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Did Jesus' Teachings Abolish the Old Testament Laws?

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posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 04:36 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
im sorry guys. im REALLY sick and i dont have too much energy so i cant go this fast. im sorry
I second Holy War's sentiments.
Don't worry, no one is going anywhere and take your time.
These arguments are something that goes against the normal paradigm and hard to grasp, really. Like I am saying, it becomes more important as events of history progress. I would not expect anyone to be in a rush to turn around everything they have ever been taught. It is easy for me because I was taught this stuff all along. Even some people in my own church are a little caught up in the ecumenical movement meant to blur the lines between different beliefs. What you end up with, when it goes through, is everyone wondering after the beast. So there is no nice new religion that comes out of ecumenicism because the word is just another that means the same thing as "catholic".




posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
im sorry guys. im REALLY sick and i dont have too much energy so i cant go this fast. im sorry


Yes, I had to take some time off the 'puter myself. The pace of this and another thread I was discussion started reminding me of when I used to discuss at usenet newsgroups back in the nineties. When it was at it's worst I probably wrote a hundred thousand words a day. I didn't eat, sleep or go ouside for long times. It's not healthy. But darn, it's fun too....

I hope you feel better soon and return so I can "kick your donkey" again.

[edit on 17/6/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]



posted on Jun, 19 2009 @ 04:10 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


I hope you don't have "swine flu." It'd be ironic to get a virus from an unclean animal. But seriously, I do hope you feel better. I do consider you a friend though we have many differences. That's what makes us unique.... our differences and opinions. God bless you and take care of yourself Miriam.



posted on Jun, 23 2009 @ 11:25 AM
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In Matthew 23 and Luke 11:37ff Jesus has a flaming speech against the Pharisees and the teachers of law, calling them hipocrites and spawn of vipers. Comparing this passage with how he emphecise the importance of learning, observing and teaching the laws of the Torah in Matthew 5:17ff is a bit confusing to say the least. But knowing that at the time of Jesus, the Mosaic Law had been corrupted and perverted entirely, with all kinds of additions and refurnishments, based uppon rabbinical literature and the post Babylonian traditions which later became Talmud. Stuff like since a ked (goate chelling) should not be cooked in it's mothers milk, Talmudian Jews nowadays can't have meats and diary products at the same shelf in the fridge, and never drink milk to meats. And it's always because of something that happened in the desert.

[edit on 23/6/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]



posted on Jun, 29 2009 @ 01:08 AM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 


What happened? Did everyone get tired of this post or something? I thought we were doing good for a while. Anyways, for those of you reading, PLEASE check out my newest thread. It has not gotten any love or even any views. Check out www.belowtopsecret.com...

It's about Jesus and the ACTUAL year He was crucified, killed and resurrected. Please check it out and contribute. Most of you christians believe in 33AD. This thread opposes a friday death. Read the evidence.... scriptural evidence that proves in fact, two years earlier on the crucifixion. Please contribute to that thread and God bless you all.



posted on Jun, 29 2009 @ 11:31 AM
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I have found proof of what I said before, that the 10 commandments are what Jesus is talking about, not the other laws which he shows are the laws/doctrines of men.



Mark 10

18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.


Plain as day, just as I have been saying. He fulfills the law, brings understanding and shows how to properly follow them.



posted on Jun, 29 2009 @ 11:33 AM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 


No, I was basically told I don't belong in the thread because nobody agrees with me or wants to hear it. So I quit wasting my time. Only posted now because I found proof of what I was saying.



posted on Jun, 29 2009 @ 03:34 PM
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reply to post by badmedia
 

nobody agrees with me
I thought it was because you do not claim to be a Christian. There might be a technical reason for that, but do not let that be something used against you. You are involved in the same characters and writings, so you should be free to comment on them.
I think the reason for the drop off on this thread was that the apparent target of the arguments lost interest in being persuaded. Seems no one else wants to take up the cause for whatever it is, a "spiritual Law" or something.
There is a spiritual Law, it just so happens it was also written down so that there can be no question as to what it really is. We can only keep the Law spiritually, and in our mind, we want to fulfill it but physically we can not. If we have not even the desire to keep it, that is because we have killed the Spirit inside of us because we choose to follow our own desires.
Hypothetically, someone may not be intellectually convinced about what the Law is or that it is still a requirement. The Spirit will guide you into understanding. That is unless your desire is to follow a person's explanation of why it is not necessary. Then we kill the spirit in order to feel comfortable with a teaching of men.
This is destructive to the soul and is our very connection to God that is at stake. Salvation by Faith is a nice theory but it requires faith that only comes from the Spirit. Intellectual ascent to a fact that Jesus died for us is not enough to actually save us. It is true holy faith given by God to believe in His Son that saves us. Killing God's voice to save yourself the trouble of paying attention to what day of the week it is; that is a poor reward for loosing your soul.


