Did Jesus' Teachings Abolish the Old Testament Laws?

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

From this I guess the obvious answer to your question would be that Jesus probably had his own school.

It seems so but not of a normal type. He picked out people who did not fit the normal picture of a student of law.
He taught a deeper understanding of the Law that required a perception of spiritual concepts and not just outward appearances. They were so worried about their own holiness they could not risk defiling themselves by helping another person in need who seemed like he might be of an inferior status to themselves. Jesus had to make them aware that they were not so great as to be in a position to be judging others.




[edit on 15-6-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by miriam0566
the ten commandments or "tablets of testimony" were by no means the only law given by god.

Oh yeah? Haven't you read what the Good Book says when the Ten Commandments were announced?

Deuteronomy 5:22 These are the [ten] commandments the Lord proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly on the mountain, from out of the fire, the cloud and the darkness. He said nothing more. He wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.

See? The only laws God actually gave Moses, were what was written on the two first set of stone tables, which Moses soon destroyed. Moses was a great and wise lawmaker, and therefore his own additional 603 laws were also sealed and kept safely in a book scroll inside the small wooden Ark, while the Ten Commandments were kept inside the golden Ark.

Originally posted by Locoman8
If you recall, God told the Israelites to REMEMBER the Sabbath and to KEEP it holy. It was already holy and it was already in existence. How much proof do you need?

you proof hangs on the word "remember"?

if i say to you, "remember me when you visit" does that automatically mean the statement is something that occurred in the past?

what about this...

god institutes a covenant...

exodus 13:[3] And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this place: there shall no leavened bread be eaten.

so they came out of egypt before this?

or what about this?

judges 8:[34] And the children of Israel remembered not the LORD their God, who had delivered them out of the hands of all their enemies on every side:

had they literally forgotten god? no, god wasnt in their focus.

judges 16:[28] And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord GOD, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes.

had god forgotten samson? of course not. samson was assking that god pay attention to him.

"remember the sabbath and to keep it holy." if the sabbath was just given to them, then likely god was telling them to "pay attention to the sabbath and keep it holy"

the hebrew doesnt disagree. "zakar" can also mean - to mark (so as to be recognized), (make) mention (of), be mindful, think on,

It's funny how you simply blow off reasonable assumtion where there is not definitive answer such as the law not being "written" before Moses. Let's maybe concentrate on the laws as explained in the New Testament, because there's much more speaking of KEEPING the commandments and laws, than not. The New Testament says to keep the comamndments. Not 9 out of 10 or excluding the Sabbath, but ALL OF THEM. There's no proof of any being done away with. They are simply written on the minds and hearts of christians.... not on tablets of stone.

again, show me the scripture that says christians must keep the ten commandments.

you are grouping all laws together and they dont go together. your taking a scripture like...

john 15:[10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

then saying, see! it says to keep the ten commandments! but it doesnt. which commandments?

matt 28:[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
[20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

which one of the 10 commandments says to preach and baptize?

john 13:[34] A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

this one can be summed up as the spirit of the law. this one does have traces in the mosaic law.

---------------------------------------

seriously locoman, your not fully understanding what im saying.

christians follow the spirit of the law. jesus summed this up with 2 sentences, love god, love your neighbor.

was the mosaic law bad? no, it served it purpose. its purpose was to remind israel that they needed a saviour. it was to point to christ as the messiah (since he was the only person who could fulfill (obey perfectly) the law)

after jesus. the law was finished. does this mean that gods standards changed?

definitely no, mal 3:[6] For I am the LORD, I change not;

now take the sabbath.. what was the sabbath for? what was he spirit behind the sabbath.

the sabbath was to keep things in perspective, to put god first in your life. to take time to study his word. to meditate on god.

if you do that on a regular basis, why would one need a sabbath?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

God nearly had his own son killed for his sins.

Why would you call Jesus God's son? The rest of your post seems to be refuting that he was.

Then I suspect you are biased, I have never denied Jesus being a son of God, or even THE Son of God. According to Moses says a rightious Israelite is a son of God (De 14:1 "You are the sons of God"). Since I find Jesus more than righteous enough, I tend to call him The Son of God.

