Street Clashes ... Iranian Police overwhelmed by protesters[NEW VIDEO JUN 21]

reply to post by HunkaHunka


I would rather be wrong Hunka - that is for sure

I dunno... the Persians I know all seem to be very balanced people...

the people - sure - and I agree

there's probably going to be a split - but nothing ever goes all one way - or all the other

I posted this in another thread recently:

There were lots of female protestors - I saw a guard attack one women and then she went back up to him and grabbed him by the collar and said 'why are you doing this? Are you not an Iranian?' - he was totally disarmed and didn't know what to do but her actions stopped him.

news.bbc.co.uk...

I know what you're saying

but - they start out just shooting people - then switch to batons?

because they're concerned suddenly for people's safety - or are now worried about world/public opinion?

they let this crowd get this big - and this organized

I'm afraid of a massive, emboldened, out of control crowd providing them with just what they really want an need

Even in some of these videos you can hear riot police saying "I don't want to hit you! Please get out of here" Women were even successfully protecting downed riot police from the angry mobs... I agree that more force could have been used, but I also think there are cultural things which mean much more to them as well. I mean look how long it took them to cross the "red line"...

like I said - I hope you're right and I'm completely wrong

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


I completely understand where you are coming from, and I think your suspicions are completely valid...


Thanks for the other piece about the woman grabbing the policeman by the collar...

reply to post by HunkaHunka


sometimes when the adrenaline is rushing and the thinking stops - all it takes is one rational person to get in someone's face and say no - breaks the spell

it's why I agree with you about a lot of this - I think there's always a chance that ranks will be split - reason can prevail

Originally posted by warrenb
nice

when is this going to happen in the US?

When welfare is eliminated...

Really. Government dependence is never good. Not saying some do not "deserve" it...but we would have been better off from the start with crazy low taxes and almost zero welfare.

A government is like a bridge...helps connect everybody, but it doesn't need to be covered in diamonds.

No one better mention a boat or plane

Hamid Dabashi is the author of "Iran: A People Interrupted." He is Hagop Kevorkian Professor of Iranian Studies and Comparative Literature at Columbia University in New York. His Web site is www.hamiddabashi.com...

Kudos to CNN for having the courage to post this learned man's short essay which I highly recomend all the ATS armchair warriors looking to make these civil disturbances into something they are not to fit your own theories on the world and the Middle East ought to take a moment to read.

Commentary Iran Conflict

In his essay he explains most of what appears to be happening has to do with the economy and lack of jobs over there in Iran and the high level of unemployment amongst the young (under age 30).

The overwhelming majority of the people pouring into streets of Tehran and other major cities in support of Moussavi are precisely these 15- to 29-year-olds. How could this then be a middle-class uprising if the overwhelming majority of those who are supporting it and putting their lives on the line are in fact jobless 15- to 29-year-olds who still live with their parents -- who cannot even afford to rent an apartment, let alone marry and raise a family and join the middle class in a principally oil-based economy that is not labor-intensive to begin with?

Another crucial statistic that Salehi-Isfahani does not cite is the fact that more than 63 percent of university entrants in Iran are women, but only 12 percent are part of the labor force. That means that the remaining 51 percent are out of a job, and yet the most visible aspect of these anti-Ahmadinejad demonstrations is that women visibly outnumber men. How could jobless men and women be participating in a massive middle-class uprising against their "uncouth" leaders?

None of the opposition candidates contesting this election are people you would want to see as President of the United States either...

The fact is that given the structural limitations of a nascent democracy that is being crushed and buried in Iran under a particular interpretation of a Shiite juridical citadel, opposition to Ahmadinejad is fractured into the followers of three candidates with deeply divided economic programs and political positions.

Moussavi is universally known as a hard-core socialist in his economic platform and a social reformist in his politics. Mehdi Karrubi is far to Moussavi's right in his economic neo-liberalism and social conservatism. Mohsen Rezaie, meanwhile, is even more to the right of Karrubi in his social conservatism but to his left in his economic platform.

One of the opposition groups in fact thinks Ahmadenijad is to soft!

But the fact is that a major constituency of Moussavi is also the urban poor and particularly the war veterans who have no respect for Ahmadinejad, believing he had an inglorious war record, but are full of unsurpassed admiration for Moussavi because of his role as a fiercely dedicated prime minister during the Iran-Iraq war (1980-1988).

The Proffesor ends his brief essay stating these same words of common sense.

We need to adjust our lenses and languages in order to see better, and there is no better adjustment than just cautiously, hopefully and responsibly watching what is unfolding in front of us and reading it accordingly.

