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Did Jesus' Teachings Abolish the Old Testament Laws?

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posted on Jun, 15 2009 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
You might say that Moses was defending his PhD up there on the mountain, surrounded by his cleverest men in front of Ia^er, where they wrote, counted, cross referanced, tested and disputed while Moses defended his law. When the "conclave" ended, God appears, annd basically reading through his doctor assignment, his compendium of laws made by himself, or written nd-or passed over since the creation of man, perhaps asking him a couple of questions, commenting, remindeing him, and probably striking somethng out, before passing him with two heavy diplomas, a pair of precision cut stone tablets with the Ten Commandments carved in with God's favorite stylus, Finger-of-God(tm), discribed as a powerful ray of white light in the Hebrew tongue.


lol, do you even read the bible?

the law was to be presented was by god's own voice, from the mountain in front of the assembly

exodus chapters 19 - 20, god gives his law to the people personally. they were assembled before the mount and god from a cloud spoke. so the 10 commandments were not the only from god. why? because the people were to terrified to continue! the rest of the law was handed to them by moses.

20:[19] And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
[20] And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
[21] And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

from that moment forward, the isrealites let moses dictate the law to them.

so this wasnt some trial and error thing like you claim.




posted on Jun, 15 2009 @ 01:33 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 

its not no good reason. its not a law given to me. im not under obligation nor am i instructed to follow it.
We are not supposed to judge others on keeping certain things that only affect that person. Not keeping a Sabbath does not affect anyone but yourself.
Paul is not too clear on the subject because he was fighting against a lot of people who thought everyone needed to be subjected to the Law. That extreme view had to be counteracted so he did not have much room to teach on Old Testament principles. He does claim in Acts that he had never gone against the Law or the Temple himself and he apparently kept the Sabbath himself. John and James talk about a law but it is not too clear what it involves from their writings other than being decent to others.
The Book of Revelation might be the best place to find an affirmation of the Sabbath principle. In the future, (the future to John but our present) the Judaisers are not a factor and the threat comes from the false church of Babylon. They make their own day of the week and force everyone to comply with it. The response from God can be found in Rev. 14:

" 6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

The Angel demanding worship of the creator is reminiscent of the the giving of the Law at Sinai.
The "law of God, and the faith of Jesus" implies that even though we have a savior in Jesus, the Gospel is about the Law of God and Faith.
The Sabbath becomes an issue in the last days because we have an antichrist going about demanding observance of an anti-sabbath. We have those who receive a mark and then we have those who are sealed.
In the Ten Commandments, we can see the seal of God in the fourth because it says why God can make demands of us. He is the one who created everything.
The angel of Revelation points us back to that seal of God and declares that it is time to recognize the creator and His commandments, in the face of the Beast and his demands for people to follow him.
In a world without end, it could be that the issue would never come up or be a thing of contention, but the issue is forced by Satan who knows his time is short and sees a nice convenient way to take down the whole world in a singe sweep.
We have no reason to be ignorant of the Law and we do not need to make a hedge around it against all those Jews forcing circumcision on all believers. Those days are gone forever and the Judaisers are not a threat, and we can speak boldly for the law without harm to Jesus and his atoning sacrifice.


[edit on 15-6-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jun, 15 2009 @ 05:00 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


It's funny how you dismiss things that seem to clearly point at Saturday worship by the early christians. But because it was "easy" was the only reason to do it on the true sabbath? Please.....



posted on Jun, 16 2009 @ 01:40 AM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
It's funny how you dismiss things that seem to clearly point at Saturday worship by the early christians. But because it was "easy" was the only reason to do it on the true sabbath? Please.....


but it doesnt clearly point to sunday worship, you just say it does.

why would paul keep the sabbath with a group of people who did not serve christ? if paul was observing the sabbath, wouldnt he have done it at home, or at least with other christians?

no, instead paul went to the synagogue, to reason with the jews (which is were sabbath observing jews (at least the faithfully strong) would be) that jesus was the christ.

that was preaching, not observance

your flogging a dead horse. this topic was debated and settled by the elder body in jerusalem back in the first century.

it was evident to them that the law was of no consequence because the gentile christians (people who didnt observe the sabbath nor follow the law) were without doubt receiving holy spirit.

what more proof do you need than something being made evident from god?



posted on Jun, 16 2009 @ 01:54 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
The Sabbath becomes an issue in the last days because we have an antichrist going about demanding observance of an anti-sabbath. We have those who receive a mark and then we have those who are sealed.
In the Ten Commandments, we can see the seal of God in the fourth because it says why God can make demands of us. He is the one who created everything.


how does the mark = the sabbath?