So Jesus wandered off somewhere and lived as a hermit on a mountain, or something? Why would he go to all that trouble to pull off a hoax? Your view of Christianity being nothing more than a bad joke makes no sense to me. Why would you believe any of it?

Hoax? Those are your words. I'd say he managed to create quite a bit, before the persecution started for good and he was crucified. Hermit? No I guess he finally got some time to relax with his wife and children. The Koran says he lived to become a 120 the limit God set after the Flood, and which is also scientifically proven fact, given that our cells' only carry enough telomers to sustain a body with new fresh cells in approx. 120 years. Funny how people knew this 4,500 years ago.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Deuteronomy 5:22 These are the [ten] commandments the Lord proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly on the mountain, from out of the fire, the cloud and the darkness. He said nothing more. He wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.

See? The only laws God actually gave Moses, were what was written on the two first set of stone tables,

exodus 19:[3] And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;

19:[20] And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

exodus 24:[9] Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
[13] And Moses rose up, and his minister Joshua: and Moses went up into the mount of God.
[15] And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.
[18] And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.

so moses was going up the mountain multiple times for the fun of it?

reply to post by miriam0566

the sabbath was to keep things in perspective, to put god first in your life. to take time to study his word. to meditate on god.

if you do that on a regular basis, why would one need a sabbath?

Boy, that is different. I know this is one of the standard possible answers to the Sabbath thing, but how do you get that from the fourth commandment? God seemed to go to a lot of trouble putting in a lot of extra stuff if that was what he meant.
Why not "At Least once every seven days, make sure you spend some time reflecting on me."? Seems that would have been pretty simple. He said he sanctified a specific day.
Why did Jesus not just say to the Pharisees, "I spit on your Sabbath!"? Instead he said, "The Son of Man is Lord also of the Sabbath."



[edit on 15-6-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by miriam0566


reply to post by miriam0566


My memory isn't always as good as it should be, the text should say "and he "added" - and not "said" - nothing more".

Deuteronomy 31:24 After Moses finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end, 25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord: 26 "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God. There it will remain as a witness against you".

The book of the laws of Moses, were not kept inside the Ark of the Covenant of the Lord, but beside it.

Exodus 24:9 Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, clear as the sky itself. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.

12 The Lord said to Moses, "Come up to me on the mountain and stay here, and I will give you the tablets of stone, with the law and commands I have written to instruct you."

God gave the ten commandments to Moses in order to instruct him. Every law in the Torah can be broken down to one or more of the Ten Commandments. The ten commandments was Moses' version of the Spark of Heaven. Which is the foundation of the Law Moses made, where the ten commandments is the only thing God really wrote and commanded, the rest of the laws is a witness of Moses' rightiousness and understanding of God's sense of justice. However, God has denounced many of the laws of Moses, most of them being based on older traditions. Like food hygiene for instance and sacrifice of fat and blood. The ten commandments were the principles.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Boy, that is different. I know this is one of the standard possible answers to the Sabbath thing, but how do you get that from the fourth commandment? God seemed to go to a lot of trouble putting in a lot of extra stuff if that was what he meant.

its not extra.

people put ALOT of focus on life in general. people mainly worry about money.

god is saying no... for one day, stop working and think about something more important.

this is why jesus said..

matt 6:
[24] No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
[25] Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
[26] Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
[27] Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
[28] And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
[29] And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
[30] Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
[31] Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
[32] (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
[33] But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


ok, you are taking the one instance of moses receiving the 10 commandments from god and saying that its prove that there was no other law given.

but moses went up the mountains multiple times. wrote down multiple commandments. all from god.

yes, the 10 commandments were the back bone of this but you are ignoreing the other times moses recieved commandments from god.

reply to post by miriam0566


The ten commandments is the only law given to Moses from God. The rest is inspired by God or given to earlier people, keeping traditions and laws God has helped them with. Abraham was the first to be treated with circumcision, and after that all male children of Abraham received the same treatment and it became a law. When Noah enetered his ark, he chse among clean and unclean animals. Hence, not laws even invented by Moses, but laws God and these people agreed uppon thousands of years earlier. There is much more.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
The ten commandments is the only law given to Moses from God. The rest is inspired by God or given to earlier people, keeping traditions and laws God has helped them with.

so when moses went up the mountain all those times, what was he doing? playing poker?

reply to post by miriam0566

its not extra.