This movement is ahead of our inherited politics, floating ideologies or mismatched theories. We need to sit back, hope for the best and let this inspirational movement of a whole new generation of hope teach us courage and humility.

While almost everyone posting to this issue has an almost purely emotional take and reason to be posting on it, I honestly and humbly feel the majority haven't a clue as to what is really driving this or going on over there...

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Kudos to CNN for having the courage to post this learned man's short essay which I highly recomend all the ATS armchair warriors looking to make these civil disturbances into something they are not to fit your own theories on the world and the Middle East ought to take a moment to read.

even his essay is simplistic -

in addition - people's interests and concerns don't deserve to be swept into the "armchair warrior" bin

While almost everyone posting to this issue has an almost purely emotional take and reason to be posting on it, I honestly and humbly feel the majority haven't a clue as to what is really driving this or going on over there...

what is your point - exactly?

why don't you just say?

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Very well put...

I think most people get emotional when they see people fighting an "Authority" figure in the streets. It brings out the want to help the underdog in most people. Especially when there is YouBoob videos plastered everywhere showing young ladies dying in the streets. The people of Iran want change, so do we all. OK so many including myself dont understand fully the intricacies of Iranian culture or politics.

This doesnt stop me from lending emotional support and prayers for the ones who are fighting and dying for what "They" believe they want. I still say more power to them. I remember the mass majority of the supporters who overthrew the Shaw in 1979 were students from the universities. The very same age group. So I wonder how that factors in?

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Kudos to CNN for having the courage to post this learned man's short essay which I highly recomend all the ATS armchair warriors looking to make these civil disturbances into something they are not to fit your own theories on the world and the Middle East ought to take a moment to read.

even his essay is simplistic -

in addition - people's interests and concerns don't deserve to be swept into the "armchair warrior" bin

While almost everyone posting to this issue has an almost purely emotional take and reason to be posting on it, I honestly and humbly feel the majority haven't a clue as to what is really driving this or going on over there...

what is your point - exactly?

why don't you just say?

My point is people are reacting emotionally to a propoganda machine's distortion of events and cheering in unison something that they can not have any credible idea is even good for the Middle East/Asia, the Iranian or the American people.

People are rushing to judgements and conclusions that at the end of the day might very well not have been in their individual or collective best interests to rush to and support.

Most people can't even accurately identify the social economic conditions inside of Iran or what caused them that led to these political demonstrations yet they are certain why these demonstrations are happening and what the demonstrators wish as a collective outcome?

The American people are being distracted and manipulated and with the economic and political climate here in the United States being what it is, I am willing to bet dollars to donuts that is not something that is going to work out in American citizen's favor as it never does.

We spend so much time on ATS trying to deny and define ignorance and every time a major event unfolds people get swept right into all the most vague ellements of it, sure that it's almost always something that it is not.

I am not precisely sure what exactly is going on, on the ground in Iran right now and I have the common sense not to pretend I do or react and lend support one way or the other, since it is potentially dangerous to react to a situation that is not understood.

Our collective focus should be on what Washington is doing domestically to avert the deepening economic crisis as it does appear by the majority of credible accounts what has propelled the controversy in Iran is which candidate is better suited to handle that nation's economic crisis.

This is about the politics of jobs and making a living, and we here are facing the same issue, and we should be facing the same issue, but are too busy pretending that the situation in Iran is about social politics instead of economic politics.

My bank doesn't cash moral checks it cashes monetary ones!

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Very well put...

I think most people get emotional when they see people fighting an "Authority" figure in the streets. It brings out the want to help the underdog in most people. Especially when there is YouBoob videos plastered everywhere showing young ladies dying in the streets. The people of Iran want change, so do we all. OK so many including myself dont understand fully the intricacies of Iranian culture or politics.

This doesnt stop me from lending emotional support and prayers for the ones who are fighting and dying for what "They" believe they want. I still say more power to them. I remember the mass majority of the supporters who overthrew the Shaw in 1979 were students from the universities. The very same age group. So I wonder how that factors in?

Excellent question Slayer and why I think you see the mainstream media misportraying these disturbances in Iran and the Administration staying quiet about them is because this is the local Iranian reaction to the...ECONOMIC CRISIS.

So we are being forced fed that it's about social politics and I don't think it is.

I think it's about young people who can't find jobs, and have no chance of finding jobs that know the guy who just held the President's job did not get them jobs, and don't want to take a chance he 'might' get it right in his next term.

Obama literally has to be sitting in the White House right now trembling and saying "But for the grace of my mighty propoganda machine there go I!"

