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I found the problem of 9/11 unbelievers !

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posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 05:12 PM
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reply to post by Swampfox46_1999
 


Not quite what happened, but you will never accept the truth anyway.


It is exactly what happened, unless you care to elaborate that is not what happened, furthmore, you do not know what I believe in.


We told you how the WTC came down, we paid NIST to tell you how, just read their reports, it clearly states that firer alone brought the buildings down( with such speed) but who would have ever imagine an airplane bringing down, two of the tallest buildings in the world, no one said the government

Again, not quite, and again, you wont ever accept the fact that ANY investigation into the collapses is going to be an educated GUESS.


So, you are saying NIST did not write in their report that firers brought the WTC down.
Again you keep attacking what I will not accept, or accept my beliefs are not important when I am given you facts.



No, please to ask more questions about the penthouse. The penthouse is the best indication of an internal support failure prior to the buildings collapse.


Would you care to elaborate on that, if this is your “opinion” please say so, if not why don’t you demonstrate what had happened to the Penthouse.



please ignore those firemen, and police officers, and fist responders, and medics, who said they saw and heard explosions,

No, they werent ignored. Explosions, do not indicate explosives, any fireman who has responded to a building fire like we saw on 9/11 knows that.


They saw, and heard, “explosions,” they where there at the WTC, YOU where not. Furthermore, I NEVER said they where ignored, (I said please ignore) you do not read very well do you.



Hani Hanjour. Reported to have 600TT and a Commercial Certificate, Hani tried to get checked out in a 172 a few weeks prior at Freeway Airport in MD. Two seperate CFI's took Hani up to check him out. Baxter and Conner found that Hani had trouble controlling and landing a cessna 172 at 65 knots. Bernard, the Chief CFI, refused to rent him the cessna 172. How anyone could not control a 172 at 600TT and a Commercial is beyond me

Oh really?


Ya really, and that is a fact, unless you care to disprove my statement.

So, he had a commercial pilots license AND an instructor who had no problems renting an aircraft to him, that definitely sounds like he is a terrible pilot.....not to mention during the cert flight, Hani used landmark navigation (gee I wonder why that would come in handy)


Your logic is wrong, and again you do not read very well, or you are having a problem understanding the information, I wrote that, (Bernard, the Chief CFI, refused to rent him the cessna 172.)

Swampfox46_1999, why the constant insults on my information, if I am so wrong about everything ,why don’t you demonstrate with facts, and sources that I am wrong, instead of throwing out your ridiculous opinions. I am sorry the truth is upsetting to you; maybe you should spend more time learning about both sides of the 911 story instead of one side.( the government side)




posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 05:35 PM
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The NIST did not say that fires were the single cause,
They said that fires contributed to the weakening of the steal beams supporting a a structure that had already been weakened by the impact and subsequent explosion of the air planes that hit them.

Now for your penthouse.

The penthouse; ALL of the pictures I have seen that supposedly point to this colapsing first are the same two.


But lets talk about that, do you know the way the building was constructed?

Obvisouly not. WTC7 was originally designed to have a much smaller foot print (this information is on record) when they expanded the building they did not expand the central support system.

As such the internal support beams did not extend out to the full extent of the building.
The penthouse was sitting on the top of these it was not part of them. SO when beam (I think it was 97) gave way it dropped support for the whole left corner of the penthouse. now... take a building and drop a corner you will loose the building.

The penthouse was further subjected to the fact that the entire roof slab collapsed into itself Guess what, the penthouse was again on top of that, so when beam 97 gave in causing the roof slab to collapse the penthouse went, and yes it went first.

Controlled Demo of a building, it took 4,118 seperate charges and over 36,000 feet of detcord

How Stuff Works

Now in the "how Stuff works pay carefull attention, it says that you remove support from a section and the rest topples down

This means that the weakend floors (where the planes hit) gave way and the rest fell down on itself.

If you watch the towers collapse they begin with the upper floors falling down over the damged floors.

WTC7 falls down around the damaged colum number 97 (I am using 97 from memory it might have been a different numbered colum in the support structure)

This is all established engineering and demolition science.