[edit on 29-6-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jun, 29 2009 @ 04:27 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


But there are logical and intelligent reasons behind the commandments. They are there for a reason, and reasons which can be understood. Understanding is of the spirit, and if not for the spirit there wouldn't be any understanding at all. To reject understanding over accepting a book as presented in the understanding of other men, that is what kills the spirit.

The commandments are sins against god. Jesus fulfills those laws and shows the proper way to follow them. In doing so, he also shows what is not those laws.


In the verse I quoted above, he quotes of the 10 commandments and not a single one is not of the 10 commandments. And those are exactly the ones he fulfills. They can all also be understood in the 2 laws Jesus breaks them down into, while the other laws can not.

As far as what is for comfort, thinking they just need to "accept" him as the son of god, and then do whatever, automatically be forgiven for those sins and get into heaven no matter what. THAT is what is for the comfort of men. That keeps people from thinking they have to actually keep the commandments and so forth.

In fact, the main reason people disagree with me is because they think actually following the path and example is either too hard or impossible. But yet they say that I am working on the comfort of people? Nonsense. What I say is harder than what the church sells. It is the narrow gate. The church has a wide gate, and even the rich man Jesus turns away fits the bill.

I do agree it takes the spirit to understand. But it seems to me that our understandings should be similar and sharable among those who have gained that understanding. While we may all express those things in our own ways, they should be based on the same understanding correct?

I suppose people can keep using the "you aren't a christian" excuse to ignore what I say all they want. But that's all it is, an excuse. A label doesn't determine who does the will of the father.



posted on Jun, 29 2009 @ 06:19 PM
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reply to post by badmedia
 

I do agree it takes the spirit to understand. But it seems to me that our understandings should be similar and sharable among those who have gained that understanding. While we may all express those things in our own ways, they should be based on the same understanding correct?
If you have a few people sitting around agreeing with each other, or even disagreeing, and someone comes along and reads this exchange, then accepts it, then that nullifies the benefit of agreeing or disagreeing.
It is like saying, if you read this and understand it and accept it, then you must be enlightened. So even without actually being enlightened, you have the same knowledge as people who are. I mean that is what one would be likely to think. I guess this is why Jesus did not sit around explaining how to keep laws, but made difficult statements that required people to work it out in their minds before they could understand.
This whole thread started out in the preexistence of Jesus thread when we started talking about the Sabbath. A new thread got started to keep the discussion on topic. I brought up the idea of there being built into the fourth commandment a reason why to keep it and a way to identify who the real God is. In order to keep the Law, even when it is reduced down to simple concepts, to love God, we need to direct that love to the right god. We are to love a specific god and the Sabbath is the way to bring the worshiper and the One being worshiped together.
Thinking we can send out our devotion to a higher entity, whoever we want to declare as a higher entity, is an idea that is fought against in the whole Bible. What was wrong with the high places around ancient Israel? they were worshiping an ambiguous god, whoever may be the highest god at the current time. Our God is not ambiguous and demands a specific worship to make it clear exactly who that god is we are worshiping. The only way we can do that is through the Sabbath.
What about Jesus, isn't he the name we need to be saved? Jesus is Lord, also of the Sabbath.



[edit on 29-6-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jun, 29 2009 @ 07:53 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
If you have a few people sitting around agreeing with each other, or even disagreeing, and someone comes along and reads this exchange, then accepts it, then that nullifies the benefit of agreeing or disagreeing.

It is like saying, if you read this and understand it and accept it, then you must be enlightened. So even without actually being enlightened, you have the same knowledge as people who are. I mean that is what one would be likely to think. I guess this is why Jesus did not sit around explaining how to keep laws, but made difficult statements that required people to work it out in their minds before they could understand.


Acceptance and understanding are contradictory to each other. If you accept something, then you will not understand it.

If anyone accepts what I say as fact/truth, then they are being foolish. They do not have the same knowledge as me at all, no where near it. They have but a very very small part of the knowledge I have, and even that part is really worthless to that person. Such is like saying someone who can accept and repeat 1+1=2 has the same knowledge as someone who understandings math. Not even close.

Seek and you will find. How does 1 seek? By asking questions. You are not seeking the truth if you just accept when people feed you. If you will eat it, then it will be feed to you. In order to seek, you will have to feed yourself. It's a personal journey and nobody can do it for you.

The best anyone can do is make people question what they think they understand. Because then they will ask questions. And if they are asking questions, then they are seeking understanding. And if you seek, then you will find.

There is only 1 true teacher, and it's not me. It's not the bible either. But I do maintain that once one meets the true teacher and gains that understanding, the bible will pop out at them in a new and very deep way.

