Did Jesus' Teachings Abolish the Old Testament Laws?

reply to post by Locoman8


So you really believe that if someone did all the other stuff, but didn't keep the sabbath, that the father would turn them away?

3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13Thou shalt not kill.
14Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15Thou shalt not steal.
16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

The above is from Exodus 20 and is the source for what is normally considered the Ten Commandments. If the fist part of the Law is to love God. What does that mean, as how it could relate to the written Law?
1) Don't have another God in opposition to Him.
2) Do not make idols, or worship any idols.
3) Do not use the name of God in a worthless manner.
4) Keep the Sabbath as a thing different from other days.

You find a few negatives, as in things not to do. There is only one positive thing to do to demonstrate your love for God. There are three things to avoid in order to not just run down God, and one where you are actually worshiping Him.

[edit on 16-7-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


Well I guess I'm screwed then, because I refuse to believe that the father is going to be upset if I don't keep the sabbath on a certain day.

All the others I can do, but not that. I will continue to do my best at keeping every day as holy as possible and if that's not good enough, then god doesn't meet my standards, and that is something I refuse to believe in itself and would suggest that someone either misunderstood, or is just plain out lying/made it up.

I have no use for dogma, and the importance put on a certain day of the week is not something I can support in anyway. As odd as it may sound, I'd rather "burn in hell" than participate in such activity, and I follow all the others no problem and think nothing less than following them is ok.

I simply do not believe what you say is true. Not that I am accusing you of being a liar or whatever, I understand you are telling me what you believe is true, just that I disagree and I think we are just going in circles.

It is surprising to me that people do believe those things, it saddens me. Outside it being good for people to take a day off like I said before, I find it to be an insult to the father to make such claims.



[edit on 7/16/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by Locoman8

Originally posted by Locoman
Do you keep the 7th day sabbath? As the law being written in your heart and mind, the Sabbat should come natural, as a way of life. Many christians think the sabbath is a figurative law that is suppose to lead us to rest at least once a week, but the law is specific. He sanctified the 7th day and made it holy. This happened right after creation and was included in the 10 Commandments.

No, I do not worship God on Saturday. The born again Christian church, which introduced me to God worship on a Sunday. I wasn’t even aware until recently about the Sabbath and that it is actually a Saturday.

The way I look at this now is that Jesus is “Lord of the Sabbath” which to me kind of means, he rules over the Sabbath. When we honor the Lord we are in effect honoring the Sabbath regardless of what day it actually is because God is holy regardless of the day. Remember Jesus said he came to (complete) fulfill the Law, which to me means, the Laws have not changed in essence but have kind of been upgraded.


- JC

"Did Jesus' Teachings Abolish the Old Testament Laws?"

My reply to the OP is a simple one: The teachings of Jesus, if there was a Jesus and if these teachings are his, would only abolish the old testament if you felt that it did or were led to believe it did by a group you choose to follow. What is YOUR belief?

Does it make sense that the supposed "Son of God" would come along and tell people not to listen to God any longer? I would think the person to be delusional and to certainly have a "God" complex. I thought Jesus, if he existed, was supposed to be humble?



[edit on 16-7-2009 by Excitable_Boy]

reply to post by badmedia

I will continue to do my best at keeping every day as holy as possible

To be holy, or sanctified, is setting it apart. It would be a contradiction of terms to think they can all be sanctified.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by badmedia

 

I will continue to do my best at keeping every day as holy as possible

To be holy, or sanctified, is setting it apart. It would be a contradiction of terms to think they can all be sanctified.

This is why I don't claim to be christian. It's things like this, among others. None of my understanding and knowledge comes from the bible. I know nobody believes it, but I don't much care.

But I do see my understandings repeated in the bible, which is why I give it some merit to begin with. So when it comes to things I disagree with in the bible, I sort of put it on a shelf as ok, not sure about that.

So I have to have the understanding behind it. I've been given understanding for all the commandments except that one. I just can't follow something I do not understand.

Because I said so, or because the bible said so doesn't equal understanding to me.

Psalm 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Maybe someday that understanding will come to me, but not today.

We've had this discussion before, so we are really just kind of repeating it. I asked a question originally and nobody has answered it.