[edit on 14-3-2009 by Achorwrath]



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 06:35 PM
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reply to post by Achorwrath
 



So who to believe? Some new person to the thread, that has no credentials, shows up when there is a 9/11 thread, tries to debunk, and is arrogant, insulting and condescending to members....

or these guys

www.patriotsquestion911.com...


[edit on 14-3-2009 by whaaa]



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 07:08 PM
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Originally posted by whaaa
reply to post by Achorwrath
 



So who to believe? Some new person to the thread, that has no credentials, shows up when there is a 9/11 thread, tries to debunk, and is arrogant, insulting and condescending to members....

or these guys

www.patriotsquestion911.com...


[edit on 14-3-2009 by whaaa]


Anyone looking at that list will get a good laugh,
660+ Engineers their list is more like 300+ and it is littered with people that have NOTHING to do with construction or engineering there are designers, bank consultants, software programmers.

As with many that doubt the physical evidence they are not applying accepted scientific method nor are they taking into account all information.

For example, an achitect desgns a building but the designs are reviewed by structural engineers before being built this usually causes revisions in design to account for errors by the achitect.

Achitects are not demolitions specialists they do not know how to blow up a building, set a fuse or line charge. they are therefore unqulified to speculate about something like that.

Any speculation on their part is opinion.

Attacking me personally is a desperate act; I have not attacked anyone and have only brought up engineering. physics, and demolition science into play.

I have been a combat engineer and speciallized in non standard muntions and structure demolitiion (we blew up buildings and stuff) firefighter, studied achitecture, and also worked in both intelligence and coutner/intelligence shops working with everything from Humand to Photographic to Satellite intelligence.

you can doubt me all you want but it will still not repalce the facts.

I also did not realize that my lack of time on the board made my experience and knowledge void.

If this is the case can you tell me the user names and board membership of each of the people on that list so I can verify their cedibility?


[edit on 14-3-2009 by Achorwrath]



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 08:05 PM
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reply to post by Achorwrath
 


This is only your “opinion,” nothing more, and you are not an authority, or expert, to what had happened to the WTC. I only mention a statement that was in the NIST report nothing more, so what’s with all the attitude towards me, eh?


As with many that doubt the physical evidence they are not applying accepted scientific method nor are they taking into account all information.


Really, and YOU have all the scientific evidences that’s proves everyone is wrong.
Well if that’s the case then, lets see it, and don’t waste your time presenting NIST ridiculous one sided report, because it does not stand up to real science which has already been proven. So, what do you have, that stands up to sciences, and everyone has excepted it, and has been peer reviewed. and has been excepted into the journal of science.


660+ Engineers


Ya, 600+ Engineers have put their jobs and reputations on the line, to get the real truth out, because the government, and NIST have covered up the real truth to what happened to the WTC. 600+ Engineers are not buying the NIST lying report and if you feel that these 600+ Engineers are all wrong then why don’t you demonstrated to why, and how with real science, and show your sources.


Achitects are not demolitions specialists they do not know how to blow up a building, set a fuse or line charge. they are therefore unqulified to speculate about something like that.


I disagree with you on this one, however, Architectures can read and understand NIST phony reports, and have spotted where NIST has made up phony sciences to explain the collapse of the WTC, or should I say demolition of all three WTC. These Engineers have petition Congress for a new investigation into the demise of the WTC, and NIST has been approach about their phony reports, by some of the best experts in Engineering andhave been told that their (NIST) report does not stand up to creditably science, and you know that. So why do you want to support a lie.


you can doubt me all you want but it will still not repalce the facts.


I do doubt you, and you have NOT replaced the facts.



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 09:07 PM
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I have not stated opinion,
I stated and provided links to how buildings are demolished with controlled explosives.

Please show me how the government hid all the Detonating Cord and Explovises that would have to have been in place to drop that building?

I showed you where a professional controlled demolition company needed over 30,000 feet of det cord for a 32 story building
Then I showed you how, due to the circumstances in effect on the WTC (tower 1 and 2 and 7) their collapse was consistant with what was happening to them

Remember they were using construction methods from the 60s and 70s several revolutionary and new techniques were used including the use of box steel beams instead of the usual I Beams that most consruction used up to that point.