Think for a second what kind of message it would send to the American people if the 'repressed' Iranians were demonstrating to this extent against a totaltarian regime over jobs????

Over the economy????

Then look at the bailouts, how credit markets are still frozen, how unemployment keeps climbing here...

Do you honestly think this Administration, and our Corporate Leaders could afford to take the chance of letting this be seen as an economic revolt?

Do you honestly think the Iranian government has taken down IRNA their own official news site on the Internet? It's been down since the 15th of June now. Why? The Iranian government doesn't want to put out it's own international propoganda.

This thing reeks to high heavens and people are being fooled and manipulated once again, and the smartest and brightest amongst us are as usual right in the vangaurd of the charge with their Toyotas and Walmart clothes desperately trying to find yet another vein in their own wrists to slice once again.

When do we grow up and stop reacting like emotional children and start thinking like the tactitioners and strategists of the world who manipulate all these things?

When do we stop drinking the Kool Aide and do exactly what so many people in Iran right now are doing and saying enough is enough.

Wow these are people really running their own country. Remember when Bush allegedly cheated to get re-elected so he could screw the USA over for another 4 years? Or when Gordon Brown was stuck in power without our permission?

People sat and moaned a bit on the computer then went and watched some TV and forgot all about it. Us westerners love watching these videos because it reminds us of Hollywood movies, but I couldn't see us ever actually doing it.

Remember the respect we all share now for these Iranian people when our U.S. Government & Israel tell us we need to go to war with them.

Remember them fighting for their freedom when our bombs drop on those same streets and homes.

When that begins, ask yourself: Who is bombing those good people in our name?

Remember it's not the people of Iran who are our enemies, but both of our governments. These good Iranian people are trying to show us by example of how to take control of their government when it gets out of control.

Freedom loving people don't want to be oppressed so let's leave Iran alone and let freedom ring.

[edit on 22-6-2009 by harrytuttle]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

My point is people are reacting emotionally to a propoganda machine's distortion of events and cheering in unison something that they can not have any credible idea is even good for the Middle East/Asia, the Iranian or the American people.

have you been reading through this thread?

or are you pretty much just using it as a platform for your thoughts on the subject

seriously - better you start another thread - bring all of this up there - because, I understand your argument

everyone in this thread - pretty sure - is up to understanding your argument too

it's just - that's not what we're talking about here

People are rushing to judgements and conclusions that at the end of the day might very well not have been in their individual or collective best interests to rush to and support.

what we're watching here is a series of events that are emotional - for the people involveed as well as for people who are watching them from half a world away

please forgive us our inability to detach and analyze to your satisfaction

Most people can't ...

translates directly into: "but - I can" I think

[edit on 6/22/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

Originally posted by malganis
Wow these are people really running their own country. Remember when Bush allegedly cheated to get re-elected so he could screw the USA over for another 4 years? Or when Gordon Brown was stuck in power without our permission?

People sat and moaned a bit on the computer then went and watched some TV and forgot all about it. Us westerners love watching these videos because it reminds us of Hollywood movies, but I couldn't see us ever actually doing it.

Huge difference though...

Gore conceded...

Mousavi was arrested....

Don't blame the American people for something they didn't do in a completely different situation. Although I do agree that the Iranians are exhibiting themselves as a powerful force within their own nation

reply to post by SLAYER69


Slayer you and I and several others have speculated in your excellent thread the New Great Game that nuetralizing Iran is a key ellement of the Power that Be's plans.

Many of us have speculated too that as loudly as Israel has beat the war drums for a direct open attack on Iran that it had to be smoke and a distraction to some type of covert action carried out by the Powers that Be to set Iran in play on the board.

There are no coincidences in life Slayer, this is that covert action, it's an attempt by Western Intelligence to fund and stage a revolution inside of Iran taking advantage of the most disgruntled faction to do it.

We sure weren't happy with the outcome of the 1979 Revolution as a nation politically and chances are if there is a real revolution taking place in Iran it might not have a favorable outcome either in the way many people are imagining it will.

I honestly feel we are being led to draw conclusions here and that it's very important for some faction in the Powers that Be that we draw that conclusion.

Naturally I feel it's my own best interest and the nation's not to fall for that manipulation or fail to rebel against it.

In fact from a tactical standpoint of wishing for a weak Iran, clearly the President does not enjoy a wide and broad range of support of the Iranian people which makes him an ideal leader from a Western perspective as he would not be able to rally or galvanize broad support in International matters between the West and Iran domestically.

He would be the guy you want to see in power unless you are in fact taking over the place, then you want your puppet in power.

