping their local community at the grass-roots level. Many Lodges give away money for scholarships. Most states have Masonic homes to provide first class medical care to the aged. Volunteer Shriners that march in parades for free to raise money for their hospitals and charitable works - including free transportation to these hospitals at no charge - all funded by the Shriners.

Yeah, those darn Masons, all that darn philanthropy that they do!

[edit on 22-7-2009 by CookieMonster09]

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Freemasonry does involve evil acts

Kind of like priests that sodomize little boys, right? Oops, that's the Catholic Church, and not Freemasonry. Sorry about that - Wrong organization.

They are too busy sodomizing one another, and women outside of their marriage

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
Do tell what evil acts that Freemasonry engages. And I would love to hear your substantiated proof, concrete evidence, and accurate references that back your accusations. And hold off on providing quotes from conspiracy web sites, conspiracy authors, and the like. Let's go academic and find some real solid references for your (false) accusations.

Funny how a fraternal organization with its main purpose being to promote brotherhood, harmony, tolerance, understanding, friendship, and charitable works is condemned by so-called "Christians" as evil.

For one they ask Christians to betray their religion.

Seems like you have your mind made up that Christians are hypocrites and Catholic priests sodomize little boys. That kinda contradicts your claims of tolerance, fellowship and all that other garbage.

By "charitable works" do you mean having to accept money from another man to buy back your own wedding ring?

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
Why not condemn the Oddfellows, Elks, Moose, K of C, Rotary, College Fraternities, etc. while you're leveling these accusations? I mean, after all, all these groups must be up to something nefarious, right?

"He who is without sin, cast the first stone."

How many ex-Oddfellows or ex-Elk have come forward with accusations? For what reason should anyone condemn any of those groups?

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
And, in regards to the original post, I have found Freemasonry to be much more Christian in nature than most organized "Christian" sects.

How is that?

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
No stuffy suits, clamoring for "fundraising" drives, condescending and hypocritical preachers, guilt-ridden sermons, political back-stabbing, and the like - such as you find in many so-called "Christian" sects.

Condescending, like the racists and elitists who inhabit the Masonic lodge.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
The genuine friendship, fraternal bonds, moral support, and help that Masons give each other (and their community) exemplifies the true meaning of Christian charity. Masonry is all about helping out those in distress, and being charitable and kind to those in need. Not a few Christian churches could learn from their example.

It's a shame that you've never found friendship, fraternity, moral support and help in a church.

I read a story about a program to give hearing aids to deaf children. They gave out only 100 hearing aids. So much for charity.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
Let's see... We have the Shriners Hospitals, which provide free (that's right, free) medical care to burn victims at first-class, top-rated hospitals nationwide. We have the Scottish Rite, and the York Rite, each with their own charitable causes. We have Lodges scattered all across this country that devote time, energy, and money to helping their local community at the grass-roots level. Many Lodges give away money for scholarships. Most states have Masonic homes to provide first class medical care to the aged. Volunteer Shriners that march in parades for free to raise money for their hospitals and charitable works - including free transportation to these hospitals at no charge - all funded by the Shriners.

Don't even go there with the Shriners. They force you to make an oath to Allah on the Qur'an.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
Yeah, those darn Masons, all that darn philanthropy that they do!

Yes, because a little bit of philanthropy goes a long way.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Yet they are spreading the Gospel of Hiram Abiff

Hiram Abiff is a fictional character used to demonstrate a moral lesson. Did you honestly not know this, or are you deliberately lying again?