Vatican attacks US abortion move

Originally posted by Annee
Let's see. Women who choose abortion are murderers. Women who choose to keep the baby are ruining some young man's life by making him pay hundreds/thousands of dollars a month he could use for himself and his life. These men want the right to force the woman carrying their child to abort - - again making the woman a murderer for killing her own unborn child. The man of course gets off scot free - - because no "living" thing was living in their body.

Yep! I got it - - its crystal clear.

Not the point....

You are stuck like a broken record...hehe


Here is the BIG CLUE....


They are both responsible for their actions. Wow, what a concept! This means the baby should not be the one who suffers for poor choices by both parents.

Every moment of your life you have been responsible for you actions good or bad, but in this one case you’re not at the cost of a life....

This is not whether the dad or mom are good or bad, it is the cost of not accepting responsibility, and because of ill responsible mothers and deadbeat dads we find it convenient to kill the child instead of holding them accountable for their actions.

Is there not a better way than to abort a life?

[edit on 1-2-2009 by Xtrozero]

reply to post by TasteTheMagick


1)What do you mean by sentient?
Some say that a living creature that can touch,see,feel etc is sentient.
It doesn't have to have the ability to choose.
Some forms of mental illnesses effect people in such a way that they are unable to choose.

2)The mother is the only sentient being huh?
So the father doesn't get a say?

3)An endoparasite spends all its life feeding off another.That is what it was 'born' to do.A baby lives and grows in order to be born and to live outside of the body.

4)So poverty means abortion is the only option for a woman?
What about having the baby and giving it up for adoption?


[edit on 1-2-2009 by DantesLost]

I'm getting bored now.

I lived it in real life. Nothing I've said can be attributed to "lip service".

reply to post by TasteTheMagick

No, once again...the man can not decide what to do with a fetus...that is the property of the mother. The man is responsible if this fetus becomes an actual, fully developed person that can live without being attached to the mother. After it is born, the child is the responsibility of the parents...before, being attached to the mother's uterus, it is only hers.

If there is a heartbeat there is life.
And that life has been created by the mother and the father.To suggest that it is only the mothers is an insult to the father.

If you think the father has no choice in killing the life he helped create,then how the hell can you even say that he has a responsability after the baby is born?

You strip him of his rights in one breath and then force them back in another.

I am pro choice !

Choose to keep your pants on so we don't have to pay for your mistakes!

I'm upset because my right to choose against abortion is being violated by my tax dollars being diverted to pay for abortion. I demand my right to choose to say no to legalized infanticide in the name of convenience.

reply to post by donwhite


This whole post made absolutely no sense to me. Please explain where you are headed with this, so I can understand.

The Vatican has always been a malicious dictatorial institution.. but I think that
when they helped all those nazis escape into safety, they lost any credibility
they might have had left. It should be pretty clear now that the Vatican is an
inhumane, cruel, malicious and evil institution, bent on creating as much pain
and misery on this planet as possible.

If ANYONE still thinks the Vatican should be listened to, they SERIOUSLY need
to check up on its history and stop living in ignorance. Not that I'm saying you
are a bad person, but you have to educate yourself.. because if you listen to
anything the Vatican says, you might end up making extremely bad choices.

Originally posted by Wehali

If ANYONE still thinks the Vatican should be listened to, they SERIOUSLY need to check up on its history and stop living in ignorance.

Well if I was catholic… If you are not then I don't think it is an issue, but I can't say I have heard a lot of bad advice from them.

Originally posted by Terapin
West Coast, are you willing to adopt a crack baby? Seriously.

So many of the religious zealots, anti freedom of choice crowd, talk about the adoption option, yet so few are willing to adopt ANY baby. The number of orphans in the world is horrendous. Before anyone talks about the adoption option, they must insure it is a real option, as it clearly has not worked. A meaningless option is no option at all. It is just a smoke screen for religious oppression.

As I said earlier, I am not pro abortion, no one is, but I am for allowing the individual involved to make her own decision without outside meddling in her rights. That makes me pro choice, not pro abortion and there is a difference, even if the religious right wishes to try and cloud the issue.

*In the interest in disclosure, I have worked with orphans in the US, as well as abandoned children living in the streets overseas.

Lewis Black said the same thing; you don't see these anti-abortion Christians out adopting a bunch of crack babies...no that's something JESUS would have done!

Another was then why is gay marriage illegal? Who has less abortions than gay parents? You'd think they'd be natural allies!

[edit on 2-2-2009 by Darky6K]

reply to post by Christian Voice

This whole post made absolutely no sense to me. Please explain where you are headed with this, so I can understand.

