Did Jesus' Teachings Abolish the Old Testament Laws?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I figured you would, considering you have a six pointed star for an avatar.

Actually, my avatar is much more than that. What you are seeing is the "snowflake" thing added around what the avatar really is of. Inside that you see the circle? That is called the flower of life, and is the "fabric" of creation. It's a bit squished up in my avatar unfortunetly, but it has 2 circles there, which symbolizes the pattern goes on through history.

Inside that little circle, every geometric shape possible exists within the points it creates. Not only in 2d, but also in 3d, 4d and beyond. Metatrons cube and many more things are in it. All religious symbols are sacred geometry etc.

It's interesting stuff, you should check it out. It's good for understanding things about "metaphysics".

Traditionally, the days were the planets, including the sun and the moon. Saturn would be Saturday, the seventh, and the sun was the first day.

But isn't that pagan stuff? And how does any of those specific days define the father? The closest I could say would be the sun, as it gives off light. But then the other side of the argument is that it's the first day of the week, not the 7th and you get into the argument of sun worship.

In my post, two posts ago, I quote a verse that says, "So you will know. . ." God does not need to be reminded. Just like in the commandment itself, it says, Remember.

Ok, but I know who I follow because the father is within me. A day of the week doesn't tell me that, and I wouldn't know one way or another of Saturday or Sunday. But I do know the father within me, so that is what I go by.

I do not think you could get mixed up. The reason why the day becomes so important, from our point of view, is that a false god demands you to keep Sunday as a sign of its authority over us. It is a usurper god, otherwise known as the antichrist, or ultimately, Satan.

I've read both sides of the argument. The other side will bring up other reasons.

If 2 people approached me, it would not be the day they think to keep the sabbath that decides my opinion. I don't think either of them would be wrong for that reason. If the 2 people were alike in all other ways and correct, then I would just think they were doing the best they could and differ a bit.

God demands obedience, and this is how we demonstrate that God has a right to demand it, because he created us. The week of creation is in the commandment and is the rational for keeping it.

This is not my relationship with the father. I have never been told to do anything exactly in such a manner. Instead I have been shown why I need to do those things and the understanding behind it. Then it's not about me being "obedient" in such a way, it's about me actually wanting and choosing to them because I know they are right.

As there is an understanding and reason to those things, then to not do those things would carrying the bad side of it. So in that way I get the obedience part and what you mean. I just don't know the father as being so "Because I said so!".

When I tried to give my will to the father, it was not taking. Instead I was just given more understanding so that I could do his will on my own. It's not slavery and bondage, but freedom.

It is like a thing hidden in plain sight that only people who know God's word will get.

Of all you have said, I give this the most validity, as I do know that experience in itself. Not with this particular topic, but in everything else. In this topic it's been as I mentioned before as what I see the reason and purpose behind it.

And I even give a bit more leaning towards Saturday, as it is the last day of the week, and I know the RCC has manipulated many things, and most churches while not the RCC are mostly based on it. If I absolutely had to pick between the 2 days, I would probably go to Saturday, but I do not honestly know for sure.

I would now be getting into the understanding of men, and I have to be careful of deciding not based on the understanding the father has given me. You would really have to force me to do such a thing as above, and even then I don't know if I can do it. It just seems petty to me.

reply to post by badmedia

I would now be getting into the understanding of men, and I have to be careful of deciding not based on the understanding the father has given me. You would really have to force me to do such a thing as above, and even then I don't know if I can do it. It just seems petty to me.

The more Sunday is forced, the more you should know it is wrong.

I think the spiritual understanding of the Sabbath could be equality as being just. There is justice in that you take the rest day, and then your sons and daughters take it and your servants take it. The person who was traveling and looking for work, that you took in, he gets the rest day. God started the rest day by resting himself. We are all the same on one day.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Well like I said, I will have to have understanding before I would choose a certain day as being all that important. I can understand the need for time off, and a time of self improvement and goals etc. But the specific day thing is not something I would view as important. The validations I have seen is in regard and do to what other people worship, and my "faith" and "understandings" are in no way based on the actions of others.

I don't see how we can come to agreement on this.

reply to post by badmedia
God made man in his own image. He then gave him an example of observing the Sabbath. So you are following God, and not men. By imitating God, we become more like Him. At least that was the original intent, before man fell. Going back to the practice of Eden may be a way of getting in touch with what should have been normal for us.