As Einstein once said, any fool can know. The point is to understand. Anyone can repeat was is said, but it's pretty useless if you don't understand. You might as well be a billboard.

Read Psalm 82. How long will you accept the wicked, and not understand?



This whole thread started out in the preexistence of Jesus thread when we started talking about the Sabbath. A new thread got started to keep the discussion on topic. I brought up the idea of there being built into the fourth commandment a reason why to keep it and a way to identify who the real God is. In order to keep the Law, even when it is reduced down to simple concepts, to love God, we need to direct that love to the right god. We are to love a specific god and the Sabbath is the way to bring the worshiper and the One being worshiped together.

Thinking we can send out our devotion to a higher entity, whoever we want to declare as a higher entity, is an idea that is fought against in the whole Bible. What was wrong with the high places around ancient Israel? they were worshiping an ambiguous god, whoever may be the highest god at the current time. Our God is not ambiguous and demands a specific worship to make it clear exactly who that god is we are worshiping. The only way we can do that is through the Sabbath.
What about Jesus, isn't he the name we need to be saved? Jesus is Lord, also of the Sabbath.




It is impossible for people to "worship" that which they do not know. Anyone who doesn't know god, by default worships their own idea of god.

That you would think worshiping on a certain day determines the god you are worshiping only goes to prove you do not know the father. If you knew the father, then there would be no question of this.

At best worshiping on a certain day would only be showing other men, and doing things for the eyes of other men is not recommended.

Jesus = the truth, the light and the way. Doing things in his "name" means you are doing things in the "name" of those. This is easy to prove.

If you ask Jesus to kill your brother, will it happen? No, even though you ask for it in "his name". But if you are asking for something in the name of the truth, the light and the way, then it will be done. It's not about the physical name "Jesus".

In fact, that sentence is one of the "keys" of the bible. Where you see the word Jesus, you can replace it with those things and get true meaning. IE: If you seek the truth, then you seek Jesus. Even if you do not search for it by the name of "searching for Jesus".

I don't know "Jesus" in the way Christians talk about. But I do know Jesus in the sense that I know the truth, the way and the light.



posted on Jun, 30 2009 @ 12:34 AM
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reply to post by badmedia
 

At best worshiping on a certain day would only be showing other men, and doing things for the eyes of other men is not recommended.
I do not know where everyone gets the idea that the Sabbath means worshiping on a certain day. There isn't anything in the fourth commandment about a day for worshipping. By resting from your ordinary labor on a day specified by God, you are identifying who you worship. It is not for the purpose of putting on a show. It is not an opportunity to do some good work to add to your justification for being saved.
"Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you."
There is nothing else, besides the Sabbath, in the ten commandments that identifies who God is.



posted on Jun, 30 2009 @ 02:09 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Ok, so what you are saying is that if I work on a certain day then I am not following god? It's not worshiping or taking a day off part I have an issue with. Growing up in the south 99% of the businesses in town were closed on Sunday, outside walmart and big corporations. And even on wednesday they closed at noon. So I'm familiar with all that.

It's the "certain day" part I'm not so thrilled about. I just don't see how god needs that to identify who follows him. I can understand the need for a day off every week, and nothing wrong with taking a bit of time to work on better understanding and such.

I just can't see the father saying - Well, lets see you followed all these commandments, didn't kill, steal and lead and honest and righteous life. But oh no, it seems you observed the Sabbath on Tuesday. Unfortunately, you'll need to go down the hall and too the left to the Tuesday god, you didn't follow me.

There has to be a better reason for it, and "identifying" doesn't make sense. The thing that makes the most sense is that by giving it a certain day of the week, it more insures that the people themselves will actually be given/take the much needed day off. Now that I can understand, as it's not the "certain day" that is the main focus and reason, but by giving it a certain day it is more easy to follow. Gets one into a schedule or routine, so it becomes more natural, plus it ensures 1 day off per 7 days. Where as if you didn't keep it on the same day every week, someone might take 2 days off in a row, then work 12 days in a row.



posted on Jun, 30 2009 @ 05:16 PM
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reply to post by badmedia
 

It's the "certain day" part I'm not so thrilled about. I just don't see how god needs that to identify who follows him.
I just can't see the father saying - Well, lets see you followed all these commandments, didn't kill, steal and lead and honest and righteous life. But oh no, it seems you observed the Sabbath on Tuesday. Unfortunately, you'll need to go down the hall and too the left to the Tuesday god, you didn't follow me.
Look at the story of Cain and Abel. God demanded a sacrifice. Able did his according to the specifications, as instructed. Cain decided that a sacrifice was all he needed to do and made up his own specifics. Abel's sacrifice was found acceptable by God and Cain's was not.
God was clear about the Sabbath and that it had to happen on a specific day.
1 Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Exodus 16:4
Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

"And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, Tomorrow is the rest of the holy Sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake today, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning."