In a world without end, it could be that the issue would never come up or be a thing of contention, but the issue is forced by Satan who knows his time is short and sees a nice convenient way to take down the whole world in a singe sweep.


are you serious? god is going to destroy you because of which day you go to church?

what about religions that do services during the week?

look, if you want to find fault with the world's christian religions, the sabbath is probably the least of their worries.

most teach
- immortality of the soul (despite it being the same lie in eden)
- hellfire
- trinity
- dont preach
etc etc etc

you think that god would spare a religion that practiced all these things as long as they practiced them on saturday?

jesus, when identifying who true christians would be, never mentioned the sabbath.

john 13:[34] A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
[35] By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

nothing about the sabbath or the law.

nothing about the antichrist or sunday worship.



posted on Jun, 16 2009 @ 02:20 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

nothing about the sabbath or the law.

nothing about the antichrist or sunday worship.



Hmm, if you do good all the time, then you won't have any issues with Sabbath, Sunday or w/e


I think Sabbath is about not doing anything evil or selfish on that day. So why not make everyday a Sabbath



posted on Jun, 16 2009 @ 07:53 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 

you think that god would spare a religion that practiced all these things as long as they practiced them on saturday?

Why would you think anything is going to be spared?
No institutions are going to just continue on, as if nothing was wrong, after the second coming. People will be spared. Some of them. Not people who are in Babylon or worship the Beast or the Image of the Beast.
The Angel is announcing that the world needs to have preached to it that people have to turn back to the God who created them, and away from the forces that are demanding the allegiance of people to these substitutes for God.
In Revelation, there are two types of people. Those who receive the mark, and those who are sealed. The mark is the mark of the Beast and the seal is the seal of God. Those who have the mark are killed by the return of Christ to judge the world. Those who have the seal are saved.
The Roman Catholic Church claims that Sunday observance is the proof that they are above God and have the power to change God's Law. God claims He has the primacy in the universe and the reason for that is that He is the creator of everything. His seal is in the fourth commandment, where when you observe that day, you are recognizing who your God is.
So, there is the mark of the usurper pretend god, and there is the seal of the actual God. The mark is a bad thing. The seal is a good thing. The mark makes you die. The seal allows you to live.




[edit on 16-6-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jun, 16 2009 @ 08:00 AM
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reply to post by ahnggk
 


I think Sabbath is about not doing anything evil or selfish on that day. So why not make everyday a Sabbath
A sabbath is a day that you do no work. Work as in what you normally do to make a living.
It has nothing to do with being good or being selfish, unless you have people working for you. You would be bad and selfish to not give your workers a day off once a week. It is in the law.
How about you were my servant and I told you every day is the same. Would you think it was fine to never have a day off? I doubt it.



posted on Jun, 16 2009 @ 08:19 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Locoman8
It's funny how you dismiss things that seem to clearly point at Saturday worship by the early christians. But because it was "easy" was the only reason to do it on the true sabbath? Please.....


but it doesnt clearly point to sunday worship, you just say it does.

why would paul keep the sabbath with a group of people who did not serve christ? if paul was observing the sabbath, wouldnt he have done it at home, or at least with other christians?

no, instead paul went to the synagogue, to reason with the jews (which is were sabbath observing jews (at least the faithfully strong) would be) that jesus was the christ.

that was preaching, not observance

your flogging a dead horse. this topic was debated and settled by the elder body in jerusalem back in the first century.

it was evident to them that the law was of no consequence because the gentile christians (people who didnt observe the sabbath nor follow the law) were without doubt receiving holy spirit.

what more proof do you need than something being made evident from god?






Do you not understand that Sabbath is more than just resting on that day? It is a day of worship and bible study. A day of doing God's work instead of your own work. JMDewey is correct in saying that the Sabbath is a way of identifying God's people from the rest of the world. It was a small group of people (patriarchs/Israelites) who were the only ones observing the sabbath in their time while most other cultures worshipped on sunday in observance of the sun god. Catholics adopted sunday for two reasons. To bring more pagans into christianity and to discern themselves from Jews. If you really think about it, christians were never meant to be completely separate from Jews. In fact, the first century christians were considered a certain sect of judaism. Because Jews were being persecuted around the close of the first century, many christians were trying to cut clean from judaism.