This does not really answer why you should keep a specific day, and not just any one you choose. My answer is the same thing I already said, which is, when a human institution tells you that you must keep the day they established, that should be the sign not to. The problem with that argument is that we seem to be in a lull of Sunday enforcement so it does not appear to be a looming threat. It is not because it is not there, it is that you are not looking for it. It is the number one thing on the new Pope's agenda, as stated in his speeches and writings. Oh, so what? that's just the pope. Well there is an organization in America that has been around for over a hundred years for the purpose of having Sunday enforced and they are saying that they are going to see their hopes fulfilled real soon. You never know, because no one has read the "cap and trade" bill, there may be a Sunday rule in it.


[edit on 3-7-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by badmedia


Man's reasoning around the 4th commandment should be avoided. Do what God said. Simple as that. Honor Him and keep His Sabbath day holy and true. It's not rocket science. It's not hard to do. Our society makes us think it's wrong to do. It's as simple as calling the 4th commandment the "test commandment" because it seems pointless to specify the day to worship God, but God set it up for man and expects us to follow His rules. That's all I need to know in order to follow this great rule.

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by badmedia

 

Man's reasoning around the 4th commandment should be avoided. Do what God said. Simple as that. Honor Him and keep His Sabbath day holy and true. It's not rocket science. It's not hard to do. Our society makes us think it's wrong to do. It's as simple as calling the 4th commandment the "test commandment" because it seems pointless to specify the day to worship God, but God set it up for man and expects us to follow His rules. That's all I need to know in order to follow this great rule.

But the father didn't tell me to do that. Only the bible tells me to do that. If it was that important, I would have expected the father would have given me the understanding behind it, as is the case in other things.

Not a matter of difficulty, it's just a matter of understanding behind it.

Proverbs 9

9Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.


Psalm 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

[edit on 7/8/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia


So the bible saying God's words has no weight for you? You just used scripture for your point. I used scripture for my point. The 7th day sabbath was God's first verbal commandment when He sanctified it on the 7th day of creation.

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by badmedia

 

So the bible saying God's words has no weight for you? You just used scripture for your point. I used scripture for my point. The 7th day sabbath was God's first verbal commandment when He sanctified it on the 7th day of creation.

No, the bible is not any kind of authority for me.

People putting the scripture in such a place is no different than the pharisees sitting in the seat of Moses. It's not in it's proper place.

If the bible didn't say what it does in places, then I wouldn't quote it at all. I only quote it when I agree with what it says.

I actually know the father, and that is my authority. In fact, the father never even told me to pick up a bible or mentioned Jesus directly. Instead, he gave me understanding, and when I see that understanding in the bible, I quote it.

I was astonished when I found the bible saying the things I learned. But it is the understandings themselves that are what I see, not the physical words. I don't like Jesus because some man told me the bible is the word of god and such. I like Jesus because I understand him. When I read the words of Jesus, I see the father and the understanding of the father. That is why I like and quote Jesus.

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

scribes = those who write scripture, and Jesus is saying the scripture is not the authority. The father was his authority, and he did what he did due to the understanding of the father.

I don't BS about these things. I understand people don't believe I know the father, and I don't expect them to believe it either. We deny in others what we ourselves lack - I'm guility of it as well, it's hard not to do. I get it, I understand.

But I honestly don't get or know why people talk of a personal relationship with the father and such, and then replace it with a book. As if a personal relationship with god means he is going to repeat the bible to you or something. Ummm, no. He gives understanding, and by that understanding you will walk the path. So I ask, where is the understanding in this, and all I get in return is a "because I said so", and that is not the father I know.

The main reason I quote the bible is for the benefit of others. It's not the easiest thing in the world to express understandings in a way that people can understand. The bible is most useful for finding good words/ways to express those understandings, but it is not the authority because it is not the source of that understanding.




[edit on 7/9/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia

If the bible didn't say what it does in places, then I wouldn't quote it at all. I only quote it when I agree with what it says.

Then you are inventing your own man made standards, anybody can do that.

The bible isn't some giant free buffet or smorgasbord that we can pick and choose what we like and don't like.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Once again, hell will come before Christians actually allow a personal relationship with the father. What you prove to me is that you do not know the father, and so you replace that with the bible.