You may not have understood what I meant.
I was talking about all the stuff in the fourth commandment that would have been unnecessary if it was so simple. God describes the creation and the day he rested and how he sanctified it, and all the different specific things that you have to do and what you should not do on the Sabbath. Does all that just go out the window? Somehow that gets turned into "reflect"?
What I do is make a mental note of when the sun goes down on Friday night and when it goes down on Saturday night. I realize that it is not the same as every other day. Whenever I think of something I might do, I think about whether it might be appropriate for that day. Like maybe I need to work on my car but it is something I knew about all week but did not get around to it. Also my car is not going to break if I waited to the next day to work on it.(I would skip it) I do not go shopping because I do not want to make someone else work on that day. The point is I at least think about things I am doing. I can never claim to be an actual Sabbath keeper in the strict sense of a Pharisee. We do not keep the Sabbath to save us. But a flat out refusal to consider it seems a little out of place in the mind of the saved. Rebelling against the Sabbath for no good reason should make you reflect on your motivation for that attitude.


[edit on 15-6-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Rebelling against the Sabbath for no good reason should make you reflect on your motivation for that attitude.

its not no good reason. its not a law given to me. im not under obligation nor am i instructed to follow it.

reply to post by miriam0566


Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The First Century A.D.

INSTITUTION OF THE SABBATH
"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." (Genesis 2:1-3 )

JESUS
"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read." (Luke 4:16)

JESUS
"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:16,17)

JESUS
"But pray ye that your flight be not in winter, neither on the Sabbath day." (Matthew 24, 20).
NOTE: Jesus asked his disciples to pray that in the flight from the doomed city of Jerusalem they would not have to flee on the Sabbath day. This flight took place in 70 A.D. 40 years after the Jesus' crucfixion and we see here that Jesus fully expected His church to be observing His true seventh day Sabbath that He Himself proclaimed to be the Lord of.

JESUS' FOLLOWERS
"And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments and rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment." (Luke 23:56.) Did these women make a mistake and keep the wrong sabbath or was it that Christ NEVER EVER hinted that there would be a change forthcoming???

PAUL
"And Paul, as his manner was went in unto them, and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures" (Acts 17:2) Did Christ fail to inform Paul on the road to Damascus that there's now a new sabbath? Or rather does the silence of Christ speak volumes against the papal sabbath???

PAUL AND THE GENTILES
"And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. And the next Sabbath came almost the whole city together to hear the Word of God." Acts 13:42, 44.

Here we find Gentiles in a Gentile city gathering on the Sabbath. It was not a synagogue meeting in verse 44, for it says almost the whole city came together, verse 42 says they asked to hear the message the "next Sabbath."

And get this: The Bible does not say it is the "old Jewish Sabbath that was passed away," but the Spirit of God, writing the Book of Acts some 30 years after the crucifixion, calls it "the next Sabbath."

JOHN
"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day." Rev.1:10 (Mark 2:28, Isa.58:13, Ex.20:10, Clearly show the Sabbath to be the Lord's day).
The term "Lord's day" in reference to sunday came later. The Biblical meaning for Lord's day is the day that God calls "My holy day" and the day that Jesus said He is Lord of.

JOSEPHUS
"There is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the Barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come!" M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries on China and Japan" (edited by Dennys), Vol 4, Nos 7, 8, p.100.

PHILO
Declares the seventh day to be a festival, not of this or of that city, but of the universe. M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries," Vol. 4, 99

So we have incontrovertible proof that the observance of sunday was NOT practiced by the apostolic church of the first century. Although the poison of apostasy had already begun, it did not reach the ascendancy until the passage of a few more centuries.

