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reply posted on 9-5-2009 @ 10:36 PM by LoneGunMan
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Originally posted by TrueAmerican
reply to post by LoneGunMan
Thanks for replies folks. So Lone, is the above poster correct in saying that the FLIR measures skin temperature, and not the fire temperature? That
doesn't seem right to me. The camera shots are of the opening where the fire was raging. I just want to clear that up please.
It measures heat. If there are exposures (openings in the structure) it will measure the heat of the fire. The fire is not as hot as the gases that
build up above the fire either.
When we enter a structure fire we get this rolling heated gases above our heads, its one of the reasons for the cloth that drapes below the back of
our helmets. It protects us from steam burns. What happens is when you are inside fighting the ceiling may look like its on fire but its actually
super-heated gas and not the structure. You concentrate you lines on the fire only. You sometimes panic though because its rolling and raging just
over your head and you adrenaline may over-ride your training and makes you redirect your stream tot he gases above your head. Then the water turns to
steam and rolls down on the back of you and your neck (the reason for the fire proof cloth draped below your lid) when that happens you more than
likely just lost the building. It disrupts the thermal layers and what was a few hundred degrees at the floor suddenly goes over a thousand and then
you have to get out.
You cant control a fire from the outside, it has to be fought at the source. Its all rather complex and is why we have to train so much.
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reply posted on 9-5-2009 @ 11:09 PM by Taxi-Driver
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Originally posted by googolplex
Originally posted by dubiousone
reply to post by bluewaterservant
The pics of the angle cut beams have always troubled me. Has there been any attempt by "officialdom" to explain how those angle cuts on these main
structural supporting beams came into existence? If so, is it a credible explanation?
I vaguely recall an ATS post in which someone opined that the angle cust were made as part of the after-the-collapse cleanup effort. But I believe
that comment was made by a would-be debunker rather than an official source.
It make no sense to cut steel on angle if you were just cutting it up, a angle would be for demo when you want one piece to slide past other
The first thing that should run through your mind when you see the "Beam pics" is : When exactly were these pictures taken?
The second should be: Were there any more pics taken with these?
Is this evidence of demolition to you?
If this picture would have been taken just after the towers fell....Possibly.
BUT
It was a cherry-picked photo out of a set.. which included THIS pic as well.
Iron workers cutting jutting beams at an angle...leaving slag on the cut.
These clean-up operations were being performed from October through December 2001.
Close up.
Now, you might want to ask yourself. Why did the 9/11 dood's not say anything about the other pictures? I mean, why not be up front with all the
information, if it is indeed "truth" we are seeking?
The more you research, the more you will realize this pattern of deception is prevailant on just about every 9/11 issue.
Simply put, it is a cheap carney shell game, where the goal is to manipulate your perception for their monitary or political goals.
Some lack the critical thinking skills to properly identify credible sources. Some just haven't the mental capacity to understand the intricacies of
rhetoric and propaganda. No matter where that rhetoric and propaganda is comming from. They just latch on to what hits'em first..or hardest.
It is like that Nigerian prince spam e-mail. Just send him some money and you shall be rewarded 10 fold.
It sounds stupid, but the reason those e-mails get sent out is because there are a percentage of people who fall for the scam.
When they go "cyber" anything "seems" believable. Or MORE believable.
If the same guy came-up to you on the street and layed out the Nigerian Prince scam, you would be bolting away faster a East German speed walker.
It's 8 years later, there is no proof of "Inside Jobby Jobs, " Bush is out of office... There is not going to be a new investigation. What is the
point, except to waste time, or conduct an intratubes flame warfare.
Really?... Really? that's it?
[edit on 9-5-2009 by Taxi-Driver]
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reply posted on 9-5-2009 @ 11:20 PM by dubiousone
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reply to post by Taxi-Driver
Thanks for the additonal photos. But they don't lay the issue to rest. And they don 't answer the question whether the angle cut beam shown in the
first and similar photos were part of the clean-up or part of a planned demolition of the towers. I agree, it would be helpful to know at which stage
after the towers' destruction the photos were taken and by whom.
