But there is atleast 1 observer. Sure it may be there, but there will be nothing there to witness it, nothing there to understand it and so on.
Without consciousness abilities such as reason and understanding just aren't possible. In the end, god is the only observer, yourself included.
Without the scientist and consciousness of the scientist, there is no science and there is no understanding of science.
LOL thats funny, I mention that it doesn't take consciousness to observe, and you go off on Artificial Intelligence.
I'm sure you don't think mice are conscious beings... but they not only have the ability to observe, they have the ability to learn from those
That is because trying to design and create actual intelligence is how I came to alot of my understanding. I've actually sat down and pondered the
logic behind things for years. I use to be like you. In the end I realized it was nothing more than exactly what I say, a bunch of patterns
following predetermined logic with no actual understanding of consciousness of the events taking place. No more consciousness than the moon which
circles the earth based on the laws of Physics is.
I had to ask myself really difficult questions and find the logic behind it. For example, how does one determine what is true and what to believe?
Do we take majority opinion? Do we put weight into certain people in our lives and base our truth off this? How about what can be proven? But how
is this bundle of logic to understand it is proven in the first place? Basically, the AI has no way of understanding, and so it is only capable of
repeating what it comes in contact with. Which is no different than any other fool on this earth, and hardly a sign of intelligence.
You are going off what other people have learned. I am going off what I have learned from my own experience.
Says you? right? apologetics at its best. Invent gods to fit the new realms science shows you. what happened to the 10th dimensional god? is he
Pure consciousness has no physical being? than how did he walk with moses?
Says me - for me. See the thing is, you think I am just accepting what I've been told or read. But in reality, these things I speak of aren't
beliefs for me. I understand you don't believe me, and I don't expect you to. But it is hardly apologetic. The thing about understandings is
you have to get them yourself.
Pure consciousness has no physical being, but obviously it does occupy vessels/people. Consciousness is the thinker, creation/logic is the
But you do not realize the difference between patterns running based on the logic given, and the actual ability to understand and observe.
That which is not conscious is unable to learn new logic.
What does this have to do with the scientific method? are you just talking jibberish now?
In the middle ages there was the black plague... The people at the time didn't understand it, thus, they said god was punishing them...
now, we know what caused it, how it was transmitted, and have in fact narrowed down that the plague entered Europe from a port in Italy, aboard a ship
that came from Asia...
If you don't incorperate the new knowledge into your data set... you end up with "god dun it"...
in 2000 years, Christianity in particular, has refused to add new data to their data set... in the situations where it was impossible to ignore the
new data, they change the definitions of parts of their religion... or start claiming it was all symbolic and figurative.
I'm not a Christian, I actually understand and follow Jesus. Christianity is the false religion Jesus warned about. You might actually know this
is you actually understood what Jesus was saying, rather than looking at how people who do things in his name act and say. You aren't getting your
own understanding, every argument you make is towards Christianity and what they do or say.
As for new knowledge, I had your perspective years ago, made the same argument years ago and so on. My opinion is based on new knowledge. To put it
simple, you just do not understand consciousness and soul. And as I said before, if you don't and can't realize it then it is pointless to even
talk to you.
We've been through this before. We can recognize the chemical interactions in the brain, and watch thought happening on a screen... science will
eventually completely map the mind... and will be able to show you exactly what you're saying consciousness is...
Oh, now who's putting faith in things? Science will eventually
map the mind? Even if such is true, you are only mapping the images and
thought within the brain, consciousness is the part that actually observes and feels these things. It's no different than what I said about
psychology earlier, it is nothing more than what? Pattern recognition. It has nothing to do with actual consciousness.
They already have video game controls that you wear on your head... you interface with the game via pure thought... now that is reading consciousness
fairly well I would think.
No, that is called reading brain waves. Those are the things that bring things to consciousness, not actual consciousness itself.
The fact that you decide to assign some sort of divine attribute to conciousness and the fact that you have absolutely no understanding of what it is
(scientifically) does NOT mean that it is truely divine in nature... this is just using "god" to explain the unexplainable... and isn't a real
I don't assign divinity to it, I just realize and understand it is seperate of creation. No matter what you say, there is no logic that can create
consciousness. No chemicals that combine to magically create consciousness.
But what you fail to understand is that consciousness is not part of the creation.
Has to be because you've discribed god as pure consciousness... and he said "let us create man in our own image". This was the rationality you
used when explaining why god isn't "man shaped".
Nifty little contradiction you have going there.
In his image is consciousness. God is man shapped when in the form of the son(you). Of course, this is just a physical vessel and not truly the
LOL classic! If I don't agree with you, something must be wrong with my thinking, and I'm somehow inferior to you...
This is actually a pretty common christian response... and you wonder why other religions despise christianity.
Again, I'm not Christian. This is a topic about god. I do not carry an overall good opinion of Christianity or the church. But I do know god, and
I do see the truth in the bible, but if you understand the truth then you will not like the church or organized religion.
And btw, you have not presented a single argument that I have not thought of or made myself in the past. I've already had your perspective, and so
I know it's wrong based on my own experiences. For some reason you seem to believe that anyone who believes in god was brainwashed into it.
Where are these magical molecules that have consciousness in them? You see yourself as being flesh and see yourself as machine. And yes,
your body is from the dust of the earth, it is from the creation and it is a machine. But you are the driver, and if you can't understand that,
then you will never understand me.
I've said this before... you're the one saying you have all the answers... (especially with the whole consciousness thing) Not me... I say its
foolish to make the leap... and will instead wait for science to run its course...
There's no shame in admitting that you don't understand something. For some reason, believers have to attribute misunderstanding to "god"
Because you yourself have not experienced or know something doesn't mean nobody else has either. What you lack you also deny in others. You keep
on assuming I'm just repeating the bible, it's getting pretty old and insulting to be honest.
So we will not find agreement as long as you associate yourself as being flesh rather than soul/consciousness.
Oh we could agree, if science someday finds facts supporting your myths, I'll add that to my data set, and re-evaluate my positions.
Just another authority believing person. Same as all those Christians you point fingers at. Are you incapable of original thought? Incapable of
discovering things on your own? Incapable of forming your own understanding?
But please tell me, to what are the electrical signals in your brain presenting this reality to?
Other chemicals and electrical impluses in your brain... interperited by receptors. You're starting to assign value to something because its a warm
Ok, so how do the receptors of these chemicals and waves present the reality we see? Are you saying the receptors are consciousness?
How does an electrical signal become the image you see? If it goes from light to the eyes, converted into electrical signals which go to the
back of the brain, to what is that image presented to?
Optical receptors in the area of the brain that controls vision
Vision to what? To what are the receptors receiving signals for? Are these not things that produce the feelings, not what actually feels?
But it's just receptors feeding receptors? And from this we get reality?
Also having to split up posts.
[edit on 19-2-2009 by badmedia]