Freemasonry is unChristian, page 3

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reply posted on 22-7-2009 @ 11:15 PM by KSigMason

reply to post by vcwxvwligen

No we are not. You are an outsider looking in and twisting what you believe to be true, which it is not.

reply posted on 22-7-2009 @ 11:58 PM by CookieMonster09

For one they ask Christians to betray their religion.

To join Freemasonry, you must state that you are joining of your own free will and accord. If you or anyone else would ever feel like you are betraying your religion, then you would never join the Craft. No one is ever forced to do anything in the Lodge.

Seems like you have your mind made up that Christians are hypocrites and Catholic priests sodomize little boys. That kinda contradicts your claims of tolerance, fellowship and all that other garbage. By "charitable works" do you mean having to accept money from another man to buy back your own wedding ring?

First, I don't tend to make blanket accusations against a group of individuals, as the original post suggests. Secondly, I find it somewhat humorous that the Catholic Church - by far the most vocal opponent of Freemasonry - has the audacity to criticize a great fraternity when it can't keep its own adherents in line, let alone its priesthood.

By charitable works, I refer to the millions of dollars that Masons donate every year to philanthropic works. Shriners Hospitals is just one example. There are others.

How many ex-Oddfellows or ex-Elk have come forward with accusations? For what reason should anyone condemn any of those groups?

First, why are you singling out Freemasonry, and not these other fraternities? Surely these other organizations must have skeletons in their closets - I am sure that their secret rituals involve worshipping Satan and blood sacrifices, no? I mean, the Rotary, Elks, Moose, K of C, all meet behind closed doors in a private setting and engage in strange rituals, right? They must be Satanic, no?

How is that?

Ask any Mason if he would help a brother in need, or if he would help a widow or orphan - or anyone in need for that matter. It is his duty and obligation to help others - It is built into the moral expectations of the fraternity that we help others.

By contrast, and of course, my own subjective personal opinion (which is what I was attesting to, by the way) has been that Masons are much, much more brotherly, friendly, open-minded, tolerant, respectful, and helpful than what is found in many, many so-called "Christian" churches. I have witnessed this both personally and professionally.

Condescending, like the racists and elitists who inhabit the Masonic lodge.

Elitist? Racist? Proof please. Masons are very tolerant - It's built into the organization itself to accept others of differing faiths and religions.

Now, historically, if you want to talk racism, the Prince Hall Masons have remained a separate order of Masonry by choice, though there are some inroads even in this area as of recent date.

Elitist? No. Most Masons are everyday work a day folks. Farmers, lawyers, businessmen, insurance salesmen, bartenders, assembly line workers, policemen, firemen, etc.

It's a shame that you've never found friendship, fraternity, moral support and help in a church.

I never said that. What I said was that most churches could learn about friendship, fraternity, and moral support by their local Masonic Lodge. Not all churches. Some.

Don't even go there with the Shriners. They force you to make an oath to Allah on the Qur'an.

Too funny. No, they don't. Would love to see where you learned this from. The Shriner initiation is actually a series of practical jokes and pranks in an afternoon of levity. There is no force involved. Hilarious.

Yes, because a little bit of philanthropy goes a long way.

A long way towards what? Towards taking over the world and conquering all? Is that what we're after? Or are you just creating slogans for the fraternity?

reply posted on 23-7-2009 @ 11:41 AM by jokei

I think with the tabloid-style headline, we weren't going to be getting a balanced article here and seemingly the OP has little to back this statement up and neither have any of the contributors.

I am not a Mason - nor do I want to be...

Yet it's interesting that the Masons haven't descended to name-calling or unfounded statements.

reply posted on 24-7-2009 @ 01:22 AM by Rockpuck

reply to post by Evangelical

Masonry is not compatible with Christianity because it teaches a false Gospel.

You mean a Philosophy?

First it teaches you go to heaven because of yourown endeavours in a rectitude of conduct and purity of life.

So if I am a model Human, I give to charity, I never commit a crime, I do everything I can to be a good person ... but I reject your fairy tales... I go to hell?

If this is the God you serve, he is the equivalent to a Satan that I would imagine. A TYRANT that demands servitude and devotion for the prospect of eternal life.. refuse to worship, you get cast to the pits of hell. Call me what you will, but even if I believed such a demonic God exist, I would rather burn in the fiery pits of Hell than bend my knee to a tyrannical, unjust malevolent God..

It may be harmless but if you want to go through the motions of the Christian life, then do it ad a Christian not as a Freemason.