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reply posted on 9-5-2009 @ 11:26 PM by quantumtorpedo
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There are many red-flags that come up with me about the whole 9-11 event, but none more so than the fact that building 7 (WTC #7) went down WITHOUT
EVER BEING TOUCHED. There was no plane that hit it, nor not that much debris either, yet it went down- demolition style.
I have seen mountains of evidence- some circumstantial I would admit, but the fact that this building went down in the first place should make
everyone who doubts this conspiracy theory shudder in their tracks.
With everything else we have both seen and heard on this event, there can be no doubt that this was an inside job, like many other national events
that we have seen in our country's history- both Kennedy assassinations, UFOs, and so forth as the other ones that creates controversy because of
the lies that we are told daily.
What I have found very compelling about this WTC #7 building going down, is that it was the place which housed important documents and files relating
to Enron and the CIA, from what I have seen from 9-11 documentaries.
That is fascinating and quite telling, and it also raises a lot of doubt in my mind.
That sure smells funny, and raises even more doubt and questions as to the belief that this was not just some lunatic Saudi Muslim terrorists who did
this all on their own.
They had help, and that help came from our own government, in my opinion.
The evidence is quite clear for anyone to see.
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reply posted on 9-5-2009 @ 11:40 PM by Taxi-Driver
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Originally posted by dubiousone
reply to post by Taxi-Driver
Thanks for the additonal photos. But they don't lay the issue to rest. And they don 't answer the question whether the angle cut beam shown in the
first and similar photos were part of the clean-up or part of a planned demolition of the towers. I agree, it would be helpful to know at which stage
after the towers' destruction the photos were taken and by whom.
And perhaps the bigger point: Whouldn't it be helpful to see a more logical and sensible explaination for the "beam picture" when the information
was being presented?
Why wasn't that other explaination presented at all?
Is that Ok with you?
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reply posted on 9-5-2009 @ 11:51 PM by googolplex
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reply to post by Taxi-Driver
Yea all those cuts look like from the workers cleaning up, you can see all the marks made in the steel by the torch, and run off.
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reply posted on 9-5-2009 @ 11:58 PM by Sherlock2009
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Truely, the sadest part of all this is that it may never come to light that it was all a lie.
The planes were the red hering for for demolishion of buildings, 1,2 & 7.
There were a lot of motives, a lot of money to be made and a lot of gold to go missing.
The facts can not be denied.
BUT....We all know JFK was not shot by Oswell and what was the end result there. "NOTHING". Its just history now
It's just so sad!
Your government is screwing you!
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reply posted on 9-5-2009 @ 11:58 PM by Taxi-Driver
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Originally posted by quantumtorpedo
There are many red-flags that come up with me about the whole 9-11 event, but none more so than the fact that building 7 (WTC #7) went down WITHOUT
EVER BEING TOUCHED.
Really?...REALLY?
Why? Why would 7 World Trade even need to be demo'ed..or whatever.
To shread papers..by scattering them about Manhatten?
The whole premise is dumb: ~ Lets needlesly risk our whole operation being found out while spending millions to blow up a building that no one really
knows/cares about. ! ~
That's the ticket... with out this key event, no one will be on board for the NWO agenda. pffft.
It fell because of its design, its impact damage, and its uncontrolled fires.
FDNY knew it was compromised and created a collapse zone around the building 4 hours before it finally fell.
To say WTC 7 fell due to demolition is saying the FDNY was involved with the mass murder of their fallen brothers.. There is no other way for the WTC
7 to be a demolition event and the FDNY not to be a part of it. And for you to accuse the men who lost so much that day to be an intregal part of this
snake-oil conspiracy makes me sad...real sad.
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reply posted on 10-5-2009 @ 12:00 AM by TrueAmerican
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reply to post by LoneGunMan
Ok, thanks man. I appreciate your contributions to the thread, as it really helps to have the input from a real firefighter using the FLIR technology
with which these photos were taken.
I will say then to pteridine in this post that I am sorry, I believe you are incorrect with your statement in your post here that:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Originally posted by pteridine
The IR camera is measuring skin temperature, not fire temperature in the building.
I would think if that was the case the photo would have shown a rough figure of a human being, and not the large image of the fire raging in the hole
as it is seen in the video and in the still pictures here:
www.irinfo.org...