How does this one thing Jesus say, exclude the Sabbath? Just because Jesus didn't say "Follow the 7th day sabbath and keep it holy" doesn't mean is wasn't meant to be followed. The new testament is written in a very different manner. More of a biography of Jesus along with letters passed around the churches as opposed to God's defined laws and prophets of the old testament.



posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 01:32 AM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
Just because Jesus didn't say "Follow the 7th day sabbath and keep it holy" doesn't mean is wasn't meant to be followed. The new testament is written in a very different manner. More of a biography of Jesus along with letters passed around the churches as opposed to God's defined laws and prophets of the old testament.


consider what you are saying.

nothing saying we SHOULD follow the mosaic law and the sabbath vs. several passages that say that christians are not bound to mosaic law.

your entire argument is built of assumptions (like abraham following the sabbath) and ignoring certain passages (acts for example)

your distaste for what i am saying almost certainly arises from your lack of understanding of what im saying.

the bible in black and white says that christians are discharged from the mosaic law. this is back up with several other passages that clarify for us.

to understand why, one must understand what the purpose of the mosaic law was. until you do that, you arent going to understand a word im saying.



posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 02:26 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 

the bible in black and white says that christians are discharged from the mosaic law.
Paul says if we are dead in Christ, we are not under the law. What he goes on to explain is that the Law has no power to condemn us.
The laws meant for dealing with our sins are no longer in effect because Jesus had done away with those things through his own sacrifice.
The Law of the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Sabbath is not meant to condemn us but to give us life. Jesus never said there was anything wrong with it, just how self appointed judges had ruined it for people.
In the last days, the Sabbath can give us life in another way, as to identify us as not being of Babylon.



posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 02:32 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
Paul says if we are dead in Christ, we are not under the law. What he goes on to explain is that the Law has no power to condemn us.
The laws meant for dealing with our sins are no longer in effect because Jesus had done away with those things through his own sacrifice.


and paul said that because a conclusion was reached by the elders in jerusalem.

luke recorded that ruling in acts. Black and White.


The Law of the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Sabbath is not meant to condemn us but to give us life. Jesus never said there was anything wrong with it, just how self appointed judges had ruined it for people.
In the last days, the Sabbath can give us life in another way, as to identify us as not being of Babylon.


you still havent shown me how the mark of the beast is sunday worship.



posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 04:46 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 

you still havent shown me how the mark of the beast is sunday worship.
Mostly verses that favor the Sabbath.
Ex. 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Isaiah 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
20To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Isaiah 56:2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
Isaiah 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Ezekiel 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.
Psalm 96:5 For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens.
Psalm 119:89 For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
Psalm 111:7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.
8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.
Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Matthew 5:17-19 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:. . .
Revelation 15: 2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Above is the description of ones who overcome the Beast by keeping the commandments and faith in Jesus.
Below is information about the beast and the Mark.
Rev. 13:5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies;. . .
6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name. . .
This looks like the same thing as the little horn of Daniel 7:8 . . . in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Rev. 13:16. . .causeth all,. . . to receive a mark. . .
Revelation 14:9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
2 Thessalonians 2:
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

You have to figure it out. What does it, is the quotes from the Catholic Church where they claim to have the authority to change the law and enforce the breaking of Sunday as a sin.


[edit on 17-6-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 07:50 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


im sorry, im still not making the connection.

a sign is different than a seal, and a seal is different than a mark, and a mark is different than a sign. so i dont see how you are making it all the same thing.

marking makes me think of a scripture in ezekial -

9:[1] He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.
[2] And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.
[3] And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
[4] And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
[5] And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
[6] Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
[7] And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
[8] And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?
[9] Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.
[10] And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.
[11] And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.


in this case, "marking" had nothing to do with the sabbath since it is referring to israelites who likely observed the sabbath being destroyed.

the marking was a dividing, a setting apart. differentiating between those who longed for justice, and those enjoying the injustice.

revelation is VERY similar.

13:[15] And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
[16] And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
[17] And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
[18] Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

all those that worship the beast receive the mark. they prefer the beast over god's kingdom

to understand the mark, we must understand the beast and what the mark does. we know that the mark affects "buying and selling", im not sure i see how the sabbath fits into that.

second the beast is political, not religious. daniel sets the precedence by showing us governments that are depicted as mutated beasts.

again, i see no connection with the sabbath.



posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 08:03 AM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
so this wasnt some trial and error thing like you claim.


If the Torah is the product of the Allknowing, then why are there references to winged, four legged insects in Leviticus 11:23? Have you ever seen a four legged grasshopper or for that matter any four legged insect? With or without wings. The only insect I know about which seems to have only four legs, is the "water runner" of the Gerridae family, but it too has six legs, the front legs are just very small.