Again lets let physics point the way,

Both WTC towers were 110 Storeis at an estimated total wieght of 500,000 Tons.
Tower 1 was hit between 93-101 that is 8 floors of cross impact there was bound to be some damage to the structure. True, the building had been designed to withstand the impact of a 707 without failure.
(this is verrified by looking at the crash considerations adendum to the WTC information.)
What they overlooked was a crash involving multiple floors. It was always assumed that any crash would be a head on level impact. (again read the data in the adendum it can be found online)

So you now have 8 flors that have lost at least some of the outer structure. (the plane went through them.)

JP5 burns at 495.5 degrees in open air, if you mixe other acceleants (hydraulic fluid, oxygen) you can increase that dramatically. Aluminum is a super conductor and if it cannot dissapate its heat it retains it, steel does this also. According to reports from people that escaped the building there was mangled and exposed steel, this means that it was no longer protected by its thermal protection coating (another item the original builders did not plan for.

Now after several hours in a fire even the strongest steel will begin to weaken. If you do not believe me put a hammer in a wood fire (wood burns at about 250-300f) and let it sit, it will eventually glow red hot and become soft. The Japanese used nothing but wood fires to create their weapons from steel.

The fire suppression systems failed completely also this prevented any hope of extinguishing the fires.

Now lets add something else into this, Aluminum is a primary component of thermite, Airplanes are made (usually of Aluminum Alloys, these alloys contain Titanium and Magnesium, Titanium and Magnesium are also components of Thermite.
Yes Normally Thermite is Powdered aluminum but as aluminum gets hotter it breaks down and oxidizes. Magnesium can be easily ignited in dust or chip form. It is possible (although there is limited evidence for this aside from the reports of metal pellets reported) that the remians of the plane ignited.

Airplane fires have been known to reach 3000F due to this happening, and in some cases completely melting and destroying the plane. If this happened it would have imeadiately finished compromising the structure of the building.

once the upper floors gave way gravity would have taken over,

500,000 tons total wieght;

figure 20-25% is in the bottom floors for foundtaion etc (500,000*25%=125,000)
Leaving 375,000 tons / 110 floors= 3409 Tons per floor. ( this is a guestimate, although I am sure a better estimate of the per floor weight can be found to cooberate my calculation)

Take the upper floors from 93 (17) 17*3409 = 57,953 tons of material dropping down onto the rest of the building.

I am pretty sure that they original designers never intended nor planned for that.



[edit on 14-3-2009 by Achorwrath]



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 09:19 PM
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Originally posted by Achorwrath

you can doubt me all you want but it will still not repalce the facts.

I also did not realize that my lack of time on the board made my experience and knowledge void.



Anyone can claim any expertise, education, talent, or physical attribute on the www. and that doesn't mean they have any experience or knowledge or anything other than plain old BS.

So I do doubt you because you don't have the facts anymore than anyone else. I feel that you have an ideology that worships authority and believes any BS your chosen leaders tell you.

I on the other hand have an open mind and solid evidence can make a difference in my beliefs. So far the official story on 911 is a joke.

Anyway, check this out...www.abovetopsecret.com...'
You got your work cut out for you!!

and while you are at it....this one too!www.abovetopsecret.com...






[edit on 14-3-2009 by whaaa]



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 09:42 PM
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reply to post by WonderwomanUSA
 


No, Osama did not infiltrate our air defense system. I guess I should have said that your post shows that you do not know the first thing about the subject. You state that they flew around for a whole hour and never got shot down..which I will grant is true, however you use it as if it indicates some super secret conspiracy. Which it was not. It was simply more proof that our elected officials were morons when they took advantage of the "Peace Dividend" in the early 90s and castrated our air defense network.




So, you are saying NIST did not write in their report that firers brought the WTC down.


Im saying that it said it was more than just the fires that brought down the towers. I am also saying that any person that puts blind faith into any report that claims to be an exact investigation, is a fool.

No one, not NIST, not Steven Jones, Alex Jones, etc will ever know the exact chain of events that caused the collapses. To have a report such as that, all three buildings would have needed to be wired with sensors and cameras to show the events. Therefore, ANY report is going to be at best, an educated guess.




