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When does a group belief become a cult and why?

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posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 05:53 AM
reply to post by headlightone

Very true. Not all cults are motivated by financial gain. The deceptions you speak of really do need to be brought out into the forefront.

Some cults don't always have a visible leader. The leader is described to the members as a secretive and mysterious entity who knows all and is within you "as it has always been". This establishes the "I am special" or "I am the one" belief in the member and the reassurance they're not worshipping any god, but enlightning one's self.

posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 06:55 AM

Originally posted by SS,Naga

Don Juan gave a slight edge to women.
I don't think the edgewas so slight....
(But please, keep it secret!)

After Castaneda dropped from public view in 1973, he bought a large house in Los Angeles which he shared with three of his female followers, who became known as the Witches. All of the women who lived with him and who were known by this title were said to be or have been his lovers at some point.[5]

The Witches were required to break off their relationships with friends and family when they joined Castaneda's group. They also refused to be photographed and took new names - Regina Thal became Florinda Donner-Grau, Maryann Simko became Taisha Abelar and Kathleen Pohlman became Carol Tiggs.

According to Corey Donovan (aka Richard Jennings), creator of the Sustained Action website:

The use of the term "the Witches" to relate to the three women Castaneda was eventually to claim had also been apprentices of don Juan seems to date to the early nineties, when books by two of these women purporting to describe their experiences with don Juan and his party were published. These three women are Florinda Donner-Grau, Taisha Abelar and Carol Tiggs. All three of them appeared and sometimes lectured at many of the Tensegrity workshops that began in July 1993, and Florinda and Taisha appeared at book signings and gave occasional lectures or radio interviews as well.

Shortly after Carlos died, Florinda and Taisha disappeared, along with Patricia Partin (see the Blue Scout below). Talia Bey (Cleargreen president - born Amalia Marquez) and Tensegrity instructor Kylie Lundal had their phones disconnected and also disappeared. On August 2, 1998 Carol spoke at a workshop in Ontario. None of the Witches have been seen in public since. Spokespeople from Cleargreen have said only that they are "travelling", but no other information is available. It is speculated that they have committed suicide.[6]

Because the women had cut all ties with family and friends it was some time before people noticed they were missing. There has been no official investigation into the disappearances of Donner-Grau, Simko and Lundal. Luis Marquez, the brother of Talia Bey, went to the police in 1999 over his sister's disappearance, but was unable to convince them that her disappearance merited investigation. Their opinion changed in 2006 after the remains of Patricia Partin were identified, and the LAPD finally added Talia to their missing person database.[7]

Interesting Castenada has been mentioned a few times for cult-like behaviour and living arrangements before his death in 1998.

posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 07:06 AM
reply to post by undermind

There is so much gossip and very little information, so I have no opinion on this.

I read books by Florinda Donner and Taisha Abelar, and their books, although not illiterate, are nothing compared to Castaneda's books.

There were some really idiotic attempts to discredit Castaneda, especially because don Juan was not a "real" person as he claimed (a valid postmodernist claim
isn't it?). Of course he was not a "real" person, and so Lord Byron's Don Juan was not a real person, and Brothers Karamazov were not real persons...

Although Castaneda's idea of warriors' parties as is explained in his Eagle's Gift is an interesting concept, I never found any proof in my experience that something like that was really possible. Perhaps Castaneda was trying to create some party with those women, which turned out as some kind of cult. I don't see any other way it could have worked but to use it as a pose.

I think those women possibly got lost after his death.

The way Castaneda described La Gorda and other witches in his books, is very much idealized. Maybe we should apply the psychological idea of "anima" to them.

[edit on 8-3-2009 by DangerDeath]

posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 08:19 AM

Originally posted by Nichiren
A cult is always "exclusive" and never tolerates a dissenting opinion.
Oh wait, that reminds me of this thread ....

Always open to a opposing opinion, why are you for cults?
If so then get back on thread and present your argument for.
I am sure if the facts that you introduce are in favour of the cult then all power to you .

posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 08:58 AM
I would like to get back to psychic attack ,astral attack as methods of keeping the group within a psychic cult.
In my opinion and through reading on the subject and having my own astral/lucid experiences I have come to the experimental theory that the
"Astral Plane"is a quarantine area that has been imposed on humanity by from a higher level to control the mind of the human race.
Thoughts at the unconscious level develops actual form and is kept in a quarantine area the "Astral Plane" and each individual works out his karma and trains his thoughts in this quarantine area.
Going back to this experimental idea that I am working on. those from a higher level know that when a sentient being is created and the mind of the person evolves then that mind wil start to go out of control and fear its demise which will happen.
The anxious desperate mind will develop fear and regret ,hate all the negative emotions.The thought processes that manifest the Actual forms in the astral plane will be shady and dark and desperate.Any positive thoughts such as love joy etc will be short lived and have a short time period as they are underpinned by the minds dominating fear of its demise.
The True self lives in the now and has no negative traits and does nt fear its extinction as it is energy and is infinate.
If an individual becomes aware of this "Ascension" realising all parts of yourself then eventualy by applying intent on all thought forms you have created and severing ties and understanding that all is an illusion one
should not even enter the said astral plane.
You have in fact served out the quarantine and are free.
Perhaps thats what 2012 and other dates point to more people becoming aware and escaping quarantine.
The Astral plane is needed by the mass false mind consciousness to manifest its continuing existance
The mind is set on keeping the individual asleep and maintaining its home the astral plane.
If everybody became aware The astral plane would collapse and their would probably be some type of void or empty room.
The cult leader is the minds friend as he continues through fear and dependency to build the astral plane and maintain its home.
Start waking up and stopping the out of control mind NOW people.

posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 10:16 AM
reply to post by DangerDeath

I have come to conclusion that, not only "public" language, but all language was invented with one purpose only: to hide the truth.

Knowledge, being direct, doesn't need a medium to be communicated. On the contrary, the principle of sharing can be applied to language with heavy limitations, because truth gets diluted and lost in meaning (lost in translation).

In public speech there is no truth, it is always lies, in order to hide intentions.

Brilliant, I like your style this is something I strongly agree with, words only distort the truth as there is no real depth to a word, yet people think they understand the untimed truth through words. Eckhart Tolle explains this brilliantly in “The Power of Now” and “A New Earth”

Through my own experience I have seen how I have become attached to words “Enlightenment, Awareness, Ascension” I became attached to words because I thought I understood their meaning, however it’s only when you drop the attachment to the words you truly understand through insight. I gained more through insight than I did through analysis, or as you put it “Knowledge, being direct, doesn't need a medium to be communicated”

I noticed how Cult’s pull you into analysis; they seem to throw words at you like “Enlightenment, Awareness, Ascension, Astral Plane, The light and so on…” they draw you into compulsive thinking and over analyzing, they do this by throwing pages and pages of information at you, then constantly reminding you “You must read to understand” – “you must understand this to progress” Once they have you in this compulsive thinking state of mind you become venerable and easy to manipulate.

So in a sense it’s entirely my fault I got involved with a cult, you ever heard the saying “Curiosity killed the cat” Curiosity is Ego “The need to know more” and the cat is “Being” what is. When you stop seeking words to explain who you are, you spend more time being you.

posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 10:54 AM
Yes, yes, I know all the post-don Juanian stuff.

Carlos' indeed became a cult leader of his small group,
behaving in ways that 'exempted' him from all the
rules. Without the abusive master, the followers had
to crumble and hide. It is dangerous out here in illusionality.

This philosophical thing is funny. Philosphy and religion are
the Two Thieves on the Cross of Life, with the False master
hanging, shamefully, in the middle, 'til It's dead (androgynous).

The don Juan character was real, believers in illusion: I won't
argue how bright and blinding matter knowing is: it's so bright..
and clever, a real know-all.

I have almost 40 years of the miraculous upon me.
I have never said 'don Juan' the name was real.
I have clarified: the persona was probably a spanish-white
man, perhaps with some native blood. None will ever know.

I have always detested Carlos; of course he was a trickster:
A thief, along with his girls, also thiefs: the One in the Middle
of it All, the androgynous One, was quite a real character,
as I have been able to verify. The indigenous teachings of
shamanic knowledge are based upon the 'secret sayings' of
Quetzalcoatl, another trickster. A 'death defier.'

It was this apprenticeship which allowed a fool and a liar to
learn from a master of it, who, as all know, quickly exited.
Off he (androgynous) went, leaving the kids behind, as

And the mayan and aztec sacrifices were 'fable,' also,
even the 10,000 in one day story. Hmmm.

When you reach a certain point, you will find that the lies
you hold as truths turn and bite you, and then you will,
on that day, say: It was Real...?

It was Real, the Central Figure, killed by the Ignorant. You.

PS - This message has been brought to you by Mother Earth,
and Her merciless Mate, the King of the World, Satan:
Two Lovers. (Archetypes - they're not real either, are they?)

[edit on 8-3-2009 by SS,Naga]

posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 12:50 PM
reply to post by SS,Naga

It happened so that I saw one of my own descriptions, written maybe 20 years ago, in his book The Art of Dreaming. The scene with white stone slabs piled around the church where Carlito meets the Tenant...

