Five of The Most Solid Abduction Accounts

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posted on May, 2 2009 @ 05:34 AM
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Originally posted by mmiichael

***snip***
For centuries there has been a similar phenomenon wherein people have the repeated experience of being controlled by a demon, usually that appears to them in bed at night.

Religious possession or supernatural visitations were the cultural contexts of previous centuries. With Science Fiction becoming a mainstream fantasy genre, the more recent unexplainable visitations have become attributed to extraterrestrials.

Notably as the decades proceed, the aliens conform more and more to media
generated versions like the Whitley Streiber cover hairless elongated infant with huge dark eyes.

Not my role to go over the cases mentioned here. But outstandingly dismissable ones, Travis Walton turned out to be a fake, the Hills a tragic shared delusion, etc.

On a conspiracy forum making these statements are tantamount to heresy, I know. But somehow as objective examination is applied to the incidents and claimants, the evidence starts to fade in the sunlight.

This is not to say that most of the people involved are being intentionally deceptive. But like many reported cases by children of being taken to underground caverns by adults, and being sexually abused, independent substantiatian attempts have found conflicting claims of locations, dates, etc that essentially nullify the stories.

I’m sure to people involved in these type of incidents, the experience is very real and traumatic.

But the question remains, did something even resembling what they believe ever happen?


Mike


Well spoken Ssiir

And I wonder if some people haven't confused the "Conspiracy Forum" bit somewhat.

I'm sure ATS is a haven for people trying out different formats of the truth and freely discuss conspiracy theories.
But surely even the most ardent conspiratist must welcome proof of his theory beeing untrue. After all he will be able to sleep better at night




posted on May, 2 2009 @ 07:24 AM
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I doubt any abductions are occurring in any real physical sense. As for implants, none have ever tested out to be anything but normal debris found in people. Not one has proven to be a recognizable machine or made of unearthly materials. Multiple witnesses that socialize after an even can confabulate a shared memory of events that did not happen. And there's always an other side, here's the other side to two of the OP "gold standard" abduction cases:

www.debunker.com...

nielsenhayden.com...



posted on May, 2 2009 @ 07:49 AM
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Originally posted by Wasco

I doubt any abductions are occurring in any real physical sense. As for implants, none have ever tested out to be anything but normal debris found in people. Not one has proven to be a recognizable machine or made of unearthly materials. Multiple witnesses that socialize after an even can confabulate a shared memory of events that did not happen. And there's always an other side, here's the other side to two of the OP "gold standard" abduction cases:



I don't recall the source immediately, but I read a rather sad and telling article about abduction claims a few years ago. I think it was a follow-up to the Budd Hopkins book.

This journalist interviewed in person many of the people who were claimed victims. While the age, gender, professions varied, the common demographic with the majority were very overweight to obese women in their 30s and 40s. Usually a low level drudge job, apparent low self esteem issues, little social life or activities, always cats. They maintained unusually high fantasy inner lives, hooked on Science Fiction and Fantasy, New Age literature, the supernatural, and UFOS literature.

They were transformed into celebrities when academics and writers started interviewing them wanting to know their views, experiences, etc.

Attention and new found status.

A lot recent studies on the constantly shifting nature of memory. It has been show that people in retellings tend to amplify and embellish their stories over time. One well document study, people who Saw Abraham Lincoln shot in the Ford Theater were interviewed the next day by newspapers. As the historical importance grew over the years, so did their stories. Some of the witnesses were even interviewed 40 years later.

In many cases they tended to magnify their involvement and centralness to the situation. One man in a wheelchair initially said he only heard the shot and saw John Wilkes Booth rush past him in the aisles. Decades later, as he told the story, he was grappling with Booth, trying to subdue him.

People inevitably tend to modify their versions of events to please and entertain their audience. Many in the process want to increase their prestige and respect in a world where most of us are destined to anonymity.

More I could say, but I think most reading this will get the picture.


Mike


[edit on 2-5-2009 by mmiichael]



posted on May, 2 2009 @ 09:29 AM
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I feel as if I need to write this again, if for nothing else I 'll do it for the ones that haven't read my thread.