Then the question becomes does yet another American puppet regime in Iran serve the American people's interest or the Corporate Oligarchs interest?

Three guesses on that one friend, and the first two don't count!

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

what we're watching here is a series of events that are emotional - for the people involveed as well as for people who are watching them from half a world away

In answer to your question I read through every thread I post on, but if you read through the threads I post on, once I make my original post to it, all other posts I then make to the thread are in response to people responding to me.

I don't consider responding to people's responses regarding the issues to be off topic or attempting to hijack a thread to promote a platform.

If you take the time to read through the thread you will see a large cross section of people elaborating on the OP's video and adding various ellements and theories to it to reflect their own views. I would say that is natural, I would say responding back specifically to people who respond to you regarding specific points on those specific points is not just natural but good manners even if you aren't responding with what they prefer to hear.

At the end of the day politics in all it's forms just like war in all it's form is merely business. Someone wants to 'win' and 'gain' something and someone else has to often 'loose' something or 'loose' period for that to happen.

As Clemenza said to Tom Higgins in the God Father II in accounting for his treason and duplicity "It's nothing personal, I have always liked Mike, it's just business".

Ending up on the 'winning' side of the deal usually requires taking the emotions with which people are easily manipulated with, out of it.

I feel for everyone involved and everyone in the world too, but I do my level best not to let it cloud my judgement.

I think it serves me well, even if at times others dissaprove.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the matter. These are mine.

[edit on 22/6/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

I don't consider responding to people's responses regarding the issues to be off topic or attempting to hijack a thread to promote a platform.

no - maybe not derailment, or promotion then - but a subtle (?) put down - yes

so, let me be blunt - hopefully without belittling or insulting

and - I can't speak for everyone - so, this one is just for me

there is no possible way any of us can know why any one person takes an interest in any given subject - why they would even care. You have no clue why this one caught my attention - as an example

what we are watching here - through the miracle of technology - is not an essay

I've been watching people be beaten, gassed and shot - dead.

I suspect and fear this will get worse before it gets better, and I ordinarily don't watch this sort of thing - for a variety of reasons - one being that I care so much it's an unbearable feeling to watch - and be able to do nothing

while you're theorizing about "the real reasons" behind everything - you seem to forget - the real reasons aren't in play right here - right now

don't tell me I'm too stupid to understand what's really happening or accuse me of being overly emotional when I'm watching people die in front of me - I'm not the only one here sitting in an armchair

I feel for everyone involved and everyone in the world too, but I do my level best not to let it cloud my judgement.

and yet - it has

this is why I suggested that you take your many valid points - and argue them in a separate thread

sometimes it's not about being right or wrong - not even here at ATS

sometimes we need to respect people's right to feel what they feel

and - thank you for letting me share my thoughts

[edit on 6/22/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

I find it hard to believe there's so much sympathy out there for the Iranian people from the Americans....You guys may still have to go there and Finnish off whats left....Not too mention everytime the U.S. has a problem with a country theres a revolt from within......ya I know whos doing this......CIA
Think people....

[edit on 22-6-2009 by colt122]

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

and - thank you for letting me share my thoughts

You are welcome, thank you for sharing them!

Thank you very much for sharing them.

An interesting event which tells about how divided Iranians are. Even the RG have problem with quelling protests.

A commander of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards has been arrested for refusing to obey Iran's Supreme Leader, according to reports from the Balatarin. General Ali Fazli, who was recently appointed as a commander of the Revolutionary Guards in the province of Tehran, is reported to have been arrested after he refused to carry out orders from the Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei to use force on people protesting the controversial re-election of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Fazli, a veteran of the devastating Iran-Iraq war is also believed to have been sacked and taken to an unknown location.

www.freerepublic.com...

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Spiramirabilis

 

and - thank you for letting me share my thoughts

You are welcome, thank you for sharing them!

Thank you very much for sharing them.

Thank you both for finding some common ground... Proto, I think your points are interesting... I believe they need some honing though and that they would be perfect for a thread dedicated to the "Forces behind the Iranian situation" or something of that kind. Believe me, I'd be one of the first to post on it, as I'd like to discuss that...

But, as Spira has done a great job of pointing out, it's not necessarily in accordance with the spirit of this thread. Although I do appreciate anyone who contributes to a thread of mine, I would like to keep them somewhat focused.

In this situation, it was to celebrate an example whereby we can get a sense of the tide which turned between the protesters and the riot police...

As peoples, as earthlings, as humans, it's sights such as this which shows us that it is ultimately the people who have the greatest voices...