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reply posted on 10-5-2009 @ 12:03 AM by Swampfox46_1999
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reply to post by googolplex
From the size of some of the beams left, you most definitely would want to angle the steel for it to fall exactly where you want it to.
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reply posted on 10-5-2009 @ 12:13 AM by Sherlock2009
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Originally posted by Taxi-Driver
Originally posted by quantumtorpedo
There are many red-flags that come up with me about the whole 9-11 event, but none more so than the fact that building 7 (WTC #7) went down WITHOUT
EVER BEING TOUCHED.
Really?...REALLY?
Why? Why would 7 World Trade even need to be demo'ed..or whatever.
To shread papers..by scattering them about Manhatten?
The whole premise is dumb: ~ Lets needlesly risk our whole operation being found out while spending millions to blow up a building that no one really
knows/cares about. ! ~
That's the ticket... with out this key event, no one will be on board for the NWO agenda. pffft.
It fell because of its design, its impact damage, and its uncontrolled fires.
FDNY knew it was compromised and created a collapse zone around the building 4 hours before it finally fell.
To say WTC 7 fell due to demolition is saying the FDNY was involved with the mass murder of their fallen brothers.. There is no other way for the WTC
7 to be a demolition event and the FDNY not to be a part of it. And for you to accuse the men who lost so much that day to be an intregal part of this
snake-oil conspiracy makes me sad...real sad.
Unbelievable!!!!
You swallowed it hook, line and sinker.
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reply posted on 10-5-2009 @ 12:14 AM by BlasteR
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reply to post by LoneGunMan
Good post. I also believe that the WTC buildings were designed and constructed to withstand an impact from a 707. They were also designed and
constructed to handle hurricane-force winds around 140 mph (more?).
Some interesting information I thought I would add on to your post..
www.prisonplanet.com...
�A previous analysis [by WTC building designers], carried out early in 1964, calculated that the towers would handle the impact of a 707
traveling at 600 mph without collapsing�[2]
(Between Early 1984 and October 1985):
�However, O�Sullivan consults �one of the trade center�s original structural engineers, Les Robertson, on whether the towers would collapse
because of a bomb or a collision with a slow-moving airplane.� He is told there is �little likelihood of a collapse no matter how the building was
attacked.��[3]
1993
�[Building designer] John Skilling recounts his people having carried out an analysis which found the twin towers could withstand the impact of a
Boeing 707. Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There
would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed.� But, he says, �The building structure would still be there.�[4]
�The analysis Skilling is referring to is likely one done in early 1964, during the design phase of the towers. A three-page white paper, dated
February 3, 1964, described its findings: �The buildings have been investigated and found to be safe in an assumed collision with a large jet
airliner (Boeing 707�DC 8) traveling at 600 miles per hour. Analysis indicates that such collision would result in only local damage which could not
cause collapse or substantial damage to the building and would not endanger the lives and safety of occupants not in the immediate area of impact.�
However, besides this paper, no documents are known detailing how this analysis was made.�[5]
2001
�Leslie Robertson, one of the two original structural engineers for the World Trade Center, is asked at a conference in Frankfurt, Germany what he
had done to protect the twin towers from terrorist attacks. He replies, �I designed it for a 707 to smash into it,� though does not elaborate
further.�[6]
[Leslie Robertson:] �The twin towers were in fact the first structures outside the military and nuclear industries designed to resist the impact of
a jet airplane.�[7]
[Frank A. Demartini:] �The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it. That was the largest plane at the time. I believe that
the building probably could sustain multiple impacts of jetliners because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door -- this
intense grid -- and the jet plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. It really does nothing to the screen netting.� Frank A.
Demartini, on-site construction manager for the World Trade Center, spoke of the resilience of the towers in an interview recorded on January 25,
2001.[8]
Sept 3-7, 2001�just before 9/11
�The Boeing 707 was the largest in use when the towers were designed. [Leslie] Robertson conducted a study in late 1964, to calculate the effect of
a 707 weighing 263,000 pounds and traveling at 180 mph crashing into one of the towers. [Robertson] concluded that the tower would remain standing.
However, no official report of his study has ever surfaced publicly.�[9]
After 9/11
�The engineer who said after the 1993 bombing that the towers could withstand a Boeing 707, Leslie Robertson, was not available for comment
yesterday, a partner at his Manhattan firm said. �We're going to hold off on speaking to the media,� said the partner, Rick Zottola, at Leslie E.