[edit on 17/6/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]



posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 09:44 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


The mosaic law was made in order to set rules for God's nation, Israel in order to have them live righteously. This was so Israel could be an example to all other nations and kingdoms. Israel was to be God's example to the world on how to live righteously. The "covenant" made with Israel was the agreement to follow the laws. Laws that already existed but were not written in stone yet. The levitical system of priests and sacrifices were a temporary institute until Christ came to this world to die as the ultimate sin sacrifice and eliminating the Levitical sacrifice system. Jesus didn't do away with God's spiritual laws of the Ten Commandments. You seem to agree with this to the extent that commandment number four be obsolete. My main concentration in this thread is to explain how the Ten Commandments, the backbone of God's Laws, were never done away with by Jesus. I am far from confused in this matter. I had different views on this a few years ago when I was a baptist. I cannot be convinced back to that way of thinking. I've read it and I've studied it and it stands that God's commandments are still to be followed. The sabbath is included in these commandments. No further discussion in that matter if you believe the commandments are to be followed. Don't pick and choose your commandments. If you break one, you break them all.



second the beast is political, not religious. daniel sets the precedence by showing us governments that are depicted as mutated beasts.

again, i see no connection with the sabbath.


The false messiah gives the beast political power, much like how the popes of old chose the kings of the roman empire. The beast and false messiah are tied together. The political beast gives way to a church/state government that rules the world. How does the sabbath tie in with this? Well, the Roman Catholics are the ones who originated the sunday worship over the sabbath worship, spiritually abominating and desolating God's holy day of worship. This same religious institute will gain power in the beast nation of the European Union (modern roman empire). To buy and sell with the mark..... sunday is already a "closed" day for many companies. You may tie in sunday with this. I personally think the mark will be the result of thoughts and actions (forhead and hands) but may be physical in nature through rfid technology holding bank accounts and credit cards in the microchip. Many possibilities out there. All you can do is wait and see. I do believe the sabbath vs. sunday scenario will play an important part in these events.



posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by miriam0566
 

Laws that already existed but were not written in stone yet.


Indeed. Just as Jesus repeated many of them for us. "Love your neighbour as you love yourself" is not the words of Jesus in Matthew 22:34ff etc. which are often credited Jesus. They are from Deuteronomy 6:4f and Leviticus 19:18. Jesus narrowed the whole Law into one commandment: "Love eachother!"

And in Matthew 19 we can read about a rich man who asks Jesus what he needs to do in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven:
Matt 19:16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" 17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

In Matthew 5:18 Jesus emphesize that the Law is to be taught and followed in order to enter Life: I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not an iota (Hebr. Jod, the Hebrew equivalent of Gr. letter Iota, is the smallest letter in Hebrew - ' -), not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

And Jacob says in the second chapter of his epistle: 8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. 12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

People can quote Saul Paulus as much as they want, but his words are the words of a Quissling. Luring good people to be subject to the Law, but teach them not to follow it. His betrayal is so obvious, but since he presents the simplest way to salvation, eventhough it contradicts Jesus, the Christians give Paul power beyond Jesus and the Holy Spirit. like you can see below:

Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Romans 4:13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

What a sweet talking satan. He propose a very clever method of getting rid of crime and sin: Simply burn the laws, so that killers, liars and paedophiles no longer are criminals, since there is no law condemning their acts. What a smarta$$. I'm really impressed with his kind of logics. Almost sounds like something George Bush could have said....



posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 12:21 PM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


all those that worship the beast receive the mark. they prefer the beast over god's kingdom
to understand the mark, we must understand the beast and what the mark does. we know that the mark affects "buying and selling", im not sure i see how the sabbath fits into that.
second the beast is political, not religious. daniel sets the precedence by showing us governments that are depicted as mutated beasts.
again, i see no connection with the sabbath.
Well, you are making a good start. Just keep thinking about it.
Justice comes from following the rule of law. You loose Justice when you have judges who ignore certain laws they do not like and make ones up that they think would be good. The little horn speaks against the laws and "speak their own words". It thinks to change them and change the times specified. When the Catholic Church moved into territory that was already Christian, like they did in Northern England and the Celtic lands of the British Isles, what they did was get them to follow their date for Easter and once they adopted the Roman day, they were showing their allegiance to the Roman Church. When The Catholic Church makes their move on what was once Protestant America, they cause it to recognize legally the Roman false sabbath by passing a mandatory Sunday observance. People up to now who have been unthinkingly observing Sunday do not have the mark because they have not been directly confronted with it as being a choice as to meaning who they follow. Even when there is a law to keep Sunday, it is still not the mark. Once the next logical step, which the Church always takes, to outlaw the real Sabbath, then it does become the mark. By this time, it should be perfectly clear to everyone what the argument is about and no one can be able to claim ignorance of the Law as an excuse.



posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 03:53 PM
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im sorry guys. im REALLY sick and i dont have too much energy so i cant go this fast. im sorry



posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 04:23 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
im sorry guys. im REALLY sick and i dont have too much energy so i cant go this fast. im sorry


hope you feel better soon!



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