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
The ten commandments is the only law given to Moses from God. The rest is inspired by God or given to earlier people, keeping traditions and laws God has helped them with.

so when moses went up the mountain all those times, what was he doing? playing poker?

I guess he was going through the history of covenants with God and received all the laws and regulations Moses' forefathers had come up with which God had agreed to and made covenants from. The first real law was to multiply and become many. At the time of Moses there had been made many limitations to what was accepted of sexual conduct. Next law was basically that we can eat all (green) herbs with seeds or plants yielding fruits bearing seeds, which probably worked well until some dude came uppon belladonna, angel's trumpet and other strange-fruits. Doubt and fear probably rose in them, and they started complicating and narrowing the laws, with the only trace left at the time of Moses, being a tiny referance to how you shouldn't grow poisenous plants in your garden.

This seven day week (7000 years) is all about wisdom, law, science and technological progress. That was the path Adam and Eve chose for us some 6000 years ago uppon the red dirt ground under the branches and lamps of the strangest of trees.

[edit on 15/6/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]

Originally posted by miriam0566
no, im suggesting that sometimes you cant always be sure who is on the other side of the telephone.

god does not lie, which is exactly why the bible is so important.

not all "inspired expressions" are from god.

And if one doesn't know the father, then they have no way of knowing what is and what isn't.

What you are saying is I should be careful that I recieved a serpent when I asked for a fish, a stone instead of bread.

can you be close to a friend by ignoring his letters? ignoring his phone calls perhaps?

And yet, neither of those are closer than a direct link from the source. If the source was open for those who wrote the bible, then why would it be closed off to others?

jesus was god's son correct? and yet he read scriptures, and he quoted from it extensively.

And yet he says the scribes are not the authority. Scribes are the ones who write scriptures. He says the people themselves are the ones with the authority. Why? Because the father is within and if you are acting off the will of the father then your instructions and understanding come from within. But yet, you ask me to replace that in exchange with a book?

do i think a personal relationship with god means reading and accepting the bible? a whole souled yes.

And yet, the bible gives in the same manner this world gives in. And yet, Jesus says the father does not give in the same way the world gives. And yet, it says the holy spirit will teach me all things, not the holy scripture. I'm pretty sure Jesus said one must seek the truth, not accept what men give you as the truth.

jesus accepted scriptures as being from god. makes claims to the contrary all you like, there are plenty of references. he didnt dismiss it as a novelty.

Actually, the whole deal was the were all surprised that he knew so much without being studied in the scripture.

He does quote scripture and such, and it's not that the bible does not have it's place. It's just that you are not putting it in it's proper place when you elevate it into being the authority to be accepted. You doom yourself to not understanding when you accept.

If I build a house and I put the foundation above the roof, the house will fall. That does not mean that the foundation or the roof itself was bad or false in themselves. But as I did not put them in their proper places, they were unable to fulfill their purpose. If we put the foundation under the roof, the house does not fall. Same parts, just putting things in their proper places.

Yes, I do agree that the bible is in part divinely inspired. That is what drew me to it in the first place. When I read Jesus I recognize the father in him. I do not just accept Jesus because people tell me too, I recognize the father in him, in his understanding and so forth. Even from just a story in a book I see the father. I also see the opposite of that as well in other places. But when you elevate the bible into such an authority, you then replace the real word and real relationship with a book you have accepted.

Psalm 82 - those who accept the wicked do not understand. They walk on in darkness. All the foundations of the earth are out of course. Why are they out of course? Because all things need to be in their proper places, and they are not. The pharisees sit in the seat of moses, aka not in the proper places.

I stick up for the bible all the time. But it is not the authority.

on stone, the ten commandments.

dictated, the rest of the law.

in fact, moses went up the mountain many times for long periods of time. all the while writing the law down.

this was even BEFORE the ten commandments was given.

the ten commandments or "tablets of testimony" were by no means the only law given by god.

im not sure if that answers your question.

The thing is the 10 commandments are based on understanding. The other laws are more social type laws. Like speeding in modern times. Like the part about planting crops. That is probably a good idea, but to liken it to a law on the same level as the 10 commandments is just not correct IMO. It is god's laws that are the important ones(the 10 commandments), but I still follow our social laws and such as well. I still stop at stop signs etc.