Masonry is a Philosophy. Christianity is a Religion. While I never expect the zealous to understand the difference, they rarely understand anything, one should know a Philosophy is not a path to salvation, it is a way of thinking and acting.

People like your self, and the damned Born Agains, that make me reject the pure evils of organized religion...

If you were a Mason, you certainly have left the path of righteousness some time ago.. throwing away rational thought, respect of peoples views, and the belief of freedom of religion .. enjoy your God sir, I would do better without it.

reply posted on 24-7-2009 @ 07:27 AM by getreadyalready

reply to post by Rockpuck

So if I am a model Human, I give to charity, I never commit a crime, I do everything I can to be a good person ... but I reject your fairy tales... I go to hell?

This is my main argument with Christianity, and most Christains do not even realize this is the very definition of what makes them a "Christian"!

Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the light. No one gets to the Father, but through me."

Therefore, if Jesus is infallible, then he is excluding every other religion and condemning them to hell!

My own mother is a lifelong Christian, but she does not have an answer for this. She does not believe it to be true. She thinks all "good" people are going to heaven, but by definition, that makes her no longer a Christian!

I believe most American Christians are in fact "Deitists" which is very much in line with Masonic Philosophy.

reply posted on 24-7-2009 @ 07:38 AM by Rockpuck

reply to post by getreadyalready

Indeed, in actuality if anyone were to ask my religion I would generally say "Deist" .. I still go to mass every once in a while, and I may have some "pagan" leanings (I love the histories, stories and spirituality) .. but I would never subscribe to any one religion, proclaim it to be fact and believe everyone else is going to Hell for not believing what I believe.

reply posted on 24-7-2009 @ 07:59 AM by iulslion

Originally posted by jokei
I've no issue with it being unchristian... makes it seem a little more credible in my eyes.

Ignorance is the state in which one lacks knowledge, is unaware of something or chooses to subjectively ignore information. This should not be confused with being unintelligent, as one's level of intelligence and level of education or general awareness are not the same. The word "Ignorant" is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware. The term may be used specifically (e.g. "One can be an expert in math, and totally ignorant of history.") or generally (e.g. "an ignorant person.") -- although the second use is used less as a descriptive and more as an imprecise personal insult.

Take your pick. You should not insult Christianity with your ignorance, it is better to be silent when you don't understand something.

[edit on 24-7-2009 by iulslion]

[edit on 24-7-2009 by iulslion]

reply posted on 24-7-2009 @ 06:11 PM by oconnection

reply to post by Evangelical

Being that I'm not a Mason I'll do my best to help those who are willing to listen understand the perspective I've gathered over the years.

Like many anti-Masons on this board I've been in the same boat that you are on. I was raised Evangelical Christian, in a strict home. A number of years ago I had the same suspicions as many do. After 9/11, like many, I started questioning the world around me. I started to look for answers.

In 2003 I joined ATS and for some reason naturally gravitated to the secret society section of this site. For some reason I had negative (biased) views of Freemasonry. Reflecting on why, it was a combination of reasons. My grandfather was a Freemason and my mother never got along with her father, I was short sighted and believed too many stories on the internet, and being raised Christian there is much anti-Mason talk in the Church.

You would think someone with my background would be stuck in my ways. Being a member on ATS helped my studies. I decided to get as much material on the subject as I could, I mainly stuck to books. I have a rather large amount of books on the subject, some pro Mason and some anti-Mason. My logic was I'd meet somewhere in the middle.

I'd come on the board, quote some paragraph, debate with Masons on this board, reflect, then get back to reading. After my reading I decided to take a break from the whole subject.

I moved up to Washington. During this time I had a lot of quite and the ability to self examine. I continued down my path, searching for answers. My room mate was amazed at the amount of "interesting" material I'd have. We had many late night discussions. I more or less felt my perspective shifting.

After about a year away I moved back to California, mainly because I missed my family and my friends. Still being a member of ATS, I started visiting the Secret Society section of this board again. I saw all the crazy Masons eat babies threads and I noticed how my perspective had changed. I wasn't nearly as skeptical of Freemasonry.

I came across a thread titled Shards of the Illuminati (which is locked now). There were already 80+ pages so I had some reading to do. I found my self fascinated. I'd read at work, when I got home, I'd re-read it. A lot of this material made sense to me. There also was many weird coincidences.

My point is, the one thing I had going for me was the fact I had an opened mind. I accepted that there were other possibilities. My advice is don't believe everything you hear and make up your own mind, don't let someone do that for you!

I do not believe Freemasonry is sinister in it's operation. There are secrets but it's not because they are plotting to take over the world, I believe it's private to respect it's members and there is information and revelations that wouldn't make any sense to a person who has not taken the same path.