The beings I know consider the human race a stupid species. The use of the word stupid was not an insult it was a word used that I would understand.

They showed me a model of the human brain they told me that the human race only knows how to use little of there brain and that they do have intelligence and this makes for a good study. When I am talking here I am talking of the beings I know.

Forward:

Our Scientist know that these beings have superior intelligence so they are looking at things in an intelligent Scientific way BUT you have to remember these beings consider us a stupid species so they really have made things easy for us and we aren't getting it.

This is what was communicated to me:

"""You try to hard through Science to prove things, just use logic and common sense..... the answers are the simplest the ones you always overlook."""

Example ask a child what color is an apple without thought they say red
ask as Scientist and the answer might be well, that depends on the type of apple you are talking about there are different types.... red, red-green, green, yellow and so on.....when the simple answer is red.

Open your minds and heck let your brains fall out.





[edit on 2-5-2009 by observe50]



posted on May, 2 2009 @ 10:37 AM
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Originally posted by jkrog08
reply to post by nablator
 


My opinion is that they are definitely not compelling.

What is not compelling about those two cases?

Well, basically Betty Hill worked hard to discredit herself, friends warned her, but she went on, claiming hundreds of UFO sightings:
www.livescience.com...

The evidence is weak:
-Memories retrieved by hypnosis, not much correlated by Barney Hill, who had his eyes conveniently closed most of the time.
-The unconfirmed, alleged radar echo does not necessarily agree with the time and place of the sighting and abduction.
-The pattern of stars identified by Marjorie Fish does not match Betty Hill's map with the actual distances of the two zeta Reticuli binary stars and other stars. The selection of stars eliminated variable stars, but two of the main stars in the Marjorie Fish interpretation are now known to be variable: 54 Psc and 107 Psc. So by her own criteria, these stars should be out.
-The cause of the pink stain on the dress is not identified, there is no reason to assume it is anything extraordinary.

About Travis Walton, there are many controversial aspects, but his promotional support for the film "Fire in the Sky" that bears almost no resemblance to the original narrative is proof, to me, that he didn't care much about the truth and more about the movie and book deals.
en.wikipedia.org...

Another subject, implants. If Dr Leir is the only MD (is he a MD as a podiatrist?) endorsing the alien origin of bits and pieces he removed from his patients, there are good reasons. A critical view here:
www.cicap.org...



posted on May, 2 2009 @ 11:51 AM
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A lot, maybe most UFO claimants go on to become repeat performers and abductees. Goes with the attention and low level celebrity status. You're
on stage and expected to perform. The audience only loves you when you're in a Close Encounter.

Barney and Betty Hill, ordinary not exceptionally bright people. No ability to separate when a repeating dream starts seem like memory. And then the power of suggestion kicks in.

There may be alien contacts, if aliens have ever visited our planet and are hiding in the bushes up there. So far nothing to substantiate this also shared belief.

The star maps, well I'd bet if an astronomer looked at them he'd laugh his head off.

Sorry of this deflates balloons.


Mike



posted on May, 2 2009 @ 12:09 PM
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I think abduction cases, mass sightings and ewywitness accounts are some of the strongest evidence.

We weigh the credibility of the witness in all walks of life and we have to weigh it in the case of ufology.

I think the skeptic can't be trusted in these areas because they live in their own logic. They will say this person can't be trusted because of this or that so their story is false but when a guy who has a stellar record has an experience they still don't give any weight to the story. They still want to debate what they think happened like that's evidence of anything.

They also make these broad generalizations when it comes to these things.

They say well because this can happen, it's some how has to have happened in all of these cases. They don't provide hardly any evidence just speculation.

It's like saying corned beef can cause heartburn so every case of heartburn has to be caused by corned beef.

So because they can put a helmet on a guy in a lab, flash a light in his face in specific ways and send a complex pattern to his brain and he has an OBE this means these things are not happening. It makes no sense but that's skeptics logic.