Of course, asking how is that possible, is a stupid question to ask, when you know that it is

It was about the time I had realized that I had already packed my coffers, though the coffers were empty

[edit on 8-3-2009 by DangerDeath]

posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 12:55 PM
I never had much interest in Casteneda. I read all his books but they had too much of a 'fight for power' involved in them, I really wasn't interested. But in the early-mid 90's I read his book "The Art of Dreaming" and he literally talked about a BUNCH of stuff that I'd been personally going through the previous two years--stuff that I still haven't seem much other literature address--and I was so astonished and impressed. I respected him more after that simply because I knew from personal experience that he was onto stuff that had some validity in my reality. All the previous stuff about sorcery was not much in my interest--although the 'dreaming into other realities' was.


posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 01:03 PM
reply to post by RedCairo

In his book Eagle's Gift he wrote the rules of Stalking. He literally cut and pasted Descartes' Provisional Morale from his Treatise on the Method and strategy from Sun Tsu's The Art of War.

He knew what he was doing, and his books are some kind of synthesis of Chan Buddhism and other valuable philosophies. He had talent to put it all in some kind of mystical wrapping. I liked this flavor of his.

How much of shamanism there is I really don't know, but I wouldn't even bother to call it shamanism. It is too "modern" in expression. But maybe it's just me, for I'm used to fly across the Galaxy both in space and in time

posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 01:40 PM
reply to post by IamNow

Yes Eckhart tolle along with Buddhism they resonate with me.
Indeed any sort of over indulgance especialy being introspective will cause nausea.
I think its best to duck in and out of beliefs keep testing them because normaly theirs no set shape to anything.
I think being flexible with a subject and sometimes keeping it at arms length is the correct action.
When you feel comfortable with anything a red light should come on warning you to retreat from that comfort zone.

posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 01:41 PM

Originally posted by IamNow
I noticed how Cult’s pull you into analysis; they seem to throw words at you like “Enlightenment, Awareness, Ascension, Astral Plane, The light and so on…” they draw you into compulsive thinking and over analyzing, they do this by throwing pages and pages of information at you, then constantly reminding you “You must read to understand” – “you must understand this to progress” Once they have you in this compulsive thinking state of mind you become venerable and easy to manipulate.

So in a sense it’s entirely my fault I got involved with a cult, you ever heard the saying “Curiosity killed the cat” Curiosity is Ego “The need to know more” and the cat is “Being” what is. When you stop seeking words to explain who you are, you spend more time being you.

I totally agree. they provide you with pages and pages of glossarys, definitions and progress analysis. Words are given for godlight, godforce,soul force, amplified soul energy,godheads, godhead suns the list is ENDLESS and we are made to feel that until we understand the meaning of all we will not progress. Then as you say your mind becomes so full of these definitions and what they mean, you over analyse it. Your mind runs away with you and this makes you very open to manipulation.

You are told you can not become an elder/master/supreme goddess/lord or what ever else they decide until you have a full understanding of all. This of course is designed to work on your ego. You actually start to believe you are a planetary guardian/unifier or a radiant love god.
Its mental and the longer we stay in cults the more we actually believe we are an ascending master or a galactic unifier.

YES curiosity is ego , and “Curiosity killed the cat” Curiosity is Ego “The need to know more” and the cat is “Being” what is.

Cults make things so confusing and complicated you just dont know who or what you are anymore.

posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 01:49 PM
A male philosopher: philosphy as a system to describe and map Being and Universal Potential.

Yeah, I'll buy that...I've got a bent penny (what it's worth).

A female direct experiencer: the Truth resides in the Hidden Feminine, as I've endlessly (here on ats & elsewhere) expressed.

One denies, the other validates.

One verifies with humble expression; the other invalidates with 'cosmic voyager potentials.'

This debate has gone on endlessly since the first CC book was released; I'm not here to resolve it.

I will honestly tell everybody here: If you can experience this with the direct light of three days of spontaneous cosmic consciousness (17 yrs. old - no enhancers, ever!), then you know you don't have to 'travel' the are the cosmos. Walter Russell (I later read), experienced this for 39 days. When it happened, I didn't know the cosmos from a hole in the ground.

Now, I am the hole in the ground.

You believe who you want: the original inspirer of CC, or someone who's not just been there, but is there.

The Tenant was Quetzalcoatl...a secret jesu enitity.

And I can also reveal the truth about shamans: you'd stumble over one, before you'd recognize one, unless either they, or your SoulLight revealed them. Man, I love dogma and philosophy: it is just like science: explaining the Invisible from the material side of being & experience.

If you wish to encounter the Real, put away your shiney lures of dogma and philosophy, and catch the really Big Fish.

Sorry for this Invasion of Light from the Real, I know how that upsets any illusioners.