Robertson Associates. �We'd like to reserve our first comments to our national security systems, F.B.I. and so on.��[10]
�The building owners, designers and insurers, prevented independent researchers from gaining access�and delayed the BPAT team in gaining
access�to pertinent building documents largely because of liability concerns.�[11]
�[The] National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), in 2005 state that it has been �unable to locate any evidence to indicate
consideration of the extent of impact-induced structural damage or the size of a fire that could be created by thousands of gallons of jet
fuel.��[12]
�In 2002, Leslie Robertson wrote: �To the best of our knowledge, little was known about the effects of a fire from such an aircraft, and no
designs were prepared for that circumstance.�[13]
�[Leslie Robertson:] I support the general conclusions of the NIST report� The [WTC] was designed for the impact of a low flying slow flying
Boeing 707. We envisioned it [to be like] the aircraft that struck the Empire State building [during] WW II. It was not designed for a high speed
impact from the jets that actually hit it� Yes there was a red hot metal seen [in the WTC rubble] by engineers. Molten�Molten means
flowing�I�ve never run across anyone who has said that they had in fact seen molten metal, or by the way if they had seen it, if they had
performed some kind of an analysis to determine what that metal was.� Steven Jones in discussion With Leslie Robertson [MP3] by KGNU Radio, Denver,
CO, Oct 26, 2006
Analysis:
Robertson has made some glaring contradictions in his statements.
� Robertson claims that the building was designed to only survive plane crashes at speeds of 180 mph. Interestingly he made this claim only a few
days before 9/11.[14] A quote by Building Designer Skilling indicates that �A previous analysis, carried out early in 1964, calculated that the
towers would handle the impact of a 707 traveling at 600 mph without collapsing�.[15] Robertson must resolve this apparent contradiction. It is a
very suspicious statement given the fact that it would be reasonable to consider the maximum speed of a plane flying into the Twin Towers. Is it
possible that Robertson was asked to leak this �deliberately misleading information� just before 9/11? However, this is just speculation. Also
suspicious is the fact that he said in 1984-5 that there was �little likelihood of a collapse no matter how the building was attacked.�[16]
� Robertson says that the building was not designed to survive jet fuel fires: �To the best of our knowledge, little was known about the effects
of a fire�. This claim is suspicious for two reasons: why would they design the towers to survive plane crashes without considering the jet fuel?
And more importantly, John Skilling claimed in 1993 that they did consider the jet fuel when they designed the buildings.[17] Given this fact, which
statement is more likely to be correct about jet fuel fires being considered?
� NIST is also contradicted when they claim that there was no �evidence to indicate consideration of� thousands of gallons of jet fuel�. This
statement is clearly false. See John Skilling�s statement: �Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from
the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire� The building structure would still be there.�[18]
� In an interview with Steven Jones, Robertson claims that he had �never run across anyone who has said that they had in fact seen molten
metal.� This statement is extremely suspicious considering the fact that Robertson himself claimed to have seen it in a published news report! This
contradicts his own statement about seeing molten metal: �Leslie Robertson, the structural engineer responsible for the design of the WTC, describes
fires still burning and molten steel still running 21 days after the attacks.�[19]. As well, substantial eye-witness testimony supports observations
of Molten Steel.[20]
� Robertson is also incorrect when he says that �if they had seen [Molten Steel, they had not] performed some kind of an analysis to determine
what that metal was. This statement is false. FEMA analyzed samples of the molten steel.[21] However, NIST did not even mention the molten steel and
called it �irrelevant to [their] investigation.�[22] This could have simply been a mistake by Robertson.
Is Robertson being pressured to lie and make false statements? Was he asked to leak a false statement just before 9/11 about the speed of the planes
having an impact on their destruction? Are these contradictions by accident or mistake?
A news report stated that he wanted to give his opinion to the FBI before making his comments public. This in itself is not overly suspicious�but
his contradictions are. No clear answers to these and similar questions can be obtained through speculation alone�Leslie Robertson must account for
these himself. If another 9/11 investigation is obtained, it is clear that Leslie Robertson will have to answer these and other relevant questions.