So, if I keep all the other commandments, does that mean I am going to be turned away if I don't keep that one?

reply to post by Joecroft

The way I look at this now is that Jesus is “Lord of the Sabbath” which to me kind of means, he rules over the Sabbath. . . .the Laws have not changed in essence but have kind of been upgraded.

Jesus is the lord over all things, including the Sabbath. If it were not so, we would not exist.
Jesus taught the spiritual keeping of the Law, which is a higher standard, not lower.

reply to post by badmedia

So, if I keep all the other commandments, does that mean I am going to be turned away if I don't keep that one?

"And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment."
"And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also."
The ability to keep the other commandments comes from following the first one, which is to love God.
"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."
It could be that there are people who do not know about the Sabbath law, or even what day of the week would be considered the seventh. I have to imagine churches do not bring up the topic. They probably hope people go through their lives and never ask the question. Once you know the truth of it, you can not unlearn it, in order to plead ignorance. From then on, it is not ignorance, but willful disobedience to continue on as you had before you became aware. Kind of like Adam and Eve with the tree. It gave them the ability to know evil, but not the ability to avoid doing it. Once they ate, they became chargeable with the offenses that previously were not.
So, being saved is always a necessity. We should be more aware of our sin because we become more aware that God is a holy God, when we study the Sabbath.


[edit on 17-7-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


But I don't know it's true. All I know is some people claim it is true. I personally don't believe it because I know the father, and the sabbath wasn't even remotely part of the understanding I was given, but all the other commandments were.

How could I know it is true if I do not understand it.

reply to post by badmedia
A non-creature. How's that? You have a commandment concerning making things. God did not make anything on the seventh, including the day itself. The system was complete at that point, where another day would come, without having to do any work. So, the Sabbath was not created. God realized after six days of creation, it was time to take a break. What he did do was establish the cycle of seven days in a week by naming seven days, or just numbering them. Six days to work, and one to rest.
God sanctified that day, making it different from the others. There is nowhere in the Bible that says the day was decommissioned. It comes up later as a sign of Israel's relationship with God. Their following His sanctified day shows who it was who sanctified them. Then in Hebrews, the Sabbath is used as an illustration to show how we are sanctified in Christ.
"For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his."

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by Locoman8

 

So you really believe that if someone did all the other stuff, but didn't keep the sabbath, that the father would turn them away?

I believe that all of the Ten Commandments are equal and if you break one, you break them all. Jesus did say:

Matthew 5:17-19


17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


So the outcome is the same if you break one commandment, even if it's a minor offence in YOUR opinion. God put the Ten Commandments in equal stature. One law is not more or less important than the other because breaking one law breaks them all. Examples? Breaking the commandment of coveting also systematically makes you a breaker of the other laws as well. If you covet, you're lusting. Jesus said that lust is equal to adultry. Those are 2 commandments just for breaking one. Also, to do this would also show just how much you respect God's laws, and God, Himself therefore breaking the law of putting no other gods before Him. Idolatry. To covet is to lust and desire, putting the object or person ahead of God making it your own little god. His name is also systematically taken in vain because you reason around it until you convince yourself that what you're doing isn't wrong, when in-fact it is wrong according to the Word of God, Jesus Christ who did say "whoever breaks the least of these commandments will be called least in the kingdom of heaven." You are taking the Lord's name in vain by replacing His DEFINED laws and replaceing them with laws of men.

I guess it doesn't matter to you since you don't consider the bible the written Word of God. You also don't consider yourself a christian yet you are a follower of Christ? It's just like saying you're not Muslim but you're a follower of Mohammad. A serious conversation can't be made with you if you can't consider the scriptures as irrefutable "inspired" words of God as a guide for all followers of Christ. I just showed you how the 10th commandment "do not covet" breaks half the commandments if broken itself. The Sabbath commandment being broken does even more than that.

God sanctified the Sabbath and made it holy. Nowhere in the bible does it say that Sabbath-worship was ever done away with. Jesus called Himself the "Lord of the Sabbath" because He is. He created the Sabbath day as the Word of God on behalf of the Father which makes Him Lord of that day. This doesn't mean He did away with the Sabbath.

reply to post by Locoman8


Thanks, you have proven to me that you do not know the father.