None of the things listed above about Betty and Barney Hill counter the story of Betty and Barney Hill.

It's just speculation.

Barney kept his eyes closed:

People get scared and close their eyes and I can imagine the fear if you're facing these things. This is not evidence of anything. It doesn't counter the event in any way, shape or form.

They didn't identify the stain on the dress:

Again, this means nothing. It doesn't counter the event and it doesn't counter wether the event occured as they described.

Betty Hill's map:

Her map was very strong seeing that she was not an astronomer and it's not like today when so much of this stuff is seen on Cable and the internet. It was so important that they put the story in Astronomer magazines and had some for and some against. What was Betty Hills's knowledge base to draw something like this that would get so much attention from the scientific community?

Someone mentioned Dr. Lier's implant work.

The skeptic's reasoning is that because some objects can enter the body while say playing in the yard barefoot, that this has to be the case in these cases. This makes no sense. You have to give evidence that these things occured in each of these specific cases. These things were removed after an abduction experience was reported.

Work still needs to be done in these areas but there's ways to rule things out in these areas and more to investigate.

I think skeptics need to provide evidence and not just debate what they think occured.



posted on May, 2 2009 @ 12:09 PM
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All I can say is, "I know" and I wait the day for some of you to know. I do hope your time is soon...........



posted on May, 2 2009 @ 12:43 PM
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Originally posted by mmiichael

I don't recall the source immediately, but I read a rather sad and telling article about abduction claims a few years ago. I think it was a follow-up to the Budd Hopkins book.

This journalist interviewed in person many of the people who were claimed victims. While the age, gender, professions varied, the common demographic with the majority were very overweight to obese women in their 30s and 40s. Usually a low level drudge job, apparent low self esteem issues, little social life or activities, always cats. They maintained unusually high fantasy inner lives, hooked on Science Fiction and Fantasy, New Age literature, the supernatural, and UFOS literature.

Mike


[edit on 2-5-2009 by mmiichael]


It's funny you mention that. In the late 1980s and early 1990s I went to a number of UFO events. I was in the audience at the 1992 MUFON Symposium in Albuquerque when Budd Hopkins introduced the now infamous Linda Cortile/Napolitano. It was going to these events and meeting these women, at the time they were always women, that convinced me it's probably all BS. Invariably they fit, or seemed to fit, your profile above. Sad, lonely, inconsequential people looking for a little significance in their lives. Then of course Butler, Hansen, and Stefula demolished the Linda Napolitano story. Whitley Strieber continued to expose the depth of his mental illness. And John Mack became increasingly embarrassing to Harvard. I guess I'll believe in alien abductions when I wake up on a flying saucer with a spray painted sex toy shoved up my rear.



posted on May, 2 2009 @ 02:32 PM
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reply to post by Wasco
 



The following is from YOUR source you gave me:


One of the doctors, Howard Kandell, stated it "was compatible with a puncture wound such as when somebody takes blood from you."

To this end, Rogers and his crew volunteered to take polygraph examinations the following Monday, November 10. During the exams, C.E. Gilson of the Arizona Department of Public Safety asked four "relevant" questions; three of which dealt with whether Walton had been seriously injured or killed by the one or more members of the crew. The fourth question, added at the last minute, was: "Did you tell the truth about actually seeing a UFO last Wednesday when Travis Walton disappeared?" Not surprisingly, the six crew members were unanimous in their responses: "No" to the first three questions and "Yes" to the last. Five were judged to be truthful, results on the sixth (Allen Dalis) were "inconclusive."



APRO announced on February 7, 1976, that both Travis and Duane had passed an exam given by George Pfeiffer, who worked for Tom Ezell and Associates. But that test was flawed in a number of respects: Pfeiffer allowed Walton to dictate a number of the questions he asked. While it is not uncommon for polygraphers to allow the test subjects and/or sponsors to outline the general area to be probed, allowing the subject to dictate specific questions violates the basic principles of polygraphy and should invalidate the test results. Also, Pfeiffer was relatively inexperienced, having been practicing only two years. This inexperience expressed itself when he judged Walton's "No" answer to the question "Before November 5, 1975, were you a UFO buff?" to be truthful. Walton's answer directly contradicted information provided by both his mother and brother Duane and by Walton himself during an earlier psychological examination.