[edit on 30-6-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jun, 30 2009 @ 05:47 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I'm not saying that it's not in the bible etc, what I am asking for is the reason behind it. What is the "spirit" of it? The purpose, the reason.

If I work from Monday-Saturday and take Sunday off, or if I work from Sunday-Friday and take Saturday off, these are of equal actions.

In the Cain and Able example, it's more like Able worked Monday-Saturday and took Sunday off, and Cain took off Monday-Saturday and worked on Sunday. Not of equal actions.

Heck, all one would need to do is screw up the calendar a bit - which there is some evidence of, and who knows what day people are doing what on.

As I said before, I can understand the day off thing and even the proportion of 6 days work, 1 day off. And it just so happened that the day he mentioned was "that" day. I can see the "spirit" of that. It's the part that doing the exact same things, just on different days determines "which" god you worship that I think is a bit wishy washy.



posted on Jul, 1 2009 @ 02:43 AM
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reply to post by badmedia
 

And it just so happened that the day he mentioned was "that" day.
Here's a picture of an old Roman floor mosaic of the seven gods of the week. I thought this might illustrate how people associated the days of the week to specific Gods. It is also a reason to think the calenders were never messed up, because they were not just numbers.



[edit on 1-7-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jul, 1 2009 @ 03:13 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


That picture has sacred geometry in it. Not really related, but it was the first thing I noticed.

So who are the 7 gods? And what does that have to do with the one true father that is within all things?

What you are suggesting is that the father wouldn't know the difference if not for that, and then you would be suggesting that the father isn't all knowing.

What if I was actually wanting to worship the Tuesday god, but got mixed up and did it on Sunday. And the Sunday god ended up being the "right" god. Would I just get lucky and it be ok?

For it to be that reason it means god isn't actually god. Only something who isn't all knowing would need such a sign.

It just doesn't make sense to me in that explanation.



posted on Jul, 1 2009 @ 08:42 AM
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reply to post by badmedia
 


God commanded us to honor His 7th day Sabbath. The spirit in it? Well, the fact that you honor God and do His will by following His fourth commandment shows that you follow it in spirit. Don't make it a burden, make it a blessing, which is what it was intended to be.



posted on Jul, 1 2009 @ 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by jmdewey60
 
That picture has sacred geometry in it. Not really related, but it was the first thing I noticed.
I figured you would, considering you have a six pointed star for an avatar.

So who are the 7 gods? And what does that have to do with the one true father that is within all things?
Traditionally, the days were the planets, including the sun and the moon. Saturn would be Saturday, the seventh, and the sun was the first day.

What you are suggesting is that the father wouldn't know the difference if not for that, and then you would be suggesting that the father isn't all knowing.
In my post, two posts ago, I quote a verse that says, "So you will know. . ." God does not need to be reminded. Just like in the commandment itself, it says, Remember.

What if I was actually wanting to worship the Tuesday god, but got mixed up and did it on Sunday. And the Sunday god ended up being the "right" god. Would I just get lucky and it be ok?
I do not think you could get mixed up. The reason why the day becomes so important, from our point of view, is that a false god demands you to keep Sunday as a sign of its authority over us. It is a usurper god, otherwise known as the antichrist, or ultimately, Satan.

For it to be that reason it means god isn't actually god. Only something who isn't all knowing would need such a sign.
God demands obedience, and this is how we demonstrate that God has a right to demand it, because he created us. The week of creation is in the commandment and is the rational for keeping it.

It just doesn't make sense to me in that explanation.
It is like a thing hidden in plain sight that only people who know God's word will get.

[edit on 1-7-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on Jul, 1 2009 @ 10:38 AM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by badmedia
 


God commanded us to honor His 7th day Sabbath. The spirit in it? Well, the fact that you honor God and do His will by following His fourth commandment shows that you follow it in spirit. Don't make it a burden, make it a blessing, which is what it was intended to be.


It's not the sabbath I take issue with. It's healthy and needed in people, and everyone can use a time for personal study/goals instead of labor. I see the purpose and understanding of that.

It's the importance of people deciding what day exactly that is that I take issue with.

I mean, when it comes to people who go on Saturday or Sunday I think they are the same. Where as the day itself is not so important as much as the actual event itself. I just can't see the father being a stickler for the 2 days etc.

Goes down the list of commandments, and then it turns up the person does almost everything right, but then they kept the sabbath on Sunday, and they should have kept it on Saturday(or vice versa). I just can't see the father turning someone away for such a thing you know? It would seem to me they have kept with the "spirit" of it.

He said it was to determine which god they followed, and that I also take issue with. That doesn't make sense to me for an all knowing father.



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