Well, I thought it was sort of cute. A welcome variation from the typical "he says she says" theme we use on this thread. Just as no one can be half pregnant so no one here can be half for or half against the right of choice. Either you are or you aren't. For choice. Which those of us who are find those who are not to be nothing but intolerant. Anti choice types to us are like uninvited ill-mannered kibitzers. And childish, too. If not churlish! Must have it their way! Which would be better received if the anti-choice types would just admit that they have no intention of being tolerant. That they fully intend to impose their version of the truth on others by force of law. Like the old Inquisitors. That's what irritates us. As we like to pronounce, "If you don't believe in abortions, don't have one."

So I thought I'd try something different.


[edit on 2/2/2009 by donwhite]

reply to post by donwhite


I still do not understand why those that choose to live outside the norm expect everyone else to be tolerant and accepting of their lifestyle. Again I don't have to tolerate anything. The only thing I'll give you on that one is I believe those of us who do not agree must be civil about it.

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
reply to post by StevenDye

 

If that's the choice you want to make. Yes.
I think you're taking the situation I'm talking about a little bit out of proportion though. The children in YOUR situation are already their own sentient beings, they are not growing inside one of your organs.

EDIT: Yes she should. It's not murder because murder is illegal...look it up. I'm sick of anti-abortionists using the word murder without realizing exactly what it means. You're not a "human being in the womb", you are an undeveloped life form growing in someones uterus.



[edit on 1/25/09 by TasteTheMagick]

[edit on 1/25/09 by TasteTheMagick]

so true ives starred you.
it annoys me when people go on aboout the childs rights but not the woman.

also if the 'child' is born who looks after it who feeds it arent there enogh starving, unwanted and abused children.
what if the woman can not care for the child phycically or mentally because the child needs both and dont give the she shouldnt have sex then, because that makes me laugh out loud so the sperm isnt needed to create the fetus.

Well if u got raped maybe God wanted u to open ur eyes to him, and live for him, not for the world. And most likley a true Christian (not paganized like many are) wouldn't be in that type of situation or live in that kind of circumstance. But even if some one were raped, they shouldnt have an abortion.

wow im guessing your for the magnalene laundries as well you know girl get pregnant because of rape must be her fault because its not the mans send her to do hard labour until she gives birth then snatch the child off her and sell it for profit.
then tell her shes the sinner for the rest of her life while pretending it never happened.

Originally posted by VicSage
The problem with this issue is that there is no objective truth to what defines life.

Actually there is and each $120 biology text book per class for five years agrees with each other in what that specifically is and I've quoted it pages ago. The basic definition is taught in 5th grade science class.

I don't have to be Christian to know when a baby is being murdered, as many non-Christians have testified on this thread.

I don't have to be catholic to agree with the vatican on this issue. (in fact I'm not, but when they're right on an issue, they're right)

[edit on 2-2-2009 by saint4God]

reply to post by Darky6K

Lewis Black said the same thing; you don't see these anti-abortion Christians out adopting a bunch of crack babies...no that's something JESUS would have done!

I love Lewis Black!
And he's right.Its an argument I have used even though I am against abortion unless there are valid reasons for it.

So many don't even care about orphaned children,so many can't even put their hand in their pocket to help out those who care for these children and the children themselves.To many,as long as the baby is born,it can then be outta sight outta mind.

But that doesn't mean aborting the baby is better.It means something major has to be done to make things better for the mother/parents who will give up their baby,the baby itself,and those that care for them after the birth.


[edit on 2-2-2009 by DantesLost]

reply to post by Annee

The adoption "answer" again. Seriously naive. There are plenty of babies up for adoption. They just don't happen to be white. This is a fact - not a race issue. Do I even need to mention the Gay adoption issue?

Adoption. My immediate family has had THREE experiences with adoption. All went bad. What lesson? Adopt early, not late. Our adoptions were 4, 4 and 6 years old. It is highly Preferable to adopt in the first 60 days of the child's life. Even sooner if possible. In fact, it would be best to be standing in the delivery room and take the newborn from the mother and get the heck out of there. ASAP. IMO.

The worst experience we have, and it's on-going, is the cross racial divide. One relative being a good person at heart but as we now know, not all that smart about raising a child - contrary to popular wisdom mothering is not innate - has instead created a monster. It is racial. A black child in a white enclave. The smallish town was established as a refuge for whites escaping the justice of Brown v. Topeka, 1954. In a school of 300 students, there are 12 blacks and all of them are from black families but ours. The 11 blacks do not want her and the parents of the 288 whites do not want her. The whole family is under the care of either PhDs or MDs. And it's not getting better.