[edit on 8-3-2009 by SS,Naga]

posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 01:58 PM
Festingers theory of cognitive dissonance a story of infiltration into a UFO Cult and then testing his 5 conditions of Cognitive dissonance is an interesting read.It tests how a belief holds together when the outcome is inevitable.

posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 02:16 PM

Originally posted by IamNow

Through my own experience I have seen how I have become attached to words

Whilst researching for my previous post about the words cults use to confuse us and manipulate us with I came across this

Saint Alia wishes to confirm Saint Alexa's message, the former already given through Lord Azeroth, regarding the Dominant Aura Color of red for a recently fallen Elder who has turned to the dark side, who channels Group Entity energies, and who will not regain a level of mastery (even as a Magi) again.

Now the fallen elder is me. It is I who have turned to the dark side and I that will never regain my spiritual mastery.

Now some on this thread will understand the true horror and meaning of what it is to be condemed to a dominant aura colour of red. It basically means my soul has been condemed to hell, actually to the levels below hell to absolute hell infact.

Now Im strong and I dont believe this rubbish for a moment, but I wanted to show you how a cult trys to make you feel worthless when you leave, that you have condemed your soul to a life of misery in hell and that you now follow the dark side.

Can you imagine if this were said to an unstable person? Exactly. This is why some cults are so wrong in what they do and how even when members have left they try to manipulate them with FEAR.

I actually e mailed a friend with this information and jokingly said well if my aura is now red Im going to have to get a totally new wardrobe as its all just going to clash! Good job I can see the funny side of it this time, but this is the reason why its so hard to break free, we dont want to be condemed to the dark side. No body does do they.

posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 02:35 PM
reply to post by Mr Green

Now some on this thread will understand the true horror and meaning of what it is to be condemed to a dominant aura colour of red. It basically means my soul has been condemed to hell, actually to the levels below hell to absolute hell infact.

Nails of words

To pin you down in awe...

Everything works like Tesla dynamo/machine. Opposition creates difference in potential.

Man - God = infinite difference in potential.
That is the space/time continuum one gets dissolved into, and as long as one looks for the "end" of it along the infinite radius of such universe, hshe gets sucked into the aporia (fractal nature of the "reality").

Nama/rupa (thought/body) as opposed to the metaphysical (nirvana, force).

One must step out of the magical circle.

Perception and thought are imposed on us to enslave us - the Mirror. Break the mirror!

Science, Theory of evolution, Theory of relativity - the strongest curse of modern humans. Real nails to pin man onto the cross and bleed him to death.

[edit on 8-3-2009 by DangerDeath]

posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 02:37 PM
Just about everybody has had an essay to write about Lord Of The Flies.
The Conch Shell Authority Speaking Tool. A Group of boys stranded on an Island .
A Situtation where a cult would evolve naturaly and not be forced.
The Juvenile mind would actively seek out the cult model out of insecurity and dependency.

So are some cults right for the situation at the time .
A cult when the enviroment is harsh can be a comfort.
A cult when the enviroment is good but the individual has a troubled lost mind living in that good enviroment ,can also be a comfort.
A Cult forms out of survival for the person or the group.
The Cult Leader knows this and enjoys the power that is produced from this.

posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 02:45 PM
reply to post by SS,Naga

A lot that you write is cutting through the fog and lighting me up to other ideas on WHY.
Keep it annonymous or "They" might pay you a visit and tell you nicely to keep quiet.

The first time I read yourself and Danger death for the first 5 minutes I am sort of

posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 02:52 PM
reply to post by headlightone

The road is dusty, roofs are cockeyed

Now you are on God’s side

You are in Eden, fig’s leaves all around.
You run away from trees, forest burns.
And twigs and shades, tearing at dawn.
Elements are too rough, force lures to liturgy.
Believers chew chips.
They are foreigners, song is sad.
You will go into dusk, into the makeshift nest.
Wet spiders glide on rain.
Escaped from eggs, dandy fireflies.
How will he kill you, the God who falls?
He walks through shards, what is his longing?
Flower opens, gene is yellow.
Dark strawberries, sticky milk.
Dust presses into soles.
Cat will bring field mouse.
Mouse will be dead.
It will not arise.
Sky is gray, it’s just dawn.
Colors have no meaning.
Quiet catbird.

posted on Mar, 8 2009 @ 03:01 PM

Originally posted by DangerDeath
reply to [url=
Nails of words

To pin you down in awe...

Exactly. good job I see it for what it is, hocus pocus mumbo jumbo

Im not a fallen elder, for to become a fallen elder I would have to have been an elder of some sorts. Again more hocus pocus! There are no elders in this, we are what we are, we are who we are, and an elder we certainly arnt.

This is another trait of cults, they seem to rename people as far out space age beings , as beings of immense power and enlightenment. For me enlightenment does not have a name tag to go with it, we dont need to be called space elders to progress spiritually.

Im sure scientology has a similar name for its followers, is it thetans or something like that, or is it the thetans they are having a space war with I can never remember.

If a group tries to give you a new name, dont let them, its removal of self.

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