So the fact you can quote the first degree lecture either means you never were a Master Mason, read it off the internet and never were a Mason, or you had some sort of falling out.

How is that I have friends that are both Christian and Masons? How is that much of the material is of the Old Testament or Christian themed? While Freemasonry isn't a purely "Christian" organization the bulk of it's members are Christian. So I don't really see your argument as a valid one.

Where you a Master Mason? What other side degrees did you obtain? Can you prove this?

[edit on 24-7-2009 by oconnection]

reply posted on 24-7-2009 @ 06:54 PM by oconnection

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
Why not condemn the Oddfellows, Elks, Moose, K of C, Rotary, College Fraternities, etc. while you're leveling these accusations? I mean, after all, all these groups must be up to something nefarious, right?

I went to a Moose lodge this week for a nice dinner. It had lots of pool tables, cheap beer, a smoke room, and darts. My friend even showed me the rest of the place. To say the least, it had a lot of old timers. Hell, I like cheap beer and pool, I just might join. =)

reply posted on 24-7-2009 @ 09:58 PM by Mintwithahole.

reply to post by getreadyalready

Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the light. No one gets to the Father, but through me."

But that's just the christian way of looking at things. Masons don't recognise organised religion. They only ask that you believe in a supreme being, it doesn't matter who the supreme being is.

reply posted on 24-7-2009 @ 11:22 PM by JoshNorton

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
But that's just the christian way of looking at things. Masons don't recognise organised religion. They only ask that you believe in a supreme being, it doesn't matter who the supreme being is.

Minor correction: Some individual Masons don't recognize organized religion. The majority do. Masonry as an organization doesn't affiliate with any particular religion, organized or not. Masonry teaches that if an individual member believes in an organized religion he should be active in his church; if the individual member is more Deistic, that he strive to have a better relationship with God through his solitary practice.

reply posted on 25-7-2009 @ 09:13 PM by jokei

reply to post by iulslion

Correct you did quote a definition of ignorance, what you might not have been aware of is my personal history, that I have a solid grounding in "christianity" and its teachings.

Kudos for being so assumptive...

reply posted on 27-7-2009 @ 12:51 AM by driley

Oh good grief.

Freemasonry does not teach a path to heaven. It teaches men to be moral, to keep their passions under control, to treat others decently, and to remember that all of humanity is one family under the universal fatherhood of God. That's it. There is no plan of salvation in Freemasonry --- that it leaves to religion. Freemasonry explicitly states, repeatedly, that it encourages you to be faithful to the tenets of your own religion and that it limits itself to "that universal religion on which all men may agree" (which is basically the existence of a Supreme Being who is a creator).

Freemasonry does draw from the Bible -- of course it does, it was a creation of a time when that was the only available source of inspiration, really.

As for being placed as a new cornerstone in the Northeast corner -- um, that has nothing to do with Jesus. It isn't even the same allegory as the "stone" Jesus refers to as a symbol of himself isn't a cornerstone but a keystone -- the stone that makes an arch possible (the non-square store at the top of an arch that locks the structure into place).

As for all the ignorant Christians condemning Freemasonry out ignorance, I would simply remind you of Jesus's own words:

"Judge not, lest you shall be judged. The measure that you give will be the measure that you receive. Remove the log from your own eye, that you may see more clearly to remove the mote from your brother's eye."

It is a shame that some people allow their religion to close their minds and hearts to the Christian message.

[edit on 27-7-2009 by driley]

reply posted on 7-8-2009 @ 04:28 AM by vcwxvwligen

Originally posted by driley
Oh good grief.

Freemasonry does not teach a path to heaven.

It teaches a path to the Celestial Lodge

Originally posted by driley
It teaches men to be moral, to keep their passions under control, to treat others decently, and to remember that all of humanity is one family under the universal fatherhood of God. That's it. There is no plan of salvation in Freemasonry --- that it leaves to religion.

The word "God" is not used in Freemasonry.

Originally posted by driley
Freemasonry explicitly states, repeatedly, that it encourages you to be faithful to the tenets of your own religion and that it limits itself to "that universal religion on which all men may agree" (which is basically the existence of a Supreme Being who is a creator).

In other words, Christians are taught that Christianity is equal in importance with every other religion.

Originally posted by driley
Freemasonry does draw from the Bible -- of course it does, it was a creation of a time when that was the only available source of inspiration, really.

If by "inspiration" you mean tampering with what many people consider the word of God.