Later in March of 1976, when Pfeiffer's employer Tom Ezell had reviewed the charts, he concluded that it was impossible to determine if Walton and Duane were answering the test questions truthfully.


debunker.com

So in essence we have your own side still undecided,but offering other explanations.Using the same arguments others and yourself do.With the high volume of like accounts one must,at the very least,keep an open mind and use logic and probability.The Hill case is no different from this one in evidence either,in fact it has more and the skeptics debunks are much weaker.

mmicheal:You say that all these “delusions and sleep disorders” have been happening for centuries,I agree.But you see “sleep disorders and delusions”,I see ET abduction for at least half of them.When you use logic here what seems more likely;

1.For hundreds of years there has been mass delusions and sleep disorders with people describing the same things(ancients called them gods,medieval people called them demons,we call them aliens) or…
2.For hundreds of years countless alien abductions have been going on and what these people claim is true and not a ‘mass dilusion’ or ‘mass sleep disorder’,the odds heavily favor mine and others theory.

mattmulder:Thanks,and Ive always wondered if a lot of these implants were switched,I don’t know.Actually quite a few have returned anomalous test results.Our technology hasn’t improved that much as some more recent implants were removed and still found to be “anomalous and inconclusive”.In fact there was a recent History Channel,UFO Hunters episode with one being removed,I will post the video below.

Nablator:I see you are going with pure facts and that is acceptable,but I think the Hill case(among the others) with the star map is highly believable and likely.The Hill star map is extremely accurate compared to what Fish drew,and to what is known now.You must remember when Mrs.Hill drew the map she was recalling it from memory of a traumatic event so it is reasonable to assume that she could make the very small mistakes she did.

Here is the youtube video that shows some very astonishing cases with the newest implant extraction that had some VERY ODD finds.I suggest all watch this!




posted on May, 2 2009 @ 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by observe50
***snip***
The beings I know consider the human race a stupid species. The use of the word stupid was not an insult it was a word used that I would understand.
***snip***


Just for arguments sake I'll grant you the benefit of the doubt (usually nullified when it comes to extraordinary claims).

Maybe they think we are stupid because of the company they keep?



posted on May, 2 2009 @ 02:48 PM
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I also think the Travis Walton case is a good case because there has been no evidence that shows that this was fake or the event didn't occur. If Walton was by himself it would be a much weaker case. These witnesses passed polygraph tests as well. These men have not changed their story. This is what they said:

"If I had to do it over again I wouldn't get out of the truck."
-Travis Walton

"I've been working these woods for over ten years and this is the damnedest thing that ever happened to me!"
-Mike Rogers - 1975

"I've been working these woods for over thirty years and this is still the damnedest thing that ever happened to me!"
-Mike Rogers - 1995

"We couldn't believe what was happening. The horror was unreal."
-Allen Dalis

"I know what I saw—and it wasn't anything from this earth!"
-John Goulette

"I saw a bluish light come from the machine and Travis went flying—like he'd touched a live wire!"
-Kenneth Peterson

"That ray was the brightest thing I've ever seen in my whole life!"
-Steve Pierce

"The UFO was smooth and was giving off a yellowish-orange light."
-Dwayne Smith

www.travis-walton.com...



posted on May, 2 2009 @ 02:52 PM
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Wasco I had to laugh what you wanted shoved up your butt I hope your dream comes true too!


Sooner rather then later


[edit on 2-5-2009 by observe50]



posted on May, 2 2009 @ 03:28 PM
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reply to post by platosallegory
 



Great counter arguments friend!