You assume that I do not know the father, and so you feel that what I say must be my own understanding. But I do know the father, and that is where I get my understanding.

Besides, you pick and choose what you want to follow. You pick and choose how you understand the verses and so forth. Case in point is the end of Matthew 7 which I quoted before, where Jesus says the exact same thing regarding scripture.

Matthew 7

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Or how about the part where it says the father will fill the treasures of those who find and love him with wisdom and understanding? Why do you deny this of me?

Proverbs 8

1Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

2She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

3She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

4Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.

5O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

6Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

7For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

11For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

12I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

13The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

14Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

15By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

16By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

18Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

19My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

20I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

21That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

But I am supposed to turn all this down, in favor of a book written by the scribes? I think not. The bible has merely become a replacement for the father, of which the understanding of men has been placed on top and accepted by the people.

Psalm 82

2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

Sorry, but I go in the way of understanding.

1Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

2She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.

3She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city,

4Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,

5Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled.

6Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

7He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.

8Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

9Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

2 things stand at the top of the path and the entrance of the holy. Wisdom and understanding. Not the bible.







[edit on 7/9/2009 by badmedia]

Apologies if this has been mentioned already…

Mathew 12:1,8

1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath." 3He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6I tell you that one[a] greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

Christians that I have spoken to say, that the laws of the ten commandments that were written in stone are now written on our hearts because of Jesus teachings and the bringing of the Holy spirit.

As for the Sabbath day being sacred, it would seem to me from the above verse, that Jesus is saying that the priests are innocent for breaking the Sabbath. My intepretation of the above verse, is that priests at that time were holy men, so I guess when we receive the Holy spirit, we become holy and therefore do not need to honor the Sabbath.


- JC


[edit on 10-7-2009 by Joecroft]

reply to post by Joecroft


Jesus was referring to the laws that the scribes and pharisees added to the Sabbath laws. If the priests of David's time were to be living in the time of Jesus, the Sabbath would be broken according to the additional laws of men. Jesus used examples like this to show the jews how to PROPERLY follow the sabbath. Picking grain to eat wasn't normal 9 to 5 work. It was something they did to eat that day. Jews weren't allowing people to lift up a finger for more than a few minutes.

Another example is that of Jesus and His disciples not washing their hands before eating. It was a tradition of the elders, not God. Jesus came to give true meaning and understanding to the Laws of God. Not to get rid of them.

reply to post by badmedia


Well at least your willing to quote scripture showing that you actually know what the bible says, which is better than some people that post within the Two religious forums we have in BTS and ATS.

And yes Jesus ended the sabbath, the grain threshing and eating on the sabbath was just the issue he needed to make his point, that it was coming to an end, he ended it.

This scripture clearly show the mosaic law was designed by God to last and lead up until Jesus came the earth, multiple bibles for maximum understanding.

Galatians Chapter 3 verses 23-25

23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

23 Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed. 24 Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. 25 And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.

23 However, before the faith arrived, we were being guarded under law, being delivered up together into custody, looking to the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. 25 But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor.

This scripture really explains it best, it is very clear and concise. We are no longer under "the law".

[edit on 10-7-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

reply to post by Joecroft

Christians that I have spoken to say, that the laws of the ten commandments that were written in stone are now written on our hearts because of Jesus teachings and the bringing of the Holy spirit.

As for the Sabbath day being sacred, it would seem to me from the above verse, that Jesus is saying that the priests are innocent for breaking the Sabbath. My intepretation of the above verse, is that priests at that time were holy men, so I guess when we receive the Holy spirit, we become holy and therefore do not need to honor the Sabbath.

You can't very well have the Law written in your heart if you leave ones off you do not find convenient.
Jesus was on a mission. Therefore he had an allowance to do things that were expedient, that would not have been done if he had not had God's work to do.
The priests had a particular work of God to do and that was allowed on the Sabbath. David claimed to have been on an assignment from the King so he and his men were allowed to eat of the bread that was reserved for the priests. Unless we are on a special mission from God, we are to keep the Sabbath normally.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

Matthew 13

19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Jesus mentions that too about those who don't understand.

I think as far as Jesus getting rid of the laws, I don't exactly agree with that in the way you put it. It's somewhat hard to say because it could just be your choice of words with the same understanding.