I guess that is all I can say since "A serious conversation can't be made with you" if I don't accept the bible as being the word of god.

Such a disappointment when one says they speak for the father, and the extent of their knowledge comes from a book.

Do you think Jesus needed scripture, or cared what men said of the scripture? And why not? Because he actually knew the father?

Sorry, but I'll stick to the father directly rather than relying on the understanding of men, and that is all that book is. Good day.


[edit on 7/17/2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by badmedia
Do you think Jesus needed scripture, or cared what men said of the scripture? And why not? Because he actually knew the father?

not to burst your bubble, but jesus quoted from scripture quite often. in fact more than i think youd like to acknowledge

Originally posted by miriam0566
not to burst your bubble, but jesus quoted from scripture quite often. in fact more than i think youd like to acknowledge

So do I, that was not the point. The point was the scripture was not the source of his knowledge and understanding, the father was.

It's all about acceptance vs understanding. Christianity in it's current form is the anti-christ religion, it is the mystery religion and it fulfills all the prophecies. And why? Because people accept rather than understand. Because people replace the word of the father with scripture and deny and do not let others do such a thing.

The same people Jesus argued with time and time again were going off the same scripture. The difference was the understanding.

Originally posted by badmedia
It's all about acceptance vs understanding. Christianity in it's current form is the anti-christ religion, it is the mystery religion and it fulfills all the prophecies. And why? Because people accept rather than understand. Because people replace the word of the father with scripture and deny and do not let others do such a thing.

The same people Jesus argued with time and time again were going off the same scripture. The difference was the understanding.

your right, the current start of Christendom is the harlot. but that doesnt mean you throw out the bible. especially since 99% of Christendom doesnt even follow it

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by badmedia
It's all about acceptance vs understanding. Christianity in it's current form is the anti-christ religion, it is the mystery religion and it fulfills all the prophecies. And why? Because people accept rather than understand. Because people replace the word of the father with scripture and deny and do not let others do such a thing.

The same people Jesus argued with time and time again were going off the same scripture. The difference was the understanding.

your right, the current start of Christendom is the harlot. but that doesnt mean you throw out the bible. especially since 99% of Christendom doesnt even follow it

I don't throw out the bible. I just would like to see it in it's proper place. Like Jesus said about the pharisees sitting in the seat of moses. It's not that either are exactly "bad" in themselves, but when they are not put in their proper places, then they are unable to fill their proper function and that makes them bad.

It's like a house. You have a foundation and a roof. If you put the foundation above the roof, then the house will fall down. It's not because either the roof or the foundation are in themselves bad and need to go away, they just need to be put in their proper places so that they can do their purpose. With the foundation on the bottom, it will hold up the roof, and the roof will keep out the rain and elements. It will be a strong house, even though it contains the same parts as the house which fell.

The pharisees were in error because they put themselves into authority above where they were supposed to be. An authority which is false. And that is exactly what people are doing with the bible when they call it the "word of god". It is not the word of god directly. It contains wisdom and understanding, and that is in the word of god. But if that understanding isn't there, then it becomes acceptance and then it acts contradictory to those things, and that is what we see with Christianity and how it becomes the anti-christ religion. Because while it praises Jesus, it turns it's back on the understanding he brings, and his purpose.

The father doesn't speak in the language of men. It's not a written language, and it's not something men can write down. The word of the father is wisdom and understanding, and it comes directly. But people are replacing that with the bible and it's just not right.

It's like the 1+1=2 thing I say all the time. The bible gives you 1+1=2. But the father does not give like that, 1+1=2 is how the world gives. The father will instead just give you understanding of math, and then from that you can see 1+1=2 and so forth. 1+1=2 is not the authority, the understanding of math is.

We on this earth can not give as the father does. I can't just say hey - and then magically you understand all that I wish to give you. Certainly would be alot easier for sure if we could, but no man on this earth can do that. All we can do is express that understanding.

I will defend understanding and wisdom where ever I see and recognize it, but I simply can not accept. It's just not the way of the father I know. When one accepts, they insure themselves of not understanding.