Doesn't always seem we get to arguing about a SKEPTICS BELIEF,rather than the facts and evidence?!



posted on May, 2 2009 @ 03:29 PM
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reply to post by observe50
 


Feel free to share more of your accounts if you please,I am sure all of us would be happy to hear them,plus they would sure contribute to this thread about abductions!



posted on May, 2 2009 @ 03:31 PM
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Originally posted by HolgerTheDane

Originally posted by observe50
***snip***
The beings I know consider the human race a stupid species. The use of the word stupid was not an insult it was a word used that I would understand.
***snip***


Just for arguments sake I'll grant you the benefit of the doubt (usually nullified when it comes to extraordinary claims).

Maybe they think we are stupid because of the company they keep?



Or it's because we always think " That can't be true. Prove it "

Things happen all the time and we as humans get the hunches or gut feelings of ok I know this is it but I can't prove it.

They are saying to just go with it and stick with that because by trying to prove it we might accidentally discard some important info because we think we know a part of an answer to be true when it infact is falese.

And this throws off our "research" and leads us away from the answer in the wrong direction.

We still burn fosil fuel for energy when we know we could put all our smartest people in the world in one building and figure out free energy in a year or 2 .


We all know this could happen but we for some reason don't all just " get it".


We have very intelligent people. But we also have very very dumb people.

And sometimes the dumbest people are the ones who think they are smart and know the answer but are so close minded.

Thats why kids are awesome and we can learn from them. They just go by what makes sense.

So should we.

Not trying to insult people but Close minded people are very stupid people.

They are soooo stupid that they think they are smart.

That is how dumb they are.

Does not get any dumber than that.



posted on May, 2 2009 @ 03:34 PM
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reply to post by LucidDreamer85
 



Not trying to insult people but Close minded people are very stupid people.

They are soooo stupid that they think they are smart.

That is how dumb they are.

Does not get any dumber than that.


Great point,ignorance is the ultimate level of stupidity.



posted on May, 2 2009 @ 04:33 PM
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I never have been very good at explaining things but I think maybe I need to make myself a little bit clearer.

Stupid when he used this word I was a young one and he knew I would in time understand the meaning he had intended.

He was basically saying the human race only at this time knows how to use a certain percentage (small percentage) of there brain and that this race does not know how to use there brains to the fullest but they do have intelligence and this makes a good study for them.

The beings I know of are extremely intelligent.

We are intelligence enough for ourselves but until you get to know what you are dealing with them only then will you realize how stupid we really are.

You might be only thinking human race intelligence I am talking the intelligence in all the Universe.

Many people believe they have big black eyes because it helps them see in the dark when they do there abductions but this is incorrect. .... they can see just fine in bright light and they come in the night because they are afraid of humans and take them as hostile and it is easier for them to have control when the human body is at rest. It is a safety thing more for them.

I wrote about many things in a post I posted in this thread a page ago I believe.

I'm not out to prove anything to anyone all I am here to do is share my small part with you. I look forward to the day that the tracking device is located right where I said it would be located. I look forward to the day when they discover there are many species and ships in the deepest of our waters. I look forward to the diiscovery that all life doesn't need what we need to live. I look forward to the day it is discovered that our Solar System is teaming with life parallel to us (the same but different)

One time I was told to make people see that the Planets and Moons are all wrong for one another I don't know why. What I do know is..... all those stars up there aren't stars.

What has been happening here to abductee's is something that has always taken place.... everywhere in the Universe this is the way it is weather you like it or not.

Now you might get a small snip of why the Vatican and the Government doesn't want you to know.


JKROG just want to say I am not here to take away from your thread they are all interesting but I must admit, I do know more then all of them put together .......sad but true.

[edit on 2-5-2009 by observe50]



posted on May, 2 2009 @ 05:01 PM
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reply to post by observe50
 


So why do they have the big eyes?



posted on May, 2 2009 @ 06:07 PM
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Think about that one I think the answer will come to you.

I have to apologize I did not intend to distract from your thread and I believe I need to get us back where we need to be.

I think the cases that have been presented are above board and I don't have a problem with them.

I have been with and spoken to Betty and Barney's Niece (and her husband) and they are wonderful "quite" people. I believe the words she speaks.

What I have read and seen everything looks just about right to me on how things work.



[edit on 2-5-2009 by observe50]





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