Would you care to elaborate on that, if this is your “opinion” please say so, if not why don’t you demonstrate what had happened to the Penthouse.


It would be an educated guess (as mentioned before). To elaborate, the video evidence shows the penthouse collapsing first in an area that would be almost directly over the gouge in WTC7 created by the collapse of WTC1. Many of the firefighters you mention are the reason that we know of the damage suffered by WTC7. Now, the collapse of the penthouse would indicate that the interior beams supporting it had failed. It would also be noted that the collapse seemed to occur around this area of the building leading to the tilt/twist of WTC 7 as it collapsed. But then, as once again, there will never be a definitive answer as to how exactly the collapse occured, my opinion, like the NIST report will be an educated guess, and in the absence of ANY evidence to the contrary, the most likely explanation.




They saw, and heard, “explosions,” they where there at the WTC, YOU where not.


You are right, I was not there that day. However, I would suggest that you seem to have some difficulty when it comes to reading comprehension. I did not say they did not hear explosions, I said that hearing an explosion does not mean there was a bomb. As it has been pointed out dozens of times on ATS (and elsewhere) there are literally dozens of items in a modern office building that will explode when exposed to heat/fire. Ever hear an aerosol can explode? or maybe a pound of C-4 explosive explode? I have, and they sound identical. So, I have no doubt there were quite a few explosions heard that day, but they werent demolition charges. They were cans of air fresheners, furniture polish, floor wax, first aid oxygen tanks, gas pockets from severed gas lines, etc NOT bombs.




Ya really, and that is a fact, unless you care to disprove my statement.


To do that, I would have to know which conspiracy site you found it on. Because I already presented a flight instructor who could and DID rent Hani Hanjour an airplane two and a half weeks prior to 9/11/01.




Swampfox46_1999, why the constant insults on my information


Because your "information" shows a lack of critical thinking skills and a blind acceptance due to an appearent hatred of the United States government.



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 10:06 PM
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Originally posted by whaaa

Originally posted by Achorwrath

you can doubt me all you want but it will still not repalce the facts.

I also did not realize that my lack of time on the board made my experience and knowledge void.



Anyone can claim any expertise, education, talent, or physical attribute on the www. and that doesn't mean they have any experience or knowledge or anything other than plain old BS.

So I do doubt you because you don't have the facts anymore than anyone else. I feel that you have an ideology that worships authority and believes any BS your chosen leaders tell you.

I on the other hand have an open mind and solid evidence can make a difference in my beliefs. So far the official story on 911 is a joke.

Anyway, check this out...www.abovetopsecret.com...'
You got your work cut out for you!!

and while you are at it....this one too!www.abovetopsecret.com...






[edit on 14-3-2009 by whaaa]


Ah more personal attacks,
Now I worship authority,... my how well you know me.

You know in court when one side cannot refute the actual evidence presented they attack the person, it is a weak and desperate last resort.

As for your two linked posts, well I will get to them when I have time.

You are breaking rule #1 of your 2nd link, as well as actually doing warning sign #5

I have not deviated from the actual topic of the thread. I have presented evidence and theory based on the available facts and the laws of Physics and Engineering.

You have poitned others away from those facts by name calling, insinuating I have an alerior motive and calling my lack of time on the board as proof of a lack of experience.

Before you posts links to pull people away from the actual topic and theories at hand make sure you read them.

It is not uncommon for people to search for answers, our government is inept at cooperating, paronoid when they feel threatened and often withhold ALL evidence when even releasing part or parts quicky, would satisfy many.

This type of behavoir makes people dis-trust the government; But it has the side effect of when they do release information after a long period of silence no one wants to believe it.


[edit on 14-3-2009 by Achorwrath]



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 10:16 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 10:39 PM
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Originally posted by Achorwrath




It is not uncommon for people to search for answers, our government is inept at cooperating, paronoid when they feel threatened and often withhold ALL evidence when even releasing part or parts quicky, would satisfy many.

This type of behavoir makes people dis-trust the government; But it has the side effect of when they do release information after a long period of silence no one wants to believe it.




But you forgot to mention one thing why people distrust governments.