If accepting the scripture were the way, Jesus wouldn't have been needed.

reply to post by badmedia

It's like the 1+1=2 thing I say all the time. The bible gives you 1+1=2. But the father does not give like that, 1+1=2 is how the world gives. The father will instead just give you understanding of math, and then from that you can see 1+1=2 and so forth. 1+1=2 is not the authority, the understanding of math is.

That's funny you say that. You equate the bible with teaching as opposed to full understanding. You do realize that you have to learn the fundamentals of math before you can have a complete understanding. Fundamentals of math come from text books and teachers teaching these fundamentals. The bible teaches us the fundamentals of life and the meaning of life. Jesus, as a human, was the greatest teacher and the witnesses of His life wrote down His biography in what is known as the "Gospels". The Gospels are like the "calculus" of religion while the books of the old testament gave us the "adding", "subtracting", "times tables" and "long division" of religion. The new testament gives us the advanced math of algebra, trig, and calculus. The bible is our text book on life and the proper way of living it. Until you get the fundamentals written in the bible, you will not have understanding.

The problem comes from false teachers and misunderstanding. This is what is wrong with modern christianity. They think 1+1=3 because they were taught wrong by teachers twisting what was really being taught. Remember to "study yourself aproved".

Originally posted by Locoman8
That's funny you say that. You equate the bible with teaching as opposed to full understanding. You do realize that you have to learn the fundamentals of math before you can have a complete understanding. Fundamentals of math come from text books and teachers teaching these fundamentals. The bible teaches us the fundamentals of life and the meaning of life.

NO. The fundamentals of math do not come from a text book at all. AT ALL. The only thing the text books do is show people how to use the symbols of math and such.

Even a baby understands that 2 is more than 1. Go find a 3 year old. Put 3 pieces of candy in 1 hand, and 1 piece of candy in the other hand. That 3 year old will be able to pick the hand with more candy because they already understand math.

The text book teaches them how to do math with the symbols, rather than how they do it already. And in fact, the teacher will use that the child already understands the above example as a way of showing them that the symbols are being used for that.

As such, just like the bible, it shows them an expression of that understanding.

Jesus, as a human, was the greatest teacher and the witnesses of His life wrote down His biography in what is known as the "Gospels". The Gospels are like the "calculus" of religion while the books of the old testament gave us the "adding", "subtracting", "times tables" and "long division" of religion. The new testament gives us the advanced math of algebra, trig, and calculus. The bible is our text book on life and the proper way of living it. Until you get the fundamentals written in the bible, you will not have understanding.

No once again. Jesus says - you already know. He speaks in parables using things people already know and understand to reveal deeper understandings. But you already know and understand.

The problem comes from false teachers and misunderstanding. This is what is wrong with modern christianity. They think 1+1=3 because they were taught wrong by teachers twisting what was really being taught. Remember to "study yourself aproved".

3rd time is a charm eh? No once again. The problem is acceptance vs understanding. People are not taught how to learn, they are taught what to accept and memorize. They read the exact same 1+1=2 you do, but they do not understand because they have accepted over understanding.

This is easy to demonstrate. It is the difference between someone who knows how to add, and someone who just accepts and memorizes 1+1=2. It does not do one any good to memorize 1+1=2, they can't apply it to their lives, it's useless just as the bible is in this way. Only when one understands math does 1+1=2 become useful. And this is also true with the bible and the father.

It does one no good to just "accept the bible". Only the understanding is helpful, and with that understanding one is able to apply things to their life.

As Einstien once said - Any fool can know, the point is to understand. Any fool can repeat E=MC2, but the point is not being able to repeat that, it's actually understanding what is saying. Same thing with the bible.







[edit on 7/17/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia


You are seriously putting more confusion into understanding the way you explain yourself. The bible gives understanding, but only to those with their eyes open to the truth. I can read the bible and where it says "hell" and know that it doesn't mean a pit of fire because I have true understanding. You can give a spiritually blind person the complete truth by telling them that hell means death, grave, prison for demons, or refuse pile and not a pit of fire for people to burn in for eternity, but they will not listen because they don't have understanding of the bible. They have understanding of THEIR religion. The bible is a supernatural book of truth. Unless God speaks to you directly the way He spoke to Moses, Abraham, Isaiah, Daniel or Joseph, you can't have that level of understanding. If what you claim is true, you are a prophet but I see no truth in that by what I read here by you.