As for the issue of telling the child he or she is adopted, it is my opinion that is harmless. I would never volunteer it but I would never deny it. Do it only when the child asks. As for making contact with the biological parent, that must be up to the bio parent. Ideally it would be done only if the child wants to make contact and the bio parent reciprocates. In this area it really takes TWO to tango! But who said this world is ideal?

Didn’t you know? America is a racist society. I have often referred to South Carolina as Apartheid North. Proof? Go to Hilton Head Island. Look for the Mr Token and Ms Quota blacks. They are not there. Uh, and racism does not end in SC. It is ubiquitous if that is the right word.

Slavery hangs over America like an albatross. We seem to be incapable of getting over it. When we try - affirmative action for example - set asides - we are ridiculed. Yet Colin Powell proudly says he is a product of Affirmative Action while Condoleezza Rice can only manage a whisper of her gratitude.

Americans have come a long way and I'm proud! Proof is in the election of Barack Obama by 8 million votes. But there were 58 million voters who turned away from Obama and did that for a reason. Or for several reasons. But I assure you one reason was racism! Pure and simple.

Will we ever get over it? Well, maybe but not soon. Maybe when Jesus comes back? All too many Republicans and Born Agains are stubborn racists. And almost always in denial. And that is not a river in Egypt. That is a large reservoir to draw from. Ever been to a mega-church? Like Ivory Snow, it's 99.44% white.


[edit on 2/2/2009 by donwhite]

Childhood is roughly 18 years, so why do people act like it is a lifetime?Ya, a child might have a really crappy childhood, but there is also the rest if their life that they can do wonderful things. A bad childhood doesn't equal to a bad life and vice a versa.

So does the chance for a bad childhood mean a child should have no chance at all?

Also stop with the religious crap that a pro life person is that way because of religion. There are many other factors dealing with this on a moral and social level too.

OK Dante, Put the baby up for adoption - fine.
There is a waiting list for the adoption of white babies.
Tell me how many non white babies get adopted.
Oh yes, you agree that once the child is born the anti-abortionist forget about it.
Out of sight, out of mind.
So what is your solution to the immediate problem.
You want these babies to be born, but you offer nothing for their care.
Orphanage? On the tax payer of course.
Were you raised in an orphanage?
What kind of a life is that?
What kind of love and nurturing do those kids get?
Consider that perhaps never having been born would have been better.

Bigwhammy, doesn’t want his tax dollars funding abortion.
Does he want his tax dollars paying for 18 years or more of support for those unwanted babies?

Make no mistake about it - the Vatican is a loud and influential voice in all political affairs of the world.

BTW I just read somewhere that the Vatican has a large stake in the manufacture of birth control pills.
The Vatican is also anti-condom.
anti-condom

Kerrichin, I guess you are male. So you think a woman should carry and deliver a child that was the result of rape!! Unphreaking believable. And she should devote 20 years of hard labor supporting and caring it too? What kind of love do you think she would have toward this child?
Oh - put it up for adoption. Hey kerri - it’s a black baby -- who will adopt it?
Get REAL!!

Oh Saint - there you are…no reply from you yet. What do you think of mass sterilization to end abortion? That should make you happy, at least until we can get young unmarried folks to stop having sex.

Originally posted by donwhite

Americans have come a long way, proof is in the election of Barack Obama by 8 million votes. But the 58 million voters who turned away from Obama did that for a reason. Or for several reasons. But I assure you one reason was racism! Pure and simple.

Hmm, with 1/2 of the country Republican, maybe those 58 million voted for their party?

Also to get this kind of on track, how does abortion play into the black genicide taking place in America with around 40% of abortions coming from black women? When we are talking 15% of the population that account for 40% of abortions, I would say abortions have harmed the black community quite harshly.

keep your babyFor all those of you who think adoption is the answer to the problem.

I just found this, and I hope you will think really hard on it. It is an article written by and adoptee.

"For those promoting adoption, the idea is that it is a gain for the baby or the child. Being surrendered for adoption is not a gain in the least. No amount of money, or a two parent family, nor anything can replace the real and natural mother for adoptees. Nothing can replace the heritage and connections with others in the natural family as well. They won't tell you this but I will - from day one we grieve and are sad to have lost our mothers and are not happy!
Not only are babies sad they are also afraid. We know our mothers, we grow inside their wombs. We hear the music of their hearts, we know their smell, we trust and love them by nature. They are ours, our universe - all that we know, all that we feel, love and are attached to. Adoption takes our universe away. If someone took away all that you love and all that you know how would you feel? "