THEY LIE

So is it so hard to understand, that when anyone defends liars, they in turn are viewed as liars?



[edit on 14-3-2009 by whaaa]



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 10:44 PM
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reply to post by Swampfox46_1999
 



Because your "information" shows a lack of critical thinking skills and a blind acceptance due to an appearent hatred of the United States government.


I love my Country, and I do NOT hate my government, and I will fight for my County however, I feel that I have been lied to by my government and I hate that.

I apologize to you, if my opinions of the truth, which seems offends you some how, however, your comment to me is one of the most hatful lie, that I have ever encountered on ATS and I am offended. As far as my critical thinking goes, I think most people will agree I am right on target.



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 10:50 PM
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I think we are all getting away from the topic at hand.

This issue we are debating is the phyics of the collapse and the ability of the accused hijackers to pull this off.

I have posted my theory based on physics and the known information.

I am not blindly accepting anything but have put what I know about construction and more to the point demolition and firefighting to work,



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 11:15 PM
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I FOUND the problem of 9/ 11 unbelievers!

This has become a mudsling fest and I am not going to precipitate in any more of it. I have said how I feel about 911 and I have used the best facts in my presentation that are available to the public. Obviously, there are those that displace a lot of hate, and anger in these 911 threads. One only needs to read to see who is being disingenuous.



posted on Mar, 14 2009 @ 11:20 PM
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reply to post by WonderwomanUSA
 


And most Americans thought Barack Obama was the Savior....look how well that is turning out so far. Do I sound hateful? Perhaps.

More likely, it is a continued buildup of disgust I feel towards people that come on here and spew "I used to believe the official story..but then I (listened to Alex Jones, heard Kevin Ryan, watched Loose Change etc) and now think the government is lying." Which they do...in the absence of any actual evidence. They repeat retracted stories from the BBC and the AP, or quote from Al Jazeera, or somehow believe that in the chaos of that day the media got everything right the first time (which would be a first)...ANYTHING they can do that would absolve them of accepting the truth......that Osama Bin Laden took the time and effort to create a plan designed to take advantage of our weakness and hurt us badly.

They willingly ignore more than 30 years of Muslim extremist attacks on the US and its citizens to believe that it was a group of "neocons" wanting a "Pearl Harbor" event to take control.....without understanding that the "Pearl Harbor" statement referred to the fact that the United States would never spend the money to retool the US military from a Cold War military to a military more suited for low intensity, counter insurgency type warfare we were likely to face in the future.

So yes, I do get angry....with good reason.



posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 12:55 AM
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reply to post by Swampfox46_1999
 


You are welcome to your own “opinions” which it is, but I don’t see what that’s has to do with I FOUND the problem of 9/11 unbelievers!

I have never read any one in here including me, who supports or (listened to Alex Jones, heard Kevin Ryan, watched Loose Change etc)


in the absence of any actual evidence.


Like the OS, which is nothing but a lack of nothing, but a pack of lies, we who do not believe in the OS, do not have to be bleeding harts, Alex Jones, or Kevin Ryan, or watched Loose Change supporters as you claim. To know when we are being lied too we don’t support those people and you know that. This is yet another attempt to insult the truth movement, or anyone who dares to have a different opinion than you.


They repeat retracted stories from the BBC and the AP, or quote from Al Jazeera, or somehow believe that in the chaos of that day the media got everything right the first time


It really does not matter what people believe in we have a right to believe in what we want, however, don’t be so quick to judge everyone in here just because YOU don’t like what they believe in. Who made you, the authority of 911?


ANYTHING they can do that would absolve them of accepting the truth......that Osama Bin Laden took the time and effort to create a plan designed to take advantage of our weakness and hurt us badly.


What? I do recall before WTC 7 exploded into dust that the media, and most TV News station, made that claim, which is all-American heard on the propaganda talking heads News machines that you call honest News.