Originally posted by driley
As for being placed as a new cornerstone in the Northeast corner -- um, that has nothing to do with Jesus. It isn't even the same allegory as the "stone" Jesus refers to as a symbol of himself isn't a cornerstone but a keystone -- the stone that makes an arch possible (the non-square store at the top of an arch that locks the structure into place).

As for all the ignorant Christians condemning Freemasonry out ignorance, I would simply remind you of Jesus's own words:

"Judge not, lest you shall be judged. The measure that you give will be the measure that you receive. Remove the log from your own eye, that you may see more clearly to remove the mote from your brother's eye."

It is a shame that some people allow their religion to close their minds and hearts to the Christian message.

Ephesians 2:19-22

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

It's funny how insincere Christians only see the "judge not" part. That passage is NOT saying not to judge - it's saying that what goes around comes around. Note this passage as well:

2 Corinthians 6:14

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

How do you determine a non-believer? By judging a man based on his behavior.

reply posted on 7-8-2009 @ 04:46 AM by vcwxvwligen

Originally posted by Roark

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Yet they are spreading the Gospel of Hiram Abiff

Hiram Abiff is a fictional character used to demonstrate a moral lesson. Did you honestly not know this, or are you deliberately lying again?

Hiram Abiff is based on a character from the Bible

1 Kings 7:13-14

13 And king Solomon sent and fetched Hiram out of Tyre. 14 He was a widow's son of the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, a worker in brass: and he was filled with wisdom, and understanding, and cunning to work all works in brass. And he came to king Solomon, and wrought all his work.

The story of resurrection mirrors the stories of other deities in various faiths. The candidate of the Master Mason degree plays the role of a pagan god with the name of a Biblical character, which is blasphemy.

reply posted on 7-8-2009 @ 06:24 AM by Saurus

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
It teaches a path to the Celestial Lodge.

No it does not teach any path. Freemasonry teaches men how to live moral lives.

It simply states that you should follow your religion devoutly, and implies that you should behave in such a way during your life so as to warrant the reward of Heaven.

It teaches you to live your life the best way you can. The promise of the reward of Heaven should be a guide as to how to live your life.

Not the other way round.

The word "God" is not used in Freemasonry.

The word "God" is itself generic, and is not His name, as is "The Almighty," "The Creator" and "The Great Architect of the Universe."

In other words, Christians are taught that Christianity is equal in importance with every other religion.

No, religions are never compared. Freemasonry teaches men to live a moral life. All the various religions teach a common set of morals, and Freemasonry says that you should live your life according to the morals of your own religion.

Who you worship, and your path to Heaven is not dictated by Freemasonry, nor is it the purpose of Freemasonry.

If by "inspiration" you mean tampering with what many people consider the word of God.

Teaching that faith, hope and charity are good moral values is not tampering with the word of God.

[edit on 7/8/2009 by Saurus]

reply posted on 7-8-2009 @ 06:57 AM by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

The word "God" is not used in Freemasonry.

From the Fellowcraft Degree:

Where for the first time your attention is Masonically drawn to the letter 'G' which stands for God...

reply posted on 7-8-2009 @ 08:39 AM by omarsharif

reply to post by Rockpuck

Matthew 7:22, 7:23

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[Mod Edit - replaced excessive quote with Reply To: Tab]

Please do not just paste religious quotes, without personal commentary.

[edit on 7/8/2009 by Sauron]

reply posted on 7-8-2009 @ 12:52 PM by Mintwithahole.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
But that's just the christian way of looking at things. Masons don't recognise organised religion. They only ask that you believe in a supreme being, it doesn't matter who the supreme being is.
Minor correction: Some individual Masons don't recognize organized religion. The majority do. Masonry as an organization doesn't affiliate with any particular religion, organized or not. Masonry teaches that if an individual member believes in an organized religion he should be active in his church; if the individual member is more Deistic, that he strive to have a better relationship with God through his solitary practice.

But Isn't that really just a play on words?
It's a bit like saying, "I'm not a plumber, I have no knowledge of plumbing but give me a minute and I'll fix that leak in your bathroom. . !"

reply posted on 8-8-2009 @ 03:45 AM by driley

Freemasonry is no more a religion than being a Boy Scout.

Scouting also teaches morality. It, too, has its oaths. It, too, demands of its membership that they not be atheists. It also requires a neutral respect for the religious beliefs of its members.

So... why aren't ya'll screaming about the world-wide Scouting conspiracy? I mean, Masons may wear aprons, but those Boy Scouts actually practice things like marksmanship and outdoor survival skills. They /are/ planning for the the alien takeover.