The 10 commandments are sins against god. The other laws are not sins against god, they are just in most cases bad ideas. It's not a sin against god to smoke cigarettes, but of course it is a bad idea to do such and in the "spirit" of things shouldn't be done. But it is different than the 10 commandments. Do you see what I am getting at here? There is a reason the 10 commandments were carried on. They will never change. The laws of society/men, those do change.

your just ignoring what im saying.

No I'm not. He doesn't do what those things say. If it says to kill the man who does something, and that you are to bear witness to it, and he doesn't then he isn't fulfilling that part of the law. He does however fulfill the laws where he doesn't commit the sins to begin with.

the difference between us and jesus is that jesus was given the right to judge.

john 5:[30] I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

matt 7:1 wasnt talking about jesus....

There is a difference between making good judgments for oneself, and judging other people. Either way, Jesus doesn't judge anyone, and instead forgives those who sin rather than judge them as the mosiac law says they are to be.

[edit on 15-6-2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by Locoman8
INSTITUTION OF THE SABBATH
(Genesis 2:1-3 )

the creation days were not literal days. so which day was blessed?

some believe that we are still living in the "7th" or sabbath of creation.

JESUS
(Luke 4:16)

of course jesus observed the sabbath. how else could he fulfill the law?

JESUS
And he said unto him, if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:16,17)

as i stated before, which commandments? stop lumping them all together.

JESUS
"But pray ye that your flight be not in winter, neither on the Sabbath day." (Matthew 24, 20).
NOTE: Jesus asked his disciples to pray that in the flight from the doomed city of Jerusalem they would not have to flee on the Sabbath day. This flight took place in 70 A.D. 40 years after the Jesus' crucfixion and we see here that Jesus fully expected His church to be observing His true seventh day Sabbath that He Himself proclaimed to be the Lord of.

this scripture was to point out the importance of acting BEFORE the calamity instead during. jesus was making the point that waiting for the last minute would make things difficult. wintertime travel was very difficult as was sabbath traveling. the jews (who jesus was talking to) would have immediately been able to relate to what jesus was saying.

this scripture does not say that jesus expected christians to observe the sabbath

JESUS' FOLLOWERS
"And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments and rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment." (Luke 23:56.) Did these women make a mistake and keep the wrong sabbath or was it that Christ NEVER EVER hinted that there would be a change forthcoming???

likely, no one at this point fully appreciated what jesus' death would do. holy spirit (which helped then to discern things) was not poured out until pentecost.

and actually i believe jesus not only hinted to a change, but he instituted that change.

matt 5: [18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

what happens when the law is fulfilled? theres a hint.

"He said to them, "This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many." mark 14:24
"for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the remission of sins." matt 26:28
"Likewise, he took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you." luke 22:20

PAUL
"And Paul, as his manner was went in unto them, and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures" (Acts 17:2) Did Christ fail to inform Paul on the road to Damascus that there's now a new sabbath? Or rather does the silence of Christ speak volumes against the papal sabbath???

paul was preaching to them in the synagogue, how is that observing the sabbath? it was an opportunity to preach, not proof that he observed.

PAUL AND THE GENTILES
"And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. And the next Sabbath came almost the whole city together to hear the Word of God." Acts 13:42, 44.

Here we find Gentiles in a Gentile city gathering on the Sabbath. It was not a synagogue meeting in verse 44, for it says almost the whole city came together, verse 42 says they asked to hear the message the "next Sabbath."

again, preaching doesnt automatically mean observance. if you were preaching back then with paul, the convenience of preaching in a synagogue were people gather is obvious

And get this: The Bible does not say it is the "old Jewish Sabbath that was passed away," but the Spirit of God, writing the Book of Acts some 30 years after the crucifixion, calls it "the next Sabbath."

umm, it seems pretty obvious to me that acts 13 is referring to the literal "next sabbath", meaning one week later.