They willingly ignore more than 30 years of Muslim extremist attacks on the US


Really we where only attack once, and that was on 911, furthmore, your information that you read on those 911 debunking sites, which contain nothing but yellow journalism, and disinformation which has no place in my research, or my beliefs. Your lousy attempt to say Muslim extremist did 911 is a laughable joke it has already been proven that none of these highjackers where Muslim, infact they didn’t come from the country that WE attack for doing 911, and that is a fact. This goes to show that you have not done much research on the subject of 911, had you done just a little bite of research, then you would have not made such a ridiculous statement.


its citizens to believe that it was a group of "neocons" wanting a "Pearl Harbor"


It sure looks like they did, they the Republicans did nothing but lie, they lied about 911, they lied us into a war, (WMD) they lied about the torture, they lied about the missing emails, they lied about OBL, they lied about spying on the American people, they lied about so much stuff that they destroyed all their pubic records before leavening office, so the Democrats couldn’t hold them accountable for their disloyalty to this country. What they did, made Richard Nixon look like a walk in the park, compared to the Bush administration. I know most people believe that, that is why the Democrats won the Election, because most people where sick of the lies, and the Republicans corruption, they wanted a change, and they wanted answers to the pass eight years of nothing but cover-ups, and secrecy, and wasteful spending.


So yes, I do get angry....with good reason.


Yes, so do I, and everyone else is as well, it all depends where you get your information from doesn’t it.



posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 07:29 AM
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Wonderwoman, The WTC was bombed in 1993, there have been others but that is attack number 2.

The US and the WTC represents the crown jewel of the infidels to the extremest in the muslum population.

Muslums as a whol do not believe in this type of aggressive violence in fact the Quaran teaches peace not violence.

One of the planners (I think it was Abdul Rahman Yasin) of the attack when shown the still standing building was quoted as saying "If I had had more money it would not be standing"

His plan (that he confessed to) was to detonate a bomb (1,500LBs) in the garrage under tower one in a way to cause it to fall into tower 2 and bring them both down.

He underetimated the strength of the foundation supports and the the layout of the garrage also helped to channel much of the fource of the blast out into open air.

The second attack on the towers was more carefully planned, better executed and according to the investigation intelligence on it was gathered over years.



posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 07:37 AM
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posted by whaaa
reply to post by Achorwrath
 



So who to believe? Some new person to the thread, that has no credentials, shows up when there is a 9/11 thread, tries to debunk, and is arrogant, insulting and condescending to members....

or these guys

www.patriotsquestion911.com...


posted by Achorwrath

Anyone looking at that list will get a good laugh,
660+ Engineers their list is more like 300+ and it is littered with people that have NOTHING to do with construction or engineering there are designers, bank consultants, software programmers.


And then anybody looking at your credentials will get an even bigger laugh.

A faith-based government loyalist set of credentials is not very reassuring is it?

The 9-11 OFFICIAL STORY is dead dead dead.



posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 07:43 AM
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posted by Achorwrath

Wonderwoman, The WTC was bombed in 1993, there have been others but that is attack number 2.



And the wonderful FBI was in the middle of that one too; even providing the 'terrorists' with the explosives. If the FBI wasn't so incompetent, they would have toppled that tower into the other tower, murdering tens of thousands of innocent people. But the FBI came back with a zest for WTC #2 and the Pentagon simulation; living up to the expectations of that political hack in a dress, J Edgar Hoover, didn't they?

Curse that daggone asset who taped all his meetings with the corrupt FBI.




The 9-11 OFFICIAL STORY is dead dead dead.




[edit on 3/15/09 by SPreston]



posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 09:01 AM
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Originally posted by SPreston

posted by Achorwrath

Wonderwoman, The WTC was bombed in 1993, there have been others but that is attack number 2.



And the wonderful FBI was in the middle of that one too; even providing the 'terrorists' with the explosives. If the FBI wasn't so incompetent, they would have toppled that tower into the other tower, murdering tens of thousands of innocent people. But the FBI came back with a zest for WTC #2 and the Pentagon simulation; living up to the expectations of that political hack in a dress, J Edgar Hoover, didn't they?

Curse that daggone asset who taped all his meetings with the corrupt FBI.




The 9-11 OFFICIAL STORY is dead dead dead.




[edit on 3/15/09 by SPreston]


once again, you have failed to even mention the evidence I presented.

You have attacked me personally, something I have not done to anyone.

Again, I have provided information based on Physics, Engineering, Demolitions.



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