But I would say he ended the dogmatic and authoritative way of them, in exchange for understanding. Authorities = acceptance, Jesus = understanding. This is the main reason I reject the writings of Paul in general. Paul = authority/acceptance and is counter productive to the understanding of Jesus. Not everything he says is bad etc, but in general I don't think he understood.

Matthew 13

10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Because the people in general accepted the authorities, and did not understand that is the reason the pharisees and such were able to add other laws/traditions among men. Men just followed them and accepted them.

Jesus is a threat to them because he gives them understanding. He speaks in parables to give them understanding. Once those people gain understanding, then they will be able to tell god's laws and the laws of men apart.

So I do not think Jesus ends the law. But instead ends the authoritive way of "do this", in exchange for understanding. When as I pointed out in the previous verses, knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Psalm 111

10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

So, Jesus doesn't end the laws. He fulfills them and brings understanding of what is god's law and what is not. So that by that understanding, people can keep the commandments of the father.

As for the Sabbath I am honestly unsure. As I said it was never something shown to me as being important. It could be that I do it most everyday, because it's "keep the sabbath holy". So if you keep every day holy, then you would by default being doing that. That is how I have seen it anyway.

In the Matthew 12 verse, we see Jesus speaking of him doing good things and such, and that is not against keeping the sabbath holy, it's actually keeping it holy. He seems to make the point of "how are these things not holy?".

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

And yes Jesus ended the sabbath, the grain threshing and eating on the sabbath was just the issue he needed to make his point, that it was coming to an end, he ended it.

Jesus never ended the Law. He was giving an example of how the Sabbath was not meant to make people miserable.

This scripture clearly show the mosaic law was designed by God to last and lead up until Jesus came the earth, multiple bibles for maximum understanding.

The purpose of the Law as explained by Paul was for pointing out our sinfulness and need for forgiveness, and was not able to free us from sin by keeping it.

This scripture really explains it best, it is very clear and concise. We are no longer under "the law".

We are under grace as a means for being forgiven and no keeping of the Law supersedes the primacy of faith.

reply to post by Locoman8

Originally posted by Locoman8
Jesus was referring to the laws that the scribes and pharisees added to the Sabbath laws.

This is an interesting view point, but how do we really know if Jesus was saying you are free from the additional laws added by the Pharisees to the Sabbath or if he is saying you are free from the Sabbath altogether. It just doesn’t seem clear cut to me and I am having a hard time backing up iether viewpiont with scripture.

One thing is definitely clear to me, in that Jesus is showing that there can be exceptions to sticking to the Sabbath rules i.e. doing good things on the Sabbath is not a sin.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Originally posted by jmdewey60
You can't very well have the Law written in your heart if you leave ones off you do not find convenient.

I guess my point is, when the law was written in stone, there was no room for maneuver or forgiveness for breaking it. Where as now, we are not under the written law because Jesus through the holy spirit, has become the law. With the law written on our hearts there is more flexibility for understanding and forgiveness.


- JC

edit - spelling

[edit on 10-7-2009 by Joecroft]

reply to post by Joecroft

I guess my point is, when the law was written in stone, there was no room for maneuver or forgiveness for breaking it. Where as now, we are not under the written law because Jesus through the holy spirit, has become the law. With the law written on our hearts there is more flexibility for understanding and forgiveness.

Having the Law written on your heart should mean that you have the internal desire to keep it. It is a completely opposite view to make it mean the Law becomes personalized to where you can pick and choose which laws to follow since you now "own" them.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Having the Law written on your heart should mean that you have the internal desire to keep it.

I agree, that’s exactly what it should mean and it does for me.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
It is a completely opposite view to make it mean the Law becomes personalized to where you can pick and choose which laws to follow since you now "own" them.

Two pionts:

Firstly, the Law, because it is now written on our hearts, has become personal, to each individual on earth.

Secondly, it is not personal in the sense that WE pick and choose the Laws ourselves and personalize them as we see fit, because we don’t. It is still Gods power, through the spirit that directs us, to do what is right or convicts us, of what is wrong. We don’t “own” the Law, God “owns” the Law.



- JC

reply to post by Joecroft


Do you keep the 7th day sabbath? As the law being written in your heart and mind, the Sabbat should come natural, as a way of life. Many christians think the sabbath is a figurative law that is suppose to lead us to rest at least once a week, but the law is specific. He sanctified the 7th day and made it holy. This happened right after creation and was included in the 10 Commandments.