-ChriS
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reply posted on 10-5-2009 @ 12:37 AM by Taxi-Driver
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Originally posted by Sherlock2009
Unbelievable!!!!
You swallowed it hook, line and sinker.
Au contraire.
The only thing I dislike more than Government propaganda, is subversive, sophmoric propaganda.
Neither sway my fact checking.
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reply posted on 10-5-2009 @ 01:05 AM by googolplex
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To me I don't know what will come of all of this with out complete diclosure, the answers will never come. Bulding 7 is complete joke, could never
happen.
Not changing subject but to me it was so convenient for tha area of the the Pentego that was attacked, to be empty and under construction.
Question where were the contruction workers were they given the day off, most crews start at 7:00 no later than 8:00.
Seems would have targeted location with most Big shots, not empty area.
[edit on 10-5-2009 by googolplex]
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reply posted on 10-5-2009 @ 01:14 AM by LoneGunMan
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Originally posted by Taxi-Driver
FDNY knew it was compromised and created a collapse zone around the building 4 hours before it finally fell.
To say WTC 7 fell due to demolition is saying the FDNY was involved with the mass murder of their fallen brothers.. There is no other way for the WTC
7 to be a demolition event and the FDNY not to be a part of it. And for you to accuse the men who lost so much that day to be an intregal part of this
snake-oil conspiracy makes me sad...real sad.
Dont even try and elude that anyone thinks the FDNY was part of it. NO one would ever think that this was a comment to create a reaction for a poster
to pull back.
What the heck are they supposed to do after two buildings fell and 343 of the finest people the world has to offer died? They had no clue WTF was
going on and had better have created a safe zone.
I will tell you what all firefighters are of the brotherhood and my brothers that day came back and stated it looked like a controlled demolition and
had the look on there faces of total disbelief. FDNY see it all and do it all, there is nothing in this world that would place that look on those
faces in the Naudet film unless something happened that they felt was extraordinary.
You know what makes ME sad....real sad? Its the pictures of George W. with his arm around a Firefighter at ground zero. It makes me grit my teeth and
mutter "get your unclean hands off my brother" 
I hardly ever post in this forum (I joined ATS because of 9/11) I get so frustrated and if I think too much about 9/11 I get really depressed and when
I see pictures of those men covered in dust and the look of seeing hell on there faces makes me weep.
You want snake oil? Go to the FED they are selling it by the barrel.
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reply posted on 10-5-2009 @ 01:21 AM by bl4ke360
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reply to post by Taxi-Driver
You seem to have quite a track record of "debunking" 9/11 threads, for over two years I see. Disinfo agent much? Evidence?:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
I doubt that any ordinary skeptic would waste 2 years coming here and attempt to prove 9/11 theories false, what do you even gain by it? Do you
seriously think anyone listens to your poor logic? Guess what, my logic says that your under the payroll.
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reply posted on 10-5-2009 @ 01:24 AM by googolplex
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reply to post by LoneGunMan
Hey Lonegunman,
One of things that got me was Fireman who said things were blowing up, and you could hear on his radio those things like rounds going off, the squibs
the ingniters for the thermit charges.
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reply posted on 10-5-2009 @ 01:27 AM by TrueAmerican
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reply to post by LoneGunMan
I'll second that motion completely my friend. I have never ever thought the FDNY had anything to do with this. On the contrary, I have very strong
feelings against the EPA which deceived them and all New Yorkers by claiming that the air was safe to breathe, when clearly it was not. The FDNY were
the unfortunate souls who had to deal with the aftermath of this mess. And that exact picture you are talking about did the same to me. I will not
dig it up, and please don't any of you either. I do not want to see it ever again. Sickening.
But alas, we digress. Folks, we better get back on topic, lest nasties start populating this thread. Although I suppose with this topic it could be
somewhat of a catch all regarding the fires bringing down the buildings (or not) - NOT!
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reply posted on 10-5-2009 @ 02:05 AM by oz1337
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reply posted on 10-5-2009 @ 02:12 AM by googolplex
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reply to post by oz1337
I don't what was Debunked they show all the staff of popular mechanic were fired, and replace with people who would print what they want them to.
[edit on 10-5-2009 by googolplex]
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