Five of The Most Solid Abduction Accounts

Originally posted by platosallegory
reply to post by da_beast_666

 

Wrong,

It's not as black & white as you want it to be.

This is why Detectives still use polygraphs in investigations. They can be beat but not by everyone. So it isn't as black or white as you make it out to be.

One of the first things police ask a potential suspect is would they volunteer to take a polygraph.

So it's not useless and it can be helpful in some cases.

Why should I accept your opinion over the person(s) who actually had the experience?

Yes, it does mean it happened unless you can show some evidence that they are lying or making it up.

If you start with the assumption the these things can't or don't exist then no matter what they say you will not accept it. I have come to the conclusion that extraterrestrials are a reasonable explanation for these things so I don't think that everyone who has had these experiences is lying, hallucinating or making things up.

I listen to the evidence and if the conclusion is reached that the experience is real to them then I have no reason to doubt them and believe the biased opinion of a skeptic.

platos,


polygraphs measure,skin conductivity,heart rate and breathing rate(if i remember correctly) which are all easily influenced by the emotion of the individual being tested. if the subject experiences a strong emotion during the testing it can provide false readings. one would expect such a thing to happen when recounting and abduction, whether real or imagined.

that's why in such cases, where the testee has deep emotional connection to the questions, whether positive or negative, it's best not to rely solely on a polygraph to determine truthfulness.

reply to post by optimus primal


Sure you can use polygraphs to determine truthfulness.

It's not the only thing you can use but it's one of the tools that you can use.

You can't have your own facts.

You can't say polygraphs are not useful when it comes to ufology.

Some say eyewitess accounts and mass sightings are not useful when it comes to ufology.

You can't have it your way. We use these things in everyday life to determine truthfulness. So, you can't then turn around and say well you can't use them in these cases. That's just silly.

So of course polygraphs are useful and very helpful along with other witnesses, radar reports, weather conditions, credibility and more.

These things make abduction cases, eyewitness accounts and mass sightings good evidence that can be weighed within reason.

It amazes me how people will say give me some evidence on one hand and then in the next breath they say you can't use any of the tools to investigate these things that we use in other walks of life.

That makes no sense.

We use polygraphs in police investigations. We use eyewitness accounts and mass eyetwness accounts in courtrooms everyday.

When it comes to ufology, some try to say they want evidence but we can't use these tools to gather evidence.

???????????????

reply to post by platosallegory


yes, they frequently are used in police investigations, however they are not, to my knowledge used as facts. mainly because they are not 100% accurate. in a perfect world polygraphs would be used like this : "we have x, y, z evidence that suspect did this, along with a failed polygraph." and usually that's how it goes. there is never, to my knowledge, any cases where the veracity of a witnesses statement based solely on a polygraph. that isn't having it both ways. they are fallible and inaccurate for those under large amounts of stress. i thought this was common knowledge?

Originally posted by jkrog08

So why do they have the big eyes?

"The better to EAT you with, my dear."

A line from a famous abduction account.

One of the Top Five.


Mike

reply to post by optimus primal


First, why are we speaking in absolutes? Nobody said anything about 100%. It doesn't have to be 100% to be used as an investigative tool. Police use forensic hypnosis and that has about an 80% success rate. You don't throw it out because it's not absolute.

It seems with ufology, absolutes are used quite often to avoid investigating the evidence within reason using the tools that are available to us.

Secondly, you act like these people are getting off of the ship and going straight to the polygraph chair. So stress is not a problem.

Third, you're premise makes no sense.

We have tools that have been used to investigate things. You can't try to rule out these tools when it comes to ufology. People can't have it their way. You can't say these tools can't be used to investigate abduction cases, mass sightings or eyewitness accounts.

If we can't use these tools, what are we suppose to do? Should we just try to channel the information?

I understand people's desire to try and twist logic when it comes to these things, but that doesn't work.

reply to post by platosallegory


recalling a traumatic event under questioning can produce the same amount of stress as the actual event.

secondly, i have no idea why you're getting so upset. i never said polygraphs shouldn't be used. or that they aren't a usefull tool. only that they are unreliable, and shouldn't be used AS THE ONLY TOOL, in an investigation, trying to determine witness reliability. i.e. if someone fails a polygraph it does not necessarily mean they are lying, nor does it mean they are telling the truth if they pass. it should be used only in conjunction with all other investigatory processes, and never relied on as the be all end all knowledge on the truth of a matter.

several people were talking about failed and inconclusive polygraphs so i spoke up about it's fallibility with regards to emotional trauma.

so how am i twisting things to suit my "way"or logic?