JOHN
"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day." Rev.1:10 (Mark 2:28, Isa.58:13, Ex.20:10, Clearly show the Sabbath to be the Lord's day).
The term "Lord's day" in reference to sunday came later. The Biblical meaning for Lord's day is the day that God calls "My holy day" and the day that Jesus said He is Lord of.

john's vision of revelations occurred over a period of time. it wasnt one vision. so no "lord's day" was not a particular sabbath in which john saw these things.

also consider that john was "in spirit" meaning that he was foreseeing something from the viewpoint of heaven. in otherwords, the events of revelation happen during the "lords day"

1 cor 1:[8] Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

"day of our lord" or "lord's day" is in the end.

1 cor 5:[5] To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

mark 2:28 refers to jesus as the lord of the sabbath. if you look further into this, you will see that a sabbath DOES remain, but its not the weekly sabbath of the mosaic law. (heb 4:11)

JOSEPHUS
"There is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the Barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come!" M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries on China and Japan" (edited by Dennys), Vol 4, Nos 7, 8, p.100.

josephus was a jew, and his statement says nothing of the obligations of christians.

PHILO
Declares the seventh day to be a festival, not of this or of that city, but of the universe. M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries," Vol. 4, 99

what does this have to do with christian obligations?

So we have incontrovertible proof that the observance of sunday was NOT practiced by the apostolic church of the first century. Although the poison of apostasy had already begun, it did not reach the ascendancy until the passage of a few more centuries.

i actually agree you, IF christians were obliged to observe the sabbath, its only logical that it would be on sat, instead of sun.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
I guess he was going through the history of covenants with God and received all the laws and regulations Moses' forefathers had come up with which God had agreed to and made covenants from.

lol, so basically you are saying that the whole 600+ laws were approved by god right?

Originally posted by miriam0566
lol, so basically you are saying that the whole 600+ laws were approved by god right?

Yes. It's up to us humans to figure out of this game we started 6000 years ago by the tree, where we basically took the power over our own destinies, climing free will and our own gods, instead of being nurtured by God in Paradise living eternally in bliss and fulfillment. So now, the only times we meet God is when we make something new, understand something new, Devellop a new concept of understanding something etc.

You might say that Moses was defending his PhD up there on the mountain, surrounded by his cleverest men in front of Ia^er, where they wrote, counted, cross referanced, tested and disputed while Moses defended his law. When the "conclave" ended, God appears, annd basically reading through his doctor assignment, his compendium of laws made by himself, or written nd-or passed over since the creation of man, perhaps asking him a couple of questions, commenting, remindeing him, and probably striking somethng out, before passing him with two heavy diplomas, a pair of precision cut stone tablets with the Ten Commandments carved in with God's favorite stylus, Finger-of-God(tm), discribed as a powerful ray of white light in the Hebrew tongue.

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by miriam0566
not all "inspired expressions" are from god.

And if one doesn't know the father, then they have no way of knowing what is and what isn't.

What you are saying is I should be careful that I recieved a serpent when I asked for a fish, a stone instead of bread.

no, im saying your ignorant not only of how god does things, but also of other forces at work.

And yet, neither of those are closer than a direct link from the source. If the source was open for those who wrote the bible, then why would it be closed off to others?

that is a really good question. the problem is, i know enough of your beliefs to see that it is impossible for you to work that out.

several things you have to realize first

- mankind wanted independence from god, that is what occurred in eden. because of this there is a chasm between man and god.

- the entire theme of the bible is god fixing this chasm not only by providing the ransom, but also by giving man time to make a choice.

- god is a god of order. this is why salvation has ALWAYS been provide through certain channels. (noah, moses, lot, jonah, the judges, jesus)

until you understand those things, nothing else i say to you will make sense.

And yet he says the scribes are not the authority. Scribes are the ones who write scriptures.

ummm, no. scribes copied the scriptures, the scriptures themselves were written by kings, princes, farmers, prophets, fishermen, tax collector, cup bearers, etc etc.

the scribes also interpreted scripture.

so no, jesus was not at all discrediting the scriptures by that statement.