I'm not upset, I was just pointing out that it can be a useful tool even though it's not always correct.

I agree with you that it's not the only tool.

When I talked about twisted logic, I was referring to people in general that say you can't use polygraphs, eyewitness accounts or mass sightings when investigating these things.

I should have been clearer.

I mentioned in the last post how some people don't want you to use any tools of investigation when it comes to ufology.

Originally posted by observe50
Wasco I had to laugh what you wanted shoved up your butt I hope your dream comes true too!

]

Reading comprehension is not a biggie in your skill set is it? I didn't say that's what I WANT, I said that's what it will take to convince me abduction accounts are anything more than the products of disturbed minds and confabulated memories.

Wasco,

I understood quite well what you wrote I got ahead of myself you did leave a vivid impression even for an old lady.

Originally posted by Wasco
I said that's what it will take to convince me abduction accounts are anything more than the products of disturbed minds and confabulated memories.

There are a lot of kids and extended adolescents on these boards more interested in provoking feedback than anything else. It just dilutes the possibility of reasonable discussion of the subjects at hand.

I pretty much have written off the whole abduction phenomenon as much by applying common sense and character judgement to the abductees and their representatives as to the weight of evidence.

When you feel powerless you grab onto anything that can enhance your self-esteem and feeling of importance. The barrage of media generate imagery and stories has given us a wealth of material from which we can fabricate events that involve us personally.

And now there's a popular hobby and sub-industry that gives the illusion of support to claimants seeking reinforcement of their delusions.

All this starts to resemble the 19th Century phenomenon of contacts with ghosts or visitations from Saints, the Virgin Mary, JC himself.

Fiction can be much more compelling than fact for so many.

Mike


[edit on 3-5-2009 by mmiichael]

Nablator:I see you are going with pure facts and that is acceptable

Acceptable? What you must understand is that facts only can be discussed. By disregarding facts, you accept made-up stories and dreams as truth.

The Hill star map is extremely accurate compared to what Fish drew,and to what is known now.You must remember when Mrs.Hill drew the map she was recalling it from memory of a traumatic event so it is reasonable to assume that she could make the very small mistakes she did.

Have you read the other threads about the map? What about the big missing star in the center of the map? What about the two zeta Reticuli stars that are so close together, that they can't be seen as two separate stars on the same map as the other stars? That's a huge hole in the Fish interpretation. Without these two stars, there is no match, as they are the most prominent features of the map.

reply to post by mmiichael


A lot of young kids and old people uh?

Which one are you?

I am 23(well tomorrow will be),in college,and do not fit any of your "board polluter" criteria.I am sure you will find a lot of members on here are in the 20-40 age range.

You say people create fiction to entertain themselves,what do you do?You don't even listen to any evidence or accounts put forth by people researching the topic(me,and others on this sight) or the kind and generous members that are willing to share their extraordinary experiences.

Is every abduction or UFO account true?Absolutely not,but because that fact should we discredit every account we read,hear,or see?Absolutely not.

The point is not to believe blindly,but keep an open mind and take everything with a 'grain of salt'.The human mind is pretty good at searching out bs from truth.Just go with it and stop refusing to be open minded,even when you claim you are.

I feel some members are on this site just to argue their belief that aliens/UFOs don't exist,that's called pseudoskepticism.Are you on here for the right reasons?If not maybe you should go to "Myspace" or "Facebook" and socialize there.

[edit on 5/3/2009 by jkrog08]

reply to post by nablator


I haven't heard of that,but I will have a look at it.Also,the map was apparently a 'trade route' of some kind too,wouldn't that leave a possibility that only stars with life would be on there?

Originally posted by jkrog08


You say people create fiction to entertain themselves,what do you do?You don't even listen to any evidence or accounts put forth by people researching the topic(me,and others on this sight) or the kind and generous members that are willing to share their extraordinary experiences.

Is every abduction or UFO account true?Absolutely not,but because that fact should we discredit every account we read,hear,or see?Absolutely not.

The point is not to believe blindly,but keep an open mind and take everything with a 'grain of salt'.The human mind is pretty good at searching out bs from truth.Just go with it and stop refusing to be open minded,even when you claim you are.

I feel some members are on this site just to argue their belief that aliens/UFOs don't exist,that's called pseudoskepticism.

Thanks for the thoughts. If it means anything, I was reading and doing in situ research on UFOs before you were born.