He says the people themselves are the ones with the authority. Why? Because the father is within and if you are acting off the will of the father then your instructions and understanding come from within. But yet, you ask me to replace that in exchange with a book?

2 tim 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

2 peter 1:20 First of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
21 because no prophecy ever originated through a human decision. Instead, men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

the scripture are not mans thoughts, they are god's. inspired by him.

now, why its dangerous to listen to the little voices in your head...

1 john 4:1 Dear friends, don't believe all people who say that they have the Spirit. Instead, test them. See whether the spirit they have is from God, because there are many false prophets in the world.

1 tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

And yet, the bible gives in the same manner this world gives in. And yet, Jesus says the father does not give in the same way the world gives. And yet, it says the holy spirit will teach me all things, not the holy scripture. I'm pretty sure Jesus said one must seek the truth, not accept what men give you as the truth.

the bible is not from man, so im not sure what you are getting at

\He does quote scripture and such, and it's not that the bible does not have it's place. It's just that you are not putting it in it's proper place when you elevate it into being the authority to be accepted. You doom yourself to not understanding when you accept.

If I build a house and I put the foundation above the roof, the house will fall. That does not mean that the foundation or the roof itself was bad or false in themselves. But as I did not put them in their proper places, they were unable to fulfill their purpose. If we put the foundation under the roof, the house does not fall. Same parts, just putting things in their proper places.

Yes, I do agree that the bible is in part divinely inspired. That is what drew me to it in the first place. When I read Jesus I recognize the father in him. I do not just accept Jesus because people tell me too, I recognize the father in him, in his understanding and so forth. Even from just a story in a book I see the father. I also see the opposite of that as well in other places. But when you elevate the bible into such an authority, you then replace the real word and real relationship with a book you have accepted.

fitting analogy, except your building a house without measure.

the bible is a standard. it allows us to make sure we are measuring things correctly. could you imagine building a house without a measure? i guarantee 5 mins into building you would make your own because otherwise it would be impossible.

imagine someone saying "we die and we cease to exist" and then another says "we dont die because we are immortal, we just change".

if both claim revelation from god who is correct?

god provided the bible to be that measure. so that we KNOW who is correct and who is lying.

lots of people can be "inspired", but as i said before, not all inspiration is from god.

The thing is the 10 commandments are based on understanding. The other laws are more social type laws. Like speeding in modern times. Like the part about planting crops. That is probably a good idea, but to liken it to a law on the same level as the 10 commandments is just not correct IMO. It is god's laws that are the important ones(the 10 commandments), but I still follow our social laws and such as well. I still stop at stop signs etc.

The 10 commandments are sins against god. The other laws are not sins against god, they are just in most cases bad ideas. It's not a sin against god to smoke cigarettes, but of course it is a bad idea to do such and in the "spirit" of things shouldn't be done. But it is different than the 10 commandments. Do you see what I am getting at here? There is a reason the 10 commandments were carried on. They will never change. The laws of society/men, those do change.

what you are saying is true. the 10 ARE more important, but it still doesnt change the fact that the others are still from god.

No I'm not. He doesn't do what those things say. If it says to kill the man who does something, and that you are to bear witness to it, and he doesn't then he isn't fulfilling that part of the law. He does however fulfill the laws where he doesn't commit the sins to begin with.

but you not actually following the law if you do that.

- first, 2 or more witnesses have to witness the violation.
- has to be brought up to the elders
- there is a trial
- if found guilty, the witnesses throw first and the elders second.

so unless jesus was an older man (he wasnt) or a witness to a violation (the bible simply doesnt say) then jesus wouldnt have killed anyone. im not sure why thats difficult to see. you seem to have this image of jews constantly stoning each other in the streets.

There is a difference between making good judgments for oneself, and judging other people. Either way, Jesus doesn't judge anyone, and instead forgives those who sin rather than judge them as the mosiac law says they are to be.

you are right and wrong. jesus did NOT judge when on earth, but one of his jobs is to judge in the future.

john 5:[22] For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
[30] I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

john 8:[15] Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
[16] And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

acts 10:40] Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
[41] Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
[42] And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

acts 17:[31] Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

rev 20:[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.