A few decades of seeing so much deception and self-deception has brought me to my present position.

Skeptics are people who want to know the real truth as much or more than most others. They just get tired of seeing the same old misinformation and lunatic fringe thinking over and over.

Unlike in real life, history, science - in conspiracyland nothing ever gets disproven. I'm still reading arguments about Billy Meier, a guy who takes pictures of suspended toys and claims they are UFOs. I'm still reading long diatribes on the No Plane Theory despite a million photos, videos, witnesses, forensic evidence proving otherwise.

The open mind that is really needed is for those who read or watch videos on a chosen subject and accept it without questioning - to realize just because it appeals to their sense of wonder, or distrust of government, whatever - it doesn't make it automatically true.

Yes, people do delude themselves. More than a few around here. Pointing that out and explaining how they have gone wrong is not a crime.

We're here to learn. We're also here to unlearn.


Mike


[edit on 3-5-2009 by mmiichael]

edit to rewrite

[edit on 3-5-2009 by observe50]

About me---I know who cares, its short so it shouldn't hurt

Female
60
Mother 3
Grandmother 7
Raising 5 of the Grandkids
dry or warped sense of humor- me's gotta have it

I know when I write about this subject I'm not clowning around. I'm straight forward and tell it like it is and maybe old Grandma throws some humor or maybe even some attitude crap in there..... depends on my day.

If you want to learn something read my thread posted somewhere here in this thread. I know what I know about this subject because they let me remember actually they won't let me forget it.......I've tried.

I've been called every name you can imagine and insulted by many and until there typing fingers turned blue.

With age I finally realized they are the ones that have the problem with this subject and I question.......... do they really want to know?

What I write about is the way it is doesn't matter who likes or dislike it. There are many species right here in the deepest of our waters they are Terrestrial just as much as they are considered Extraterrestrial and the ships that's what we call them the "ships" anywho they are air and water ships.

There are many species that have been here forever let's say and they say, Earth is their's, I think they are correct.

You should realize with many different species here there are humans taken by these different species hence different types and styles of being taken. I only talk about the ones I know but you must remember there are members here at ATS that are dealing with different beings.

Experiences can be good, not soooooooooooo good and many just not understood.

Let's face it there are good humans, bad humans, good humans that do bad things on occassion, and bad humans that do good things on occassion. Well, it's a mirror imagine with life beings also.

Mike, you hit pay dirt today because Grandma does know what she is talking about.

Gotta love me......not

reply to post by observe50


www.abovetopsecret.com...

There's your thread!

I thought I'd help you out and re post it,maybe others will read the fascinating accounts, ones that I for one believe to be true.

Originally posted by jkrog08
I haven't heard of that,but I will have a look at it.

Thanks, look for my posts in two threads about the map. Googling things is not research, the evidence at hand must be studied to form an opinion. Belief first study later is harder. I used to be a believer and it took me years to unlearn all the crap.

Also,the map was apparently a 'trade route' of some kind too,wouldn't that leave a possibility that only stars with life would be on there?

Yes, which helps tremendously finding a match in type K, G, F stars, as any subset can be cherry picked. There are more than a thousand candidate stars according to the TPF-I team within 30 parsecs (~100 light years).
planetquest.jpl.nasa.gov...

I would like to share with you my experience with Travis Walton. By pure happenstance I got to have dinner with Travis one night. I spent three hours with him eye ball to eye ball. I listen to him and was truly impressed with his openess, vulnerablity and integrity. I looked into his eyes as he spoke and felt the energy in his words. He talked about his life since his abduction. He talked about his life in general. When he did speak about his experience there was a great deal of pain and fear in his eyes and words. It was like he flipped a switch to protect himself from the demons of the experience so he could relate to us.

From that personal experience I was able to make up my own mind as to weather this man was the real deal or not. I am 100% convinced that what he experienced happened. There is no doubt for me. Listening to him and being in his presents I wouldn't want his life. That experience/ abduction is with him 24/7 and he tries as best as he can to deal with it. I just hope that happenstance happens for you and you can sit down and have dinner with him and then come to your own conculsions.

I have always believed Travis.

I know for myself when people have there own mind set they aren't going to change until they see, feel, or experience for themselves.

The way I see it is I put information out that they have shown and told me and it can be taken however one wants to take it, my point is it is out there for FREE.

Not only are there many out there, there are many here!

edit to add thanks jk



[edit on 4